Matt Thomas [merged]

[Chuck17]

if thomas is such a dud how on earth does he continue to take games off the likes of arnot helbig etc. simply put hes out performed them and earnt his spot. 

That you actually have asked the question is either simple a worry or you really don't follow this club that closely at all.

But to help you out I will literally spell it out for you !

F_A_V_O_U_R_I_T_E_S

Get it? Favourites

Thomas is one, like so many others who continue to be played you know the ones.... the players that you; yourself label as DUDS who continually get gifted games while kids in the VFL named in the best week after week get overlooked... That's not out performing them, it's called playing favourites which has been the one consistent feature at the selection table all season 2014

Not sure about that, I am not a Thomas fan but he has had some rather good games.  I have never seen Arnott preform to anywhere near that level.

[Stripes]

if thomas is such a dud how on earth does he continue to take games off the likes of arnot helbig etc. simply put hes out performed them and earnt his spot. 

That you actually have asked the question is either simple a worry or you really don't follow this club that closely at all.

But to help you out I will literally spell it out for you !

F_A_V_O_U_R_I_T_E_S

Get it? Favourites

Thomas is one, like so many others who continue to be played you know the ones.... the players that you; yourself label as DUDS who continually get gifted games while kids in the VFL named in the best week after week get overlooked... That's not out performing them, it's called playing favourites which has been the one consistent feature at the selection table all season 2014

Not sure about that, I am not a Thomas fan but he has had some rather good games.  I have never seen Arnott preform to anywhere near that level.

WP - I don't want to call you out here but that's simply not true. I went and watched last weeks VFL game and see a couple of others early in the year and the likes of Helbig and Arnot aren't getting games because, simply put, they don't deserve them. Arnot got 24 possessions that game but in all honesty did nothing.

Helbig was Mr Invisible but the player I was most disappointed in was McBean. He kicks a handful of goals every game but he is lazy. He doesn't chase or lead. He could be kicking 10 goals a game if he was fitter and tried more. When his team mates were on the boundary continually screaming out for him to lead, chase, zone and just move I see a problem. They were telling me he doesn't train well and doesn't follow the diet he was set too. Just really disappointing coming from a player who could kill it for us in the future if he can just get his act together.

Thomas may be a favourite but it is because he does all the things that is asked of him. He trains well, never gives up, wins the contested ball and offers leadership through example. He is does not have the best desposal but I would take a player like him every day of the week and twice on Sundays over Helbig, Arnot and McBean who are just not up to it despite what you may have read in post match reviews of VFL games.

[RedanTiger]

WP - I don't want to call you out here but that's simply not true. I went and watched last weeks VFL game and see a couple of others early in the year and the likes of Helbig and Arnot aren't getting games because, simply put, they don't deserve them. Arnot got 24 possessions that game but in all honesty did nothing.

Helbig was Mr Invisible but the player I was most disappointed in was McBean. He kicks a handful of goals every game but he is lazy. He doesn't chase or lead. He could be kicking 10 goals a game if he was fitter and tried more. When his team mates were on the boundary continually screaming out for him to lead, chase, zone and just move I see a problem. They were telling me he doesn't train well and doesn't follow the diet he was set too. Just really disappointing coming from a player who could kill it for us in the future if he can just get his act together.

Thomas may be a favourite but it is because he does all the things that is asked of him. He trains well, never gives up, wins the contested ball and offers leadership through example. He is does not have the best desposal but I would take a player like him every day of the week and twice on Sundays over Helbig, Arnot and McBean who are just not up to it despite what you may have read in post match reviews of VFL games.

So he's not the messiah, he's just a very naughty boy.

Woops, speaking the truth to zealots is going to get you in a lot of trouble, Stripes.
It was the last thing most had left to hang on to - hope for the future.

[WilliamPowell]

WP - I don't want to call you out here but that's simply not true. I went and watched last weeks VFL game and see a couple of others early in the year and the likes of Helbig and Arnot aren't getting games because, simply put, they don't deserve them. Arnot got 24 possessions that game but in all honesty did nothing.

Helbig was Mr Invisible but the player I was most disappointed in was McBean. He kicks a handful of goals every game but he is lazy. He doesn't chase or lead. He could be kicking 10 goals a game if he was fitter and tried more. When his team mates were on the boundary continually screaming out for him to lead, chase, zone and just move I see a problem. They were telling me he doesn't train well and doesn't follow the diet he was set too. Just really disappointing coming from a player who could kill it for us in the future if he can just get his act together.

Thomas may be a favourite but it is because he does all the things that is asked of him. He trains well, never gives up, wins the contested ball and offers leadership through example. He is does not have the best desposal but I would take a player like him every day of the week and twice on Sundays over Helbig, Arnot and McBean who are just not up to it despite what you may have read in post match reviews of VFL games.

With respect Stripes

I am not talking about last week's VFL game and to single out the last week or the last couple (read 5 weeks) is simply not fair because it glosses over the problem that's been playing favourites and gifting games in 2014.

Personally, I was refering to what has happened over the entire season. Players have been gifted games when they shouldn't have.

But if you want to look at parts of the season in isolation we can do that too

How about the first 10 weeks for starters? We had so many under performing players during that period it wasn't funny.

Did any of the favourites in that period get dropped based on their poor form eg the Houli's, Grigg's, Edwards', Ellis'(and first half of the year he was terrible - improved the last 6 or so weeks) , Newmans, Chaplin?

Answer is NO.

But did we have any blokes consistently playing well, getting named in the bests week after week and not getting games?

Answer is YEP. 

Biggest case in point is one Anthony Miles. We could have promoted him anytime prior to the season and we didn't. We stuck with playing favourites. And BTW I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree that he offers a helluva lot more than Thomas.

If you want to look at the last 10 weeks well I'd argue that playing favourites has continued. Newman misses what was it 5-6 weeks and he comes straight back in over the likes of a McDonough who gets shunted backwards and forwards when a favourite is suddenly available. Morris comes straight back in this week. Why? Answer is obvious I would have thought

I am not disputing that a number of our kids in the VFL have dropped off in the last month of so. Helbig & O'Hanlon are the prefect examples for a stretch they were named in the best at VFL level for probably 7-10 weeks and did their good form gain them selection? With the exception of O'Hanlon's 25 minute appearance the answer is a resounding NO. All we do is just put a Newman, Morris straight back in.

I've said it before what message does this send to these kids?

I am still amazed that Grigg was made to come back via the VFL. First time it's happened and I applaud them for it because that's the way it should be. Sadly for us it is the exception rather than the norm

[Chuck17]

WP - I don't want to call you out here but that's simply not true. I went and watched last weeks VFL game and see a couple of others early in the year and the likes of Helbig and Arnot aren't getting games because, simply put, they don't deserve them. Arnot got 24 possessions that game but in all honesty did nothing.

Helbig was Mr Invisible but the player I was most disappointed in was McBean. He kicks a handful of goals every game but he is lazy. He doesn't chase or lead. He could be kicking 10 goals a game if he was fitter and tried more. When his team mates were on the boundary continually screaming out for him to lead, chase, zone and just move I see a problem. They were telling me he doesn't train well and doesn't follow the diet he was set too. Just really disappointing coming from a player who could kill it for us in the future if he can just get his act together.

Thomas may be a favourite but it is because he does all the things that is asked of him. He trains well, never gives up, wins the contested ball and offers leadership through example. He is does not have the best desposal but I would take a player like him every day of the week and twice on Sundays over Helbig, Arnot and McBean who are just not up to it despite what you may have read in post match reviews of VFL games.

With respect Stripes

I am not talking about last week's VFL game and to single out the last week or the last couple (read 5 weeks) is simply not fair because it glosses over the problem that's been playing favourites and gifting games in 2014.

Personally, I was refering to what has happened over the entire season. Players have been gifted games when they shouldn't have.

But if you want to look at parts of the season in isolation we can do that too

How about the first 10 weeks for starters? We had so many under performing players during that period it wasn't funny.

Did any of the favourites in that period get dropped based on their poor form eg the Houli's, Grigg's, Edwards', Ellis'(and first half of the year he was terrible - improved the last 6 or so weeks) , Newmans, Chaplin?

Answer is NO.

But did we have any blokes consistently playing well, getting named in the bests week after week and not getting games?

Answer is YEP. 

Biggest case in point is one Anthony Miles. We could have promoted him anytime prior to the season and we didn't. We stuck with playing favourites. And BTW I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree that he offers a helluva lot more than Thomas.

If you want to look at the last 10 weeks well I'd argue that playing favourites has continued. Newman misses what was it 5-6 weeks and he comes straight back in over the likes of a McDonough who gets shunted backwards and forwards when a favourite is suddenly available. Morris comes straight back in this week. Why? Answer is obvious I would have thought

I am not disputing that a number of our kids in the VFL have dropped off in the last month of so. Helbig & O'Hanlon are the prefect examples for a stretch they were named in the best at VFL level for probably 7-10 weeks and did their good form gain them selection? With the exception of O'Hanlon's 25 minute appearance the answer is a resounding NO. All we do is just put a Newman, Morris straight back in.

I've said it before what message does this send to these kids?

I am still amazed that Grigg was made to come back via the VFL. First time it's happened and I applaud them for it because that's the way it should be. Sadly for us it is the exception rather than the norm

You have gone off track a bit, the discussion was around Thomas and why he is getting game instead of Arnott, Helbig etc etc

Good of you to bring Grigg into it though, very under appreciated footballer

[Stripes]

I am not talking about last week's VFL game and to single out the last week or the last couple (read 5 weeks) is simply not fair because it glosses over the problem that's been playing favourites and gifting games in 2014.

Personally, I was refering to what has happened over the entire season. Players have been gifted games when they shouldn't have.

I think this is the problem WP. What the club rates and what the outside observer rates are two entirely different things. Each of these VFL players are positioned, developed and judged according to a specific role. Infact so are the AFL players. Defensive efforts are paramount. Helbig and Arnot may have been regularly mentioned in the teams best players but they have really been the best of the worst so to speak. We haven't had a unstoppable VFL team by any stretch of the imagination and a large part of this is because players have not been accountable to their role, to the game plan and to the team.

Thomas is getting a game over these guys because when rated across a whole season he fulfills his role. He trains hard, leads through word and deed and never gives up. That would make him a coach favourite no doubt.

But if you want to look at parts of the season in isolation we can do that too

How about the first 10 weeks for starters? We had so many under performing players during that period it wasn't funny.

Did any of the favourites in that period get dropped based on their poor form eg the Houli's, Grigg's, Edwards', Ellis'(and first half of the year he was terrible - improved the last 6 or so weeks) , Newmans, Chaplin?

Why do you think these guys are 'favourites'? I think it is because they fill their role/job. Five of the six players you just named are outside ball users. The reason they looked ordinary is because we weren't winning the contested/inside ball but rather than point the finger at our inside players it seems that these players are easy targets. It is no coincidence that now that we are winning the ball around stoppages that Ellis, Houli, Edwards etc are all regained their 2013 form (if not better in the case of Ellis). They are not 'favourites' but they are proven role players.

But did we have any blokes consistently playing well, getting named in the bests week after week and not getting games?

Answer is YEP. 

Biggest case in point is one Anthony Miles. We could have promoted him anytime prior to the season and we didn't. We stuck with playing favourites. And BTW I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree that he offers a helluva lot more than Thomas.

Being named as the best of a poor team doesn't mean too much. Rate the players based on their responsibilities and defensive efforts. Helbig, Arnot and McBean (through Hampson into that mix too) are not in the team because their defensive game is not strong enough. No ability to zone and pressure or mindset to chase and win the contested ball = no AFL game.

Miles is an upgrade on ability to Thomas imho but that is the exact reason he has been upgraded and is now a required player because of his attitude, ability to win the ball and fill a role in the side. The exact same reason why Thomas is also in the side winning the contested ball right along side him.

If you want to look at the last 10 weeks well I'd argue that playing favourites has continued. Newman misses what was it 5-6 weeks and he comes straight back in over the likes of a McDonough who gets shunted backwards and forwards when a favourite is suddenly available. Morris comes straight back in this week. Why? Answer is obvious I would have thought

McDonough was not up to AFL standard. Newman offer more at this stage. He offers leadership which is an area we are sorely lacking at present and especially in his absence. He also acts like an on field coach and fills his role. If there are two players fighting for a spot in the team of similar ability with one a team leader with experience on his side, I'd pick Newman every time. Call it favourite or call it common-sense.

I am not disputing that a number of our kids in the VFL have dropped off in the last month of so. Helbig & O'Hanlon are the prefect examples for a stretch they were named in the best at VFL level for probably 7-10 weeks and did their good form gain them selection? With the exception of O'Hanlon's 25 minute appearance the answer is a resounding NO. All we do is just put a Newman, Morris straight back in.

I agree that we do need to give the kids more of a stretch of games.

I've said it before what message does this send to these kids?

I am still amazed that Grigg was made to come back via the VFL. First time it's happened and I applaud them for it because that's the way it should be. Sadly for us it is the exception rather than the norm

I think the message is clear - play the role you are given to a high, consistent standard plus focus on team defense first and you will earn a spot in the side. Don't tick all the boxes and you will be overlooked. Helbig and McBean aren't ticking all the boxes at the moment and I feel it would be a mistake to play them before they do. Thomas on the other hand is ticking all the right boxes at present.

If we play the kids over Thomas before they have ticked all the right boxes what sort of message would that be sending to these kids? 

[WilliamPowell]

I think this is the problem WP. What the club rates and what the outside observer rates are two entirely different things. Each of these VFL players are positioned, developed and judged according to a specific role. Infact so are the AFL players. Defensive efforts are paramount. Helbig and Arnot may have been regularly mentioned in the teams best players but they have really been the best of the worst so to speak. We haven't had a unstoppable VFL team by any stretch of the imagination and a large part of this is because players have not been accountable to their role, to the game plan and to the team.

Thomas is getting a game over these guys because when rated across a whole season he fulfills his role. He trains hard, leads through word and deed and never gives up. That would make him a coach favourite no doubt.

I undestand that what we rate and what coaches rate are different.

But when you sit in pre-match functions and get told that Player X is playing great at VFL and is next in line for the AFL side but when an opportunity present but are constantly overlooked then sorry it's near on impossible not to question what the hell is going on

On one hand you suggest that Thomas is fulfilling his role but the kids in the VFL aren't? How do you justify that? Simply by Thomas getting games

Why do you think these guys are 'favourites'? I think it is because they fill their role/job. Five of the six players you just named are outside ball users. The reason they looked ordinary is because we weren't winning the contested/inside ball but rather than point the finger at our inside players it seems that these players are easy targets. It is no coincidence that now that we are winning the ball around stoppages that Ellis, Houli, Edwards etc are all regained their 2013 form (if not better in the case of Ellis). They are not 'favourites' but they are proven role players.

If you seriously beleive that the under performers were not getting gifted games earlier in the season then no one will convince you otherwise. Griffiths' form went down the tiolet and he got dropped, Chaplin's form was woeful but he continued to be played. Shouldn't the same rules apply to all players, it shouldn't be about reputation

So sorry Stripes by playing blokes out of form becaus eof past deeds then you are playing fovourites. BTW comments by our Coach on a week by week basis prove that they are.

Being named as the best of a poor team doesn't mean too much. Rate the players based on their responsibilities and defensive efforts. Helbig, Arnot and McBean (through Hampson into that mix too) are not in the team because their defensive game is not strong enough. No ability to zone and pressure or mindset to chase and win the contested ball = no AFL game.

Miles is an upgrade on ability to Thomas imho but that is the exact reason he has been upgraded and is now a required player because of his attitude, ability to win the ball and fill a role in the side. The exact same reason why Thomas is also in the side winning the contested ball right along side him.

So playing well in poor team doens't mean much unless you are Miles? He was playing well (exceptionally well in a poor side) and he deserved his chance but others don't

Ok

McDonough was not up to AFL standard. Newman offer more at this stage. He offers leadership which is an area we are sorely lacking at present and especially in his absence. He also acts like an on field coach and fills his role. If there are two players fighting for a spot in the team of similar ability with one a team leader with experience on his side, I'd pick Newman every time. Call it favourite or call it common-sense.

I call it playing favourites. If it is good enough for a Brownlow medalist to come back via the VFL it should be could enough for guy who currently being shown up by a game that speed wise seems to have passed him by. a good leader would have said "i'll come back via the VFL"

I think the message is clear - play the role you are given to a high, consistent standard plus focus on team defense first and you will earn a spot in the side. Don't tick all the boxes and you will be overlooked. Helbig and McBean aren't ticking all the boxes at the moment and I feel it would be a mistake to play them before they do. Thomas on the other hand is ticking all the right boxes at present.

If we play the kids over Thomas before they have ticked all the right boxes what sort of message would that be sending to these kids? 

And what if they have done all those things? ticked all of those boxes, been told by their coaches they're doing all the right things? What about when they were ticking all the boxes and still getting overlooked.

So I'll say it again that's the issue the message obviously isn't clear. We have certain rules for one group of players and another set of rules for others

And I'll just have to leave it at that

[Diocletian]

The only kid Thomas is better than is Helbig ....and Helbig will probably be as "good" as Thomas when he gets to his age....though he'll probably be starring in a lower league by then, not still stinking it up in the AFL ala Thomas.

Arnot may be no Ablett but he's so much more skillful than Thomas that it's not even a contest ...would like Hardwick to play Thomas in the forward pocket and see how well he goes.

Both those players are still kids and may/will improve - Thomas isn't and won't. Untried kids > proven duds.

...and McBean's (highest goalkicker this year & third highest overall in the VFL, only 4 behind the current leader, despite missing 3 games btw)no lazier than Vickery - except he's 5 years younger and doesn't have a tank yet - what's Vickery's excuse?


As for not gifting games....explain what the likes of Houli & Grigg were doing to deserve to be walk up starts...apart from being liabilties?

[Yeahright]

If you want to look at the last 10 weeks well I'd argue that playing favourites has continued. Newman misses what was it 5-6 weeks and he comes straight back in over the likes of a McDonough who gets shunted backwards and forwards when a favourite is suddenly available. Morris comes straight back in this week. Why? Answer is obvious I would have thought

McDonough was not up to AFL standard. Newman offer more at this stage. He offers leadership which is an area we are sorely lacking at present and especially in his absence. He also acts like an on field coach and fills his role. If there are two players fighting for a spot in the team of similar ability with one a team leader with experience on his side, I'd pick Newman every time. Call it favourite or call it common-sense.

I agree with a lot you said but I can't get my head around this. McDonough has produced what I'd call on par with what Newman has done this season with the added benefit of being young and only in his second year. I could understand the Newman has more leadership therefore deserves a game more argument but I seriously doubt he has much leadership. Never seems to marshall the troops, give directions or pump anyone up and I won't go into him being rushed back into the team not once but twice. The ultimate deciding thing for me (which the coach doesn't agree with) is that the season was shot AND WE SHOULD OF BEING PLAYING THE KIDS!

[Stripes]

The only kid Thomas is better than is Helbig ....and Helbig will probably be as "good" as Thomas when he gets to his age....though he'll probably be starring in a lower league by then, not still stinking it up in the AFL ala Thomas.

So you don't rate Helbig? At the moment I haven't seen anything from his games to warrant a spot in the side. He's playing of the HBF and isn't as good as Houli, Valustin, Dea or Batchelor.

Arnot may be no Ablett but he's so much more skillful than Thomas that it's not even a contest ...would like Hardwick to play Thomas in the forward pocket and see how well he goes.

Arnot is no where near as capable as Thomas at winning the inside ball. All the statistics and evidence points to that. He is tough and strong but he hasn't shown he is an inside ball winner like Thomas has.

Both those players are still kids and may/will improve - Thomas isn't and won't. Untried kids > proven duds.

When they do improve and demonstrate it like Miles did then Thomas will be moved aside. Until then they need to keep working.

...and McBean's (highest goalkicker this year & third highest overall in the VFL, only 4 behind the current leader, despite missing 3 games btw)no lazier than Vickery - except he's 5 years younger and doesn't have a tank yet - what's Vickery's excuse?

Goal kicking is not his problem. This is the same reason I couldn't understand why he wasn't been given a game because he appears to be killing it on the score board. His problem is his defensive game and he is letting his opponent and the other defenders off the hook and allowing them to race the ball out of defense too often. He is not pressuring opponents enough and that is crucial now days as a forward. Vickery was dropped earlier int he year because he was don't the same but he turned that around. McBean still hasn't. McBean hasn't gained the size or additional strength he should have too because he is not following the club dietitians either.

I would love to see Thomas replaced by a better midfielder but at the moment their is no one out their breaking down the door sadly 

As for not gifting games....explain what the likes of Houli & Grigg were doing to deserve to be walk up starts...apart from being liabilties?

I explained this earlier but Grigg and Houli are good role players for us. They need us to be winning the contested ball and feeding it out to them. Grigg needs Miles, Cotch etc to get it out to him while Houli needs Rance and Chaplin typically to get it out to him. They give us the run and spread we need. Without players like Grigg, Houli, Ellis, Lids, etc we would have to rely on long kicks to contests rather than quick ball movement into space. This is what we do best. We can't have a team of Miles and Thomas clones no more than we can have a team of Griggs and Houli's It's all about balance.

[Stripes]

I undestand that what we rate and what coaches rate are different.

But when you sit in pre-match functions and get told that Player X is playing great at VFL and is next in line for the AFL side but when an opportunity present but are constantly overlooked then sorry it's near on impossible not to question what the hell is going on

On one hand you suggest that Thomas is fulfilling his role but the kids in the VFL aren't? How do you justify that? Simply by Thomas getting games

Are you basing your judgement on the VFL 'Bests' each week? With Thomas in the team we are the best contested ball winning side in the league. He is far from being the lone hand here but he is a significant cog.

If you seriously beleive that the under performers were not getting gifted games earlier in the season then no one will convince you otherwise. Griffiths' form went down the tiolet and he got dropped, Chaplin's form was woeful but he continued to be played. Shouldn't the same rules apply to all players, it shouldn't be about reputation

So sorry Stripes by playing blokes out of form becaus eof past deeds then you are playing fovourites. BTW comments by our Coach on a week by week basis prove that they are.

I'm not going to deny that many of them were out of form but the reason for this is because of the absent players around them. Chaplin needs Rance in the backline. His strength is not a one on one but he reads the play beautifully and is always composed when he moves the ball forward. He also marshals the troops in the backline, directing them to their positions. He gives the side experience and leadership. Again he fulfills an important role in the side which others struggle to fill.

Griffiths is fighting for the same role/position as Vickery. On present form Vickery plays the role better. He is more defensive minded in the forwardline and more aggressive when he hits the packs. Griffs a better kick and has a greater leap. I hope he makes it but the reason he was dropped over Chaplin is because someone, Vickery, was playing better at VFL level in his role.

 

So playing well in poor team doens't mean much unless you are Miles? He was playing well (exceptionally well in a poor side) and he deserved his chance but others don't

Ok

You hit the nail on the head - Miles was playing exceptionally well and in a position/role we desperately needed. No Brainer. Helbig and Arnot a vying for positions that other more experienced players are doing a better job than them as AFL level. Miles stood out through his ability when he played VFL like Grigg did last week - Helbig and Arnot don't. McBean does through his offensive talent but falls away defensively. He is the most likely to make it imho.

I call it playing favourites. If it is good enough for a Brownlow medalist to come back via the VFL it should be could enough for guy who currently being shown up by a game that speed wise seems to have passed him by. a good leader would have said "i'll come back via the VFL"

Call it favourites or call it playing a coach directed role consistently well. Earn respect from the coach through hard work and by consistent efforts. These players have earned their spot in the team. The best players are always the coaches favourites and the players who follow the coaches instructions are kept int he side over others who don't. It's fairly simple really.

And what if they have done all those things? ticked all of those boxes, been told by their coaches they're doing all the right things? What about when they were ticking all the boxes and still getting overlooked.

So I'll say it again that's the issue the message obviously isn't clear. We have certain rules for one group of players and another set of rules for others

Who knows? We certainly don't but the evidence seems to be on face value and from the VFL players that the likes of Helbig, Arnot and McBean aren't meeting certain expectations so they aren't playing.

And I'll just have to leave it at that

Always nice have an intelligent debate with you WP! 

[Yeahright]

Took till he's 100th game milestone and to celebrate he finally produced his norm

[Judge Roughneck]

Rance doesn't need Chaplin...

No doubt rance makes Chaplin look better. Cause rance is a gun.

Does Chaplin actilly make rance life easier?

More so than frawley or astbury or Grimes

[Rampstar]

Thomas isnt the future, we have to find someone to help Miles so we can get Cotch more on the outside where he can devastate oppositions.

[Judge Roughneck]

How can you find someone qhwb you don't give a arnot donuts Lennon helbig a chance