Newman and Batch

[big tone]

So if Cotch plays well (named our best) and leads the side well for the entire game but misses 2 goals his leadership for the entire game is questioned?

Hmmmm double standards perhaps?

Ellis was named in our best as well and you like me reckon he wasn't in our best, nowhere near it

But in the case of Ellis the named best are wrong

but in the case of Cotchin they are always Right; can never be wrong?

Not sure you can have it both ways

Just because he is our best player doesn't mean Cotchin cannot be criticised like any other player

Granted being captain there is a greater focus but that's because being captain he has greater responsibility. and that's why yesterday's misses are so hard to take.

People are bashing Houli for his stupid brain fade (rightly), Martin for his misses, why not Cotchin, he can't be immune to the same criticism

What? Double standards?
I think Cotch played well and lead well. He missed a couple of goals but as I said everybody does. It doesn't mean he wasn't a good leader. Saying he was named in the best was just backing up my argument that he actually played well..
I don't think Ellis played well and am very surprised he was named in the best, not sure how one has anything to do with the other, especially when you agree.
We are talking about leadership, and every week if we loose you question the leaders. It's way to simplistic and I'm sure you know that.
If it wasn't for Cotch, Lids, Rance, Jack, Dusty and for a while Maric, we would be a bottom 4 side. May want to keep that in mind every time you question them.

[WilliamPowell]

What? Double standards?
I think Cotch played well and lead well. He missed a couple of goals but as I said everybody does. It doesn't mean he wasn't a good leader. Saying he was named in the best was just backing up my argument that he actually played well..
I don't think Ellis played well and am very surprised he was named in the best, not sure how one has anything to do with the other, especially when you agree.

Double standards because you think like me Ellis wasn't in the best so clearly you believe that part of the bests was wrong

I don't think Cotchin played that well, crucial moment he let himself & his side down. I don't think he was one of the bests and you do and that's your right. But you used that him being named in the best was enough to back your argument that he was one of our best.

When you disagree with the best they are wrong but when you agree they are right...

Yes I am very critical of our leaders when they go missing and they go missing a lot, yes they are young I get that but they are still the leaders.

As leaders their job is lead, set an example and when things are crap attempt to drag the team along; to get them going. When your captain misses a set shot 30 odd metres out at a crucial time in the game then he should be criticised.

And let's not forget that people who know a bit more than me (former AFL captains) are highly critical of his misses than me and I reckon their collective views carry some weight.

We lost 2 games earlier in the year that we shouldn't of that will likely cause us to miss top 4 and what do those 2 losses have in common? Our leaders going missing at crunch time.

Simplistic? No, like it or not the expectations are greater on those players (rightly) because they are the leaders. And just because they are leaders doesn't mean they are immune from criticism at the same level as the easy targets

[Francois Jackson]

On the money WP. I would argue the miss from 30 metres is as bad a brain fade than Houlis.

Captain missing at a vital time was shocking and not for the first time.

[big tone]

What? Double standards?
I think Cotch played well and lead well. He missed a couple of goals but as I said everybody does. It doesn't mean he wasn't a good leader. Saying he was named in the best was just backing up my argument that he actually played well..
I don't think Ellis played well and am very surprised he was named in the best, not sure how one has anything to do with the other, especially when you agree.

Double standards because you think like me Ellis wasn't in the best so clearly you believe that part of the bests was wrong

I don't think Cotchin played that well, crucial moment he let himself & his side down. I don't think he was one of the bests and you do and that's your right. But you used that him being named in the best was enough to back your argument that he was one of our best.

When you disagree with the best they are wrong but when you agree they are right...

Yes I am very critical of our leaders when they go missing and they go missing a lot, yes they are young I get that but they are still the leaders.

As leaders their job is lead, set an example and when things are crap attempt to drag the team along; to get them going. When your captain misses a set shot 30 odd metres out at a crucial time in the game then he should be criticised.

And let's not forget that people who know a bit more than me (former AFL captains) are highly critical of his misses than me and I reckon their collective views carry some weight.

We lost 2 games earlier in the year that we shouldn't of that will likely cause us to miss top 4 and what do those 2 losses have in common? Our leaders going missing at crunch time.

Simplistic? No, like it or not the expectations are greater on those players (rightly) because they are the leaders. And just because they are leaders doesn't mean they are immune from criticism at the same level as the easy targets

It's simplistic because you are basing your opinion of leadership on kicking for goal.
You wouldn't know the first thing about any of our leaders. How they train, what they are like in meetings, what they are like before games and even what they are like on the ground and at breaks. All you see is Trent missing a goal and say he lacked in leadership. You can still be a good leader and miss a goal even if it's a crucial one. All it does is show is he is human and misses goals like every other captain and footballer. Even the great Tony Lockett missed 31% of the time.
Sure we would all like him to kick at 100% in every game every year but even the dumbest of supporters can see that it's just not possible.
Who do you consider as a great leader from another club? Do they go missing at stages of games? Do they miss goals? Pretty sure if you are honest with yourself the answer is yes.

And lastely Not sure if you read Johno Browns article last week but he rates Trent's leadership pretty highly and I'd take what he says over most other peanuts in the media.

[WilliamPowell]

It's simplistic because you are basing your opinion of leadership on kicking for goal.

No actually I don't, leadership has much more to do with it than that. But if you want to believe that's all I base it on then again that's your call. We can debate/discuss it until the cows come home but you are fixated on the missed goals. I will repeat leadership is much more than that.

You wouldn't know the first thing about any of our leaders. How they train, what they are like in meetings, what they are like before games and even what they are like on the ground and at breaks. All you see is Trent missing a goal and say he lacked in leadership. You can still be a good leader and miss a goal even if it's a crucial one. All it does is show is he is human and misses goals like every other captain and footballer. Even the great Tony Lockett missed 31% of the time.
Sure we would all like him to kick at 100% in every game every year but even the dumbest of supporters can see that it's just not possible.

No need for the insult BTW - we disagree but why do you have to use comments like "even the dumbest supporters"? Just because people don't agree with you you seem to drop an insult in.

But any way back to your statement "You wouldn't know the first thing about any of our leaders...." Would and could argue either do you so it is a mute point. 

As I said this has more to do with him missing goals. Go back to the Swans game - that third quarter was one of the finest examples of leadership you will ever see. That had nothing to do with goals, it had to do with dragging your players along and inspiring them, that's what he did that Friday night. He didn't do that on Saturday in the last qtr and that's my point

But seeing you want to focus on that. The missing goals highlights a glaring weakness in his leadership both Carey & Ling (both premiership captains) & even Harley last year (another premiership captain) have commented on and I think thier collective views carry a fair bit of merit. Or is only Jono Brown's opinion worthy?

Who do you consider as a great leader from another club? Do they go missing at stages of games? Do they miss goals? Pretty sure if you are honest with yourself the answer is yes.

And lastely Not sure if you read Johno Browns article last week but he rates Trent's leadership pretty highly and I'd take what he says over most other peanuts in the media.

Actually if you read my comments in the Jonathon Brown article then you'd know who I rate as an outstanding leader and that's Luke Hodge. Yes I am sure he's missed a few goals in time but he's kicked some clutch ones.

And just on Brown's article he actually compared Cotchin to Hodge and said they were practically on par. And FWIW I actually posted in that thread that based on Saturday's game they aren't