Author Topic: Will RFC make the 8 in 2013?  (Read 12926 times)

Offline WA Tiger

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14257
  • For We're From Tigerland
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2013, 11:04:43 AM »
lol the hysteria

My original post is very close to the mark of being true and if we lose against Port this season will be over for us.

True....True...IYO, not in the clubs or mine...so how is it true?????

so you reckon  that even if we lose to Port next week which will be 4 losses in a row that we can make the finals? Not a slow flakes chance with our team and the lack of fight they show under adversity.

Ramps I was replying to you regarding the "rebuild on the verge of failure" thread, not on the ramifications of a loss to Port and finals!!!!
DIMMA - You will be held ACCOUNTABLE...

“We are really excited about what we have brought in. We have got great depth of players that can take us where we need to go. We are just putting some cream on the top at the moment,” he said.

"Rucks:
Shaun Hampson is the No.1 man"

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2013, 11:06:41 AM »
lol, id be more concerned about how some posters would respond to 4 straight losses. lock up the sharp implements!

as for the comparisons to other clubs and their rebuilds, none have had to come from as back as us.(When Hardwick took over he was calling the players in every 5-10 minutes at training just to try to get the basics right.) even as they wallow near the bottom they still have a core of players who know what its about. It's why other clubs seem to develop their youngsters quicker or better than us ( currently im talking about here, not in the past where we stuffed everything up). The kids just slot into a well drilled machine. they learn and get carried by the older experienced players.

a luxury we dont have as we still havent built that core of players. in fact we are expecting our youngsters to fast track to make this core.

Hardwick has done what he was employed to do to this stage and has done a good a job as reasonable could be expected.

Whether he is the bloke to take us on the next step of the journey is another matter. But if he is replaced in the near future the rebuild wont have collapsed. A new coach would have something to work with and build on rather having to rebuild again.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

gerkin greg

  • Guest
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2013, 11:17:10 AM »
lol, id be more concerned about how some posters would respond to 4 straight losses. lock up the sharp implements!

as for the comparisons to other clubs and their rebuilds, none have had to come from as back as us.(When Hardwick took over he was calling the players in every 5-10 minutes at training just to try to get the basics right.) even as they wallow near the bottom they still have a core of players who know what its about. It's why other clubs seem to develop their youngsters quicker or better than us ( currently im talking about here, not in the past where we stuffed everything up). The kids just slot into a well drilled machine. they learn and get carried by the older experienced players.

a luxury we dont have as we still havent built that core of players. in fact we are expecting our youngsters to fast track to make this core.

Hardwick has done what he was employed to do to this stage and has done a good a job as reasonable could be expected.

Whether he is the bloke to take us on the next step of the journey is another matter. But if he is replaced in the near future the rebuild wont have collapsed. A new coach would have something to work with and build on rather having to rebuild again.

Agree with this bloke.

Don't think Dimma is the man though and if he can't scrape us into finals this year it should be adios mofo and hook up with Choco or Roos

Offline tigs2011

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 5517
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2013, 12:02:02 PM »
We should still be playing the kids just quietly.  :whistle

Offline Judge Roughneck

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11132
  • Sir
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2013, 12:10:24 PM »
We should still be playing the kids just quietly.  :whistle

This is the problem.

Its looking very Wallace like. The current situation.

Offline Tigeritis™©®

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9657
  • Richmond, Premiers 2017.2019.2020
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 12:28:34 PM »
Ramps is a good poster who sees it as it is and makes a call on it. Hard not to agree with him, although i agree with WP, young kids need time to develop. I cant understand the angst toward griffiths, i mean if Macca can play his role in the F50 so can Griffiths. Give him a game FFS, its not as if our forward line is working wonders at the minute.

WP good clubs find a way to win without their leaders having a impact. Watson GWS, Swan vrs Saints. etc etc

Leaders stepping up had nothing to do with Hackson getting gifted games and watching Grigg get selected week after week after producing that rubbish he did on saturday night. Does anyone in their right mind think he is anything but a good depth player? I ask this question because id like to know if anyone does and if so what does he provide.
Lids not running hard enough at the contest. Same mistakes against freo in the last minute.
This is basic stuff that our players are not smart enough to comprehend. Against weak opposition like the dees in a few weeks for sure but not against quality.

Comibination of poor coaching, bad management and lack of leadership.
Agreed.  :thumbsup
Top post.
And spot on WP, our leaders have let us down terribly in the last two weeks.
The fact that the club has been banging on during the preseason comp how they've trained for icing a close game but we still see the same mistakes. It light of this what happened against freo is much much worse than anything that happened last year.
Against Geelong once again we see easy goals kicked during red time when its paramount that we hold possession, slow the game down and close out the quarter with a good lead.
Our leaders have let us down.
Our players are dumb.
The coaching staff are lying to us.
Things need to turn around and turn around quickly.
The time is now. We have to make finals they've told us over and over.
Stop talking BS and start showing us some fight.
The leaders must take responsibility & Lead the rest to follow.
Our time us now not next year. Fight for a place in finals and don't take any prisoners.


....And Play Griff forward FFS!!!!
The club that keeps giving.

Offline wayne

  • Fame of Hall
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 8464
  • In Absentia
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2013, 12:31:24 PM »
I would only be saying it is a failure if Cotch, Jack, Deledio and Martin were all 30+ years old and we hadn't made finals at all while they have been at the club.

All our guns are still very young, we've got kids running around in the VFL showing promise, I think we'll be ok.

After the Freo game I was livid, we missed a good opportunity and I think we lost the game instead of them winning it.

The Geelong game, while unhappy about the fade out, they were just too good, too experienced and they punish any little mistake.
And you may not think I care for you
When you know down inside that I really do

Offline WilliamPowell

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 40321
  • Better to ignore a fool than encourage one
    • One Eyed Richmond
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2013, 12:39:32 PM »
Leaders stepping up had nothing to do with Hackson getting gifted games and watching Grigg get selected week after week after producing that rubbish he did on saturday night. Does anyone in their right mind think he is anything but a good depth player? I ask this question because id like to know if anyone does and if so what does he provide.
Lids not running hard enough at the contest. Same mistakes against freo in the last minute.
This is basic stuff that our players are not smart enough to comprehend. Against weak opposition like the dees in a few weeks for sure but not against quality.

daniel, I've been one of the biggest critics of Grigg since he came to the Club, especially his apparent refusal to go in for hard ball on the odd ocassion it is required of him. But I had people tell me last year that I was being harsh because going in for a hardball wasn't his job, his role was to be hard outside runner. And while I accept that, it is fair to say he isn't running at the moment either, he is jogging along (actually it's more like floating along) = not good enough

As for Jackson I given up being interested in his performances and getting "angry" because quite simply he isn't going to be dropped because the coaches love him for reasons that I have never understood. So whether it is right or wrong (and it's wrong BTW) it is the way it is so there is no point in raising it.

But back on leadership, although I agree with your comment about good sides not relying on leaders to find ways to win; I'd preface it by saying the key words are "good sides" do that. And we aren't there yet so IMV our reliance on our leaders to show the way is far more important.
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2013, 12:47:44 PM »
part of the reason why good sides are good is leadership. the more players that display leadership qualities, the better off you are.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline unplugged

  • Premiership Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
  • For We're From Tigerland
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 01:05:16 PM »
Our junior recruitment has been very poor. But where we had no mid-age players in the past, we have a plethora to choose from now.
This team has good depth, and while many of these players aren't superstars and have limitations, they all have strengths.
The problem that has been exposed in the last three weeks is that this dud coach likes to play to our lists weaknesses and not our strengths.

Where we have had dominance in games, freo first quarter, geelong first half, and were highly competitive, collingwood first half, our weaknesses were exposed by poor coaching.

Collingwood game.  Obrien loose for the first half but totally free in the third quarter when we went form one on one footy to a loose man.  Collingwood played keepings off that quarter and lesson the football community took from that match was that we were a poor tackling side. Overlapping free players and uncontested possession was the problem, you can't tackle someone 10 feet away.  Thus we fought it out in the last quarter when it was man on man but Collingwood were too difficult an opponent to overrun once you have given them the game.

Freo was the same, loose man, uncontested footy killed us in the second and third quarters after we had fought so hard one on one to gain dominance in the first.  The defensive footy didn't end until the last quarter when we finally realised the only chance we had of winning was to attack and not chip chip over possess and constantly turn the ball over.

Against Geelong, it was the skill errors from the chip chip defensive game plan that finished off a promising first half and then the player frustration that boiled over seeing they were going to lose another game that they should be winning.  Frustration that despite their best efforts, Hardwick had replaced Deledio with Edwards, Cotchin was struggling, the massive dud Vickery went off, Maric could barely walk and Tuck was in the reserves.  They just didn't have anything left in the tank.  Doesn't matter how good your list is, if you don't convert, if you gift goals to the opposition, eventually you get disheartened and run out of energy to go again for another negative result.

Is the rebuild on the verge of failure.  If we can't develop some young talent, then its going to be challenging.  If we don't get rid of Hardwick, his favourtism, his chip chip defensive game plan that doesn't suit our playing list, his desire to play a loose man to support that game plan when we don't have anyone who can play that role effectively, then it will fail.  If we keep using our best players, Riewoldt, Deledio etc as decoys, then surely we will fail.

But with an attacking game plan where they don't overuse the ball and move it quickly to our forwards, and our defenders aren't constantly having to pin point chip passes but their mistakes are from 50m kicks to contests, and our midfielders and forwards can attack the ball and not have to worry about whatever stupidity Hardwick inflicts upon them this week, then this side is strong enough to compete with any club in the afl and its been built from very little and their is a passion to succeed born from years of frustration.  There is potential for failure but equally there is potential for success.  What the club needs is a coach that can get the most out of this playing list on match day.

Offline MADTIGER2010

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 1335
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 01:26:56 PM »
PACK OF LOSERS  8)

Offline Stripes

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4264
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2013, 02:29:43 PM »
Depth. We are starting to gain list depth but we need more on field depth.

Are we on the verge of rebuild failure - not in my opinion, not yet anyway. We are still developing players to fill roles and push for selection.

The on field depth issue is where we are exposed by quality teams. Shut Jack, Lids and Cotchin out of the game and we fail. We fail because 1) we have no players close to their talents to replace them but also 2)we are over reliant on them and don't look for other options.

If Jack is swamped bu defenders we keep kicking it to him. If Cotch is not winning the ball out of the middle we don't have another player who steps up to take on his role to anywhere near the same result. If Lids is tagged out of the game we still look for his run rather than look to other players to give us the meters gained that he does.

We need to keep giving our other forwards more responsibility. We need players such as Foley, Conca and Tigger to step up when Cotch can not perform. The gap between him and them are too large at present. Martin needs to take up Lids roll when Lids is blanketed.

I do agree with WP regarding our leadership. Our leaders are too inexperienced to direct play on the field at the moment.

Hellenic Tiger

  • Guest
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 02:34:27 PM »
When blokes like Jackson, White, Grigg in the 22 when we have kids that need the game time for development. When the same blokes fail time and time again for two regimes and still get a game ahead of kids like Elton, Dea, Griff, Batch then that hurts.

I can cop losing with kids and losing showing some fight and spirit with kids but when the same old failures keep on failing that is what hurts.

Where are our leaders. Even Cotch has caught the poison it seems.

The rebuild has not failed yet but selecting blokes on a list who have failed before ain't helping the rebuild either.

Reminds me of 1997 to 2001. Middle of the road with kids languishing in the ressies while Ben Moore, Ben Harrison, Lionel Proctor, Craig Biddiscombe, Adam Houlihan were getting games gifted.

No point lauding your depth if you are not going to use it.

Offline Stripes

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4264
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 03:09:59 PM »
I agree Tucker but at the same time imo we shouldn't be gifted kids games only to dash their confidence. I wouldn't give players such as McIntosh, McDonough, Elton or Williams a gig yet. McBean is probably in a similar boat even though he has been performing against big bodied players in the VFL so far this season.

Other players like Arnot, Astbury, Griffiths and even Darrou and Verrier probably do need more chances but only on the back of consistent form.

Our depth players now currently include Tuck, Foley, A.Edwards, the Big O, Lonegan and Nahas. Each and every one of them can fill a void. Not to the same level as the player they would be replacing (with the exception of Foley and Tuck imo) but bringing them in would not cause a dramatic slide in overall team performance. If on the other hand we bring in an untried youth, the short term drop is almost always noticeable.

Collingwood, Geelong etc only ever bring in a player when they are ready. We need to do the same. Our improvement needs to come not only from the development of our recruits to get them up to AFL standard but probably even more importantly, improve the regular players in the side to be performing at consistent finals-like standard.

Our culture is still not good enough. We need a player driven, non-negotiable drive to succeed.

Hellenic Tiger

  • Guest
Re: Rebuild on the Verge of Failure IMHO
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2013, 03:40:39 PM »
Stripes agreed however a kid like Dea who played footy last year or Batch should play week in week out.
Batch was critically good against Carlton but had a bad one against St Kilda and paid for it immediately. Now as an example if a kid like Batch, Dea, Griff, Elton fail to produce one game and the coach pulls out the old chestnut needs to go back to Coburg because he didn't do this and Jako for example kicks across his body across goals and out on the full preceded by a million Auslick underground dinky kicks and handballs and the coach lauds him as our best player so far this year and still he does not get dropped then we are not looking at depth and midfield.

Depth works if everyone on the list is susceptible to ressies footy not just half a dozen or so revolving types yoyo footballers up and down all the time between ressies and seniors who in the end it's detrimental for them also as they can't get any continuity at the top level so that kills the rebuild anyway. Therefore having everyone susceptible with all posies up for grabs enables you to find the best 22 with continuity and helps you to play.

What I don't get is a bloke gets dropped gets 40 for Coburg comes back to us struggles and the sequence continues and the kid or kids getting in the bests every week at Coburg misses out to Nahas, White and players of these ilk and guess what they fail.

It's not so much we can't develop them it's unless we get mass injuries they play.

Scenario 2001 Coughlan plays the entire year at Richmond and lots of game time and maybe just maybe we may have had 2 or 3 more wins but we are too scared as a club to make a decision like that instead we mix and match the tried and failed types and a generation of kids go to waste.

Play the kids please Dimma.