Author Topic: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)  (Read 4993 times)

Rampstar

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2014, 04:40:05 PM »
exhibit b

DIDNT know you were an exhibit Alfred. Dont be an apologist for a failed theory Alfreds. In AFL terms Moneyball sucks and deep down in your guts you know it and you know it because our club which is supposed to be the Moneyball Master of the AFL is on its knees at the moment and our finals hopes are going down the peehole. That my friend is Exhibit A and the only conclusive proof that is around at the moment.

MONEYBALL DOESNT WORK IN AFL FOOTY!

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Offline Penelope

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2014, 05:35:22 PM »
exhibit b

DIDNT know you were an exhibit Alfred. Dont be an apologist for a failed theory Alfreds. In AFL terms Moneyball sucks and deep down in your guts you know it and you know it because our club which is supposed to be the Moneyball Master of the AFL is on its knees at the moment and our finals hopes are going down the peehole. That my friend is Exhibit A and the only conclusive proof that is around at the moment.

MONEYBALL DOESNT WORK IN AFL FOOTY!
not being an apologist, just saying that most people have no idea what it actually is, but that doesnt stop them from making shallow staements as if they were definitive, while not really knowing what the are talking about.

how can you scream at me that money ball doesnt work in AFL, when you dont know any more about it than that what you have seen in a hollywood movie?

under Roos, Sydney used moneyball principles to have great success, but i suppose that was good luck rather good management.

stuff me, you coul pick anything richmond are doing at the moment, including even turning up to play, and say that is conclusive proof it doesnt work.

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Rampstar

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2014, 05:55:44 PM »
exhibit b

DIDNT know you were an exhibit Alfred. Dont be an apologist for a failed theory Alfreds. In AFL terms Moneyball sucks and deep down in your guts you know it and you know it because our club which is supposed to be the Moneyball Master of the AFL is on its knees at the moment and our finals hopes are going down the peehole. That my friend is Exhibit A and the only conclusive proof that is around at the moment.

MONEYBALL DOESNT WORK IN AFL FOOTY!
not being an apologist, just saying that most people have no idea what it actually is, but that doesnt stop them from making shallow staements as if they were definitive, while not really knowing what the are talking about.

how can you scream at me that money ball doesnt work in AFL, when you dont know any more about it than that what you have seen in a hollywood movie?

under Roos, Sydney used moneyball principles to have great success, but i suppose that was good luck rather good management.

stuff me, you coul pick anything richmond are doing at the moment, including even turning up to play, and say that is conclusive proof it doesnt work.

to be honest the way we are playing Id rather we went for a forfeit by not showing up  ;D

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2014, 06:52:29 PM »
Agree that this guy is a bandwagoning flog.

However reality is that after the last draft most of us were questioning only taking one kid with all the rest being recycled players.

I really reckon that the RFC have taken it too far and got carried away with past "success in Houli and Grigg"
most of you geez thats a new take on things. most of you were as usual defending the club and its methods at all costs.


Offline Chuck17

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2014, 07:07:05 PM »
Agree that this guy is a bandwagoning flog.

However reality is that after the last draft most of us were questioning only taking one kid with all the rest being recycled players.

I really reckon that the RFC have taken it too far and got carried away with past "success in Houli and Grigg"
most of you geez thats a new take on things. most of you were as usual defending the club and its methods at all costs.

Not this little duck

the claw

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2014, 07:17:35 PM »
Fox Footy expert David King runs the rule over Richmond’s recycled list looking to contend in 2014
Herald-Sun
April 16, 2014 9:00PM


LIST management and recruiting are inexact sciences.

Knowing what stage you’re at is the single most important assessment at AFL clubs. All decisions are streamlined around the differing phases from rebuild to premiership launch. Richmond faces some very interesting and confronting decisions at seasons end, because under Hardwick they’ve steadily improved from six wins in 2010, to eight in 2011, to 10 in 2012 and to 15 last year.

A step backwards without the promotion of youth would be a significant setback.



http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/fox-footy-expert-david-king-runs-the-rule-over-richmonds-recycled-list-looking-to-contend-in-2014/story-fndv7pj3-1226886785519?from=trendinglinks
damn right knowing what stage your list is at is the be all end all in these things.  but as has been argued the win loss ledger is not the be all end all barometer in judging where your list is at. some of us have labelled the list  a middling list yet we we ignored the long term.

no list managment is not an inexact science hes wrong in this .  recruiting can be inexact but there are many ways to minimise the risk.

the types of players we have taken have in the main  failed at other clubs and come with pretty general weaknesses. we arent targeting these blokes for their quality but to perform a role and fill a gap in the list  immediately.
in taking these types you should have a junior already in your system or draft one to take care of the long term needs of the list. we take these mature retreads knowing damn well we may have to upgrade on them as well down the track.
the most obvious example of filling a need in the short term but failing to look after the long term is with our ruckmen maric then orren now hampson and not one junior even on the rookie list.

there is no way in the world that we have got list management right but its not so much to do with the retreads, its the failure to always keep the longer term in mind and what it takes  to build.
not enogh kpp and tall numbers knowing we are shallow. not enough genuine mids it goes on on and on.
once again  the media are coming around to exactly what a few  of us have been saying.
wht annoys though there is a place and we have had a need to take mature players and we will in the future.  its about balance and cost  and value adding but its also about giving yourself a chance to get quality players or even just plain good long term players as well.

just to finish we had a chance to target quality players for next to nothing in terms of picks and have chosen not to. imo we have a better chance taking state league players than delisted players straight of someone elses list.
for me no matter where you take the player they all should meet some basic criteria and tick enough boxes i cant say we have done this.

Offline The Big Richo

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2014, 07:43:38 PM »
It doesn't matter what flog name you give it, when you recruit exposed hacks from other clubs like Edwards, Hampson, Stephenson and Petterd then you are poohouse at recruiting.
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Offline TigerLand

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2014, 10:56:24 PM »
Al, if you're the expert on money ball and we are all too stupid to carry your AFL record then why don't u explain moneyball for us all...

'Moneyball' term is used here to define our gutless strategy of replacing (x) amount of D Grade players and replacing them with already failed and unwanted C Grade players with little effort or stress - thus improving the list bit by bit. The theory by Michael Lewis for baseball with no salay cap can't be compared to AFL. The term is used because of its similarities.

Nevertheless I'm interested in your expertise in it since we all have no idea.



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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2014, 02:02:18 PM »
Al, if you're the expert on money ball and we are all too stupid to carry your AFL record then why don't u explain moneyball for us all...

'Moneyball' term is used here to define our gutless strategy of replacing (x) amount of D Grade players and replacing them with already failed and unwanted C Grade players with little effort or stress - thus improving the list bit by bit. The theory by Michael Lewis for baseball with no salay cap can't be compared to AFL. The term is used because of its similarities.

Nevertheless I'm interested in your expertise in it since we all have no idea.
simple pope
read the book and then we can attempt a mature discussion.

why should i wast my time trying to educate those that have no interest in knowledge?

i never claim to be an expert, the only reason i understand what moneyball is, how it works, and why it worked for the Athletics is because i read the actual book.

before that i was ignorant as the rest, i just didn't try to make out i knew anything about it.

There's nothing special about not not wishing to remain ignorant, id have thought.
the only aspect that actually requires any brain power is working out which parts could actually apply to other sports and the limitations, but first you need an understanding of what, how and why.

i never said or hinted people were too stupid,either, just ignorant, there's a big difference. In saying that, forming strong opinions on something you have no knowledge about is closer to stupid than smart, but don't let that worry you, it seems to be pretty common.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline tigs2011

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2014, 02:12:09 PM »
Agree that this guy is a bandwagoning flog.

However reality is that after the last draft most of us were questioning only taking one kid with all the rest being recycled players.

I really reckon that the RFC have taken it too far and got carried away with past "success in Houli and Grigg"
most of you geez thats a new take on things. most of you were as usual defending the club and its methods at all costs.
Probably because the club said they'd just be back-ups. Instead they became walk-up starts.  :banghead :banghead

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2014, 02:43:41 PM »
Al, the purpose of a forum is to discuss. If you're going to clock up post numbers by calling out that people are ignorant without basing it on an opinion or fact than you're wasting everyone's time.

Nobody needs to read the book, the internet was invented long ago with plenty of information for anyone not up to Al's standard.

For the purpose of discussion, the recruiting theory our club has followed over the past 3-4 years has come to a 'mid table' head of recycled players not going beyond a certain point of development. Whether it is defined as 'Moneyball', 'Sloppyseconds', 'Topping Up' it doesn't matter. By all means discuss and have an opinion on that instead of nick picking definition of terms.
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Offline Francois Jackson

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2014, 02:55:39 PM »
Spot on Pope

We best go find that book to further our knowledge
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Offline Diocletian

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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2014, 04:24:40 PM »
Al pologist knows more because read a book once.....funny stuff....

If you can't see how moneyball has failed and why it doesn't translate to Australian Rules you're a fool. The "good players but injury -prone" part of the theory should be enough on it's own to tell you why.  How many senior games you really think Chris Knights will actually end up playing for us? Then there's the "exotic locations" part of the theory (don't believe that was in the movie). How many countries play baseball to a high level compared to Australian Football? (to be fair we haven't used that aspect - yet-  but that's what the international rookie list, which falls outside the cap and has been around for years,  is for)) there's the salary cap. Even taking the expansion team concessions into account how many AFL clubs can actually spend 10-20 x on their playing list as smaller clubs like the New York Yankees & Boston Red Sox can compared to the Oakland A's & Minnesota Twins in the MLB? None because they're not allowed and can only spend the same. That's just three examples without even trying.


...and Sydney never officially used "moneyball"....they've been taking recycled players for most of their existence, long before it suddenly became a cool "cutting edge" thing because yanks did it, gave it a snappy name, wrote a book & Hollywood made a crappy movie about it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 05:24:52 PM by Diocletian »
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Re: Tigers pin hopes on Moneyball buys (David King in Herald-Sun)
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2014, 04:27:54 PM »
David king is a malaka.
Had us finishing 6th in 2012 the week we beaten Hawthorn by 10 goals.