11th December 2005/ Cronulla Beach!

[Razorblade]

Another example that multiculturalism and "race breeding" (for a lack of a better term) only leads to problems!

People like to say multiculturalism works, it doesn't, atleast not in the big picture!

Cronulla is just another example on a very long list that it simply doesn't work, especially when the migrants end up having more rights then the Australians!

[mightytiges]

Welcome to OER Ethel Merman

Cowardly thugs on both sides?

From what i saw all the aussies rocked up in the daytime, in clear view, if any Lebs wanted to have a crack they didn't have to look very far, IMO thats not cowardly!

What IS cowardly is waiting until nighttime, going around in large groups and destroying cars, bashing and stabbing innocent people and threatening to rape girls!

So mob rule, where anyone who looked a certain race is set upon or where glass beer bottles are thrown at ambos taking injured victims away, is not cowardly because it was done during daylight hours... Che! ???  . Sounds and looks like cowardly thug behaviour to me just as were the night-time rampages that followed and the lifesaver bashings that preceded it. All are illustrations of mindless mob rule mentality and a lack of law enforcement by the authorities.

If i lived o/s somewhere, I'd still refer to myself as being an Aussie, unless i was born there.  Nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage as long as you abide by the laws of this country.  What gets me is even if they said they were Aussies, everyone would still ask them what country do you come from lol.  They can't win.  As long as they abide by the laws of this country, and probably 99.9% of them do (and i don't have statistics to quote lol) who cares.

Agree Moi. 

A caller rang into 3aw last week about the riots and ethnic youth gangs. He mentioned he was an Aussie of lebanese background and that these lebanese youth gangs in Sydney were criminals and asked people not to label all lebanese Australians with the same brush. He copped the 3rd degree from Ross Warneke for bringing up his background when his point wouldn't have made any sense if he hadn't. FFS since when was bringing up where you originally come from or your heritage classed as treason! All that matters is you're a law-abiding citizen and you don't hurt others (hence why these youth gangs in Sydney are thugs). Sheesh most of the time heritage is a topic for small-talk or a harmless ice-breaker when you meet someone new with a distant accent. We have this American guy at work who's been living in Oz for 30 years. It's a bit hard for newbies to ignore a loud booming yank accent lol. 

Do some research into their religion, you will find some very interesting things about their opinions of people who dont follow islam!

All religious texts are far too open to a multitude of interpretations and contain some barbaric verses by today's standards (Leviticus in the Bible for instance). You could justify anything if you really wanted to whether it be the Koran, Bible or whatever. Just look as those fundamentalist so-called christians in the US who shoot doctors who perform abortions. On a non-violent scale there's also Benny Hinn's solution to reducing hospital waiting lists lol (what a crack-up that show is )

Mention Genesis and one group of Christians will say Adam and Eve etc are just stories to illustrate a point about the choice between following God (good) or not (evil) and you having a choice between the two; on the other hand some hardcore fundamentists take a totally literal view and start setting up theme parks in the US about "intellectual design" and wanting I.D. taught in all schools as fact . 

Only the nutty fundamental self-called moslems believe the crap you are alluding to Razor. As I mentioned before one of my mates is Bangladeshi/moslem - moved here when he was 2 years old (btw he's off again to Reno to do ski instructoring in the US the lucky B lol). "Jihad" is meant to mean fighting within yourself in terms of fighting temptation when deciding between good and evil. Pretty hand-wavey as these books are. These crackpots like Benbrika (sp?) use such a statement to justify wiping out anyone who doesn't follow their twisted fascist form of Islam which is basically do what they say or else. The leader of taliban (Omar IIRC) banned all television because he claimed it was non-islamic yet who had the only working TV in Afghanistan in his home with CNN of all channels on?! These fundamentalist psychopaths are hypocrites! More moslems have died from terrorist bombings under the name of Islam than the "infidel". Nothing like a lust for power and absolute control to corrupt people  .

Another example that multiculturalism and "race breeding" (for a lack of a better term) only leads to problems!

People like to say multiculturalism works, it doesn't, atleast not in the big picture!

Cronulla is just another example on a very long list that it simply doesn't work, especially when the migrants end up having more rights then the Australians!

I have no idea what you mean Razor by "race breeding" ??? in relation to multiculturalism but moving along I would argue Australia and in particular Melbourne is an example that multiculturalism does work over time. We have been able to absorb peacefully people from all parts of the world and the cultures (as opposed to laws) they bring with them under the secular British institutions and law we inherited and modified to our needs. A small minority of thugs (there will always be some) shouldn't denigrate the efforts of 20 million Aussies to provide the fortuante country we live in.

Where Sydney authorities went wrong was the government, police and community leaders such as Trad failed to crackdown on violent crime and uphold the law at an early stage and while in denial they let the racism (on both sides) and crime/thuggery continue and fester until mass riots forced them to do something they should have done 5 years earlier. 

[mightytiges]

Razor, In you plethora of stats, where do Collingwood supporters come in? Did they make the Eight?? 

A report on the radio suggested that there are 30 cars and 3 bus loads of thugs heading up from Melbourne for another clash. Probably a bunch of Collingwood supporters wanting to get rid of their frustrations early for the upcoming season. 
Imagine the queues at the toilets when they stop for a pee break. It would give them fond memories of the old Victoria Park days, especially the last half a dozen or so in the queue when they finally get in and see the state of the loo's after 150+ fellow supporters have been through.
Oooops....I shouldn't single out one particular club! Not very PC! 

An oldie but a goodie 

[Razorblade]

MT, easy up on the posts mate it would take me forever to do a full reply to every point you made there! 

As far as my point about the Koran and other islamic religious stuff......

For people who don't believe in Islam:

Koran 5:34 "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter"

Koran 5:51 "O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends, they are friends of each other, and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people"

Koran 8:12 "Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them."

Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:52:73 "Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords"

Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794 "Muhammad ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized until they die"


Now tell me MT that Islam doesn't practice hate against "non believers"?

You keep saying that the trouble makers are all a "minority" group, i think you will find that that is nothing but rubbish, now while i dont have any statistics in regards to prisons, im going to lay a bet that there are tens of thousands of ethnic criminals in our jails!

The "race breeding doesn't work" statement was in reference to tiga's point!

A similar thing happens in Japan where children who were conceived by Japanese mothers from Austrailan fathers during the occupation of Japan at the end of WWII are to this day treated as outcasts because they are of Anglo Saxon appearance yet they are as Japanese as any of their non mixed race countrymen. They are always having to convince people that they are not outsiders but born and bred Japanese and the constant pressure of this has even driven some to suicide.
Quite sad really.

Like i said, another example that mixing races and cultures doesn't work, and this time it isn't even in Australia!

[mightytiges]

You could do a similar thing with the bible especially the Old Testament Razor where stonings of sons, slaughtering of enemies including their children, etc are considered justified in context. There are plenty of contradictions in religious texts. Furthermore these books aren't written by their founders and were written down well after the founder had died and often by those who never met him. Mohammod was illiterate so he couldn't have written it. The Hadith was written at least 200 years after. The Biblical Gospels at least 30-40 years after and not a single word by Geez. 

You're asking the wrong person in terms of believing most of this stuff Razor. The problem is there's nutters out there stupid enough to take all this stuff literally even though these stories were written by people 1300 to 2000 years ago in contempary terms and more likely than not fiddled with since. Worse still there are those who will pick these verses out to condone atrocities against non-believers even though other parts of the text say such things are forbidden.

Most believers are lucky to have read even a fraction of scripture themselves. These texts are longer than "War and Peace". Most believers would argue they follow the spirit of the religion and life of the founder which in the case of Geez and Mohammod is conveyed as a life of promoting peace, unity and forgiveness whether fact or fiction. I went to a Catholic school and it was parts of each of the gospels, genesis, exodus and a few psalms. That's it. Believers rely on religious leaders to convey messages of the whole text and relate them to the present. These "leaders" have to pick and choose a topic each week to deliver a sermon. If these religious leaders are fanatical and corrupt (eg: Benbrika) then any religion is easily open to violent corruption especially with the young and impressionable. In the past Christianity has been corrupted (the crusades, the inquisition, etc) and Islam is no different. Religion provides a great deal of power and control over others to those in power and its not something these hardline fanatics will give up lightly. Just look at Iran. This "us vs them" tactic is the oldest trick in the book.

Turkey is an muslim nation but they have secular laws and are a liberal democracy. Not surprisingly they decided to be part of Europe when most of the country is in the Middle East. At the end of the day most people wherever they come from want the same thing IMO - peace, representation and prosperity for themselves and their families. When these things don't exist in areas around the world then extremists of all forms are given a voice. A moderate form of Islam and western democracy can work but these fanactics don't want it to. It's good leadership that Islam is strongly lacking IMHO rather than the religion itself being rotten to the core.     

[Razorblade]

Your entire argument would be valid if i was a christian, me being a atheist though it just doesn't work with me.

I'm not defending christiaity, although i haven't seen as many hate filled verses come from the bible then from the koran and such.

Also, you will find that most, if not all pastors and church guru's don't preach those "bad" verses, yet the radical islamic leaders preach them far more then the peaceful ones.

The government allows these radicals into the country, then allows them to preach their hate filled religion.

Just like the england attacks, when there is a terrorist attack in Australia, the perpetrators will come from WITHIN this country.

The governments, ever since the 70's have allowed migrants to come into this country unchecked, without even asking the people if they wanted multiculturalism.

Beazley said on Sydney radio the other day that he WOULDN'T allow Australia to have a referendum in regards to multuculturalism, i wonder why that is?

He knows that, if the people had of had a say in it, a large % of people would vote against it.

The islamic groups cry racism and religious persecution everytime the police or government crack down on these radicals, and the left wing nutcases always defend them!

Have you seen the pictures from the sydney rally yesterday?


"We stand with the LEBANESE AGAINST RACISTS"

Hang on, what about the australians who are attacked simply because they are "white"?

What about the girls who are spat on, sexually harassed and even raped because they are "aussie sluts"?

Why aren't the lefties standing with THEM against the racist-based attacks of the Lebanese criminals?

Answer me that question!

Racism isn't a one-way street, despite what the hippies say!


This one pretty much speaks for itself, i thought i had seen the leftiest of the left wing, but she just takes the cake! 

These are the types of nuts who's fault it will be when the rialto tower, or the MCG, or the Opera House get blown up, not because they blew up the bombs, but because they defended the people who commited the terrorist acts, and protected them against the people who's job it was to stop terrorism!

[mightytiges]

Not a good week for the national flag the way it was manipulated for political motives.  

Not everyone who supports multiculturalism is a lefty Razor although the Andrew Bolts of this world would have you believe it . We've had mass immigration since the late 1940's not just from the 70's and from either time we've had mainly Conservative governments in power and federally for the past 10 years. The usual crowd don't want to admit the benefits to our society both culturally and economically have far outwayed the negatives nor admit that our population would have fallen and would fall because our birth rate is low and our population is ageing. But hey we could always follow Hanson economics of shutting up shop and "printing more money" when the economy hits the skids      .

It's hard to have a referendum on a topic that many people can't even agree on what it even means. Nor is it a constitutional law. In any case what do you do if it fails ??? - shut down Lygon street, Sydney Rd and Bridge Road and boot half the population out. Good luck lol. In any case referendums have a shocking record of getting up in Australia so you might be surprised. From memory there's only been four successful ones in over 100 years and the last was abolishing terra-nullus and allowing aborigines to vote in 1967.

I don't see anyone defending Benbrika and his alleged terrorist cronies nor anyone protesting against the actions of the NSW police currently on South Sydney beaches. 4-5 arrests today - 1-2 white sepremist Anglo-aussies, 1 indigenous-aussie + a pair of middle eastern-aussies (well going on their names). Thuggery doesn't discriminate between races nor does racism. Thankfully it appears the authorities have finally decided to enforce the law.

[tiga]

This is quite an interesting discussion and it's good to hear such diverse points of view.

I have to agree with some of Razor's comments on the two photos he posted. The first banner in a sense is actually inciting racism by what it portrays. Are they lebanese? Are they Lebanese Australian or are they Australians??? That's like referring to an African American as an African!
Maybe the banner should have said "We stand with Australians against racism." People who are new to this country need to understand that you can embrace the Austrailan culture and way of life and still maintain close links to their heritage.
My Boss came to Australia from Germany in 1987, became an Australian citizen, and considers himself to be a proud Australian yet he is still able to embrace his German heritage and he is still proud of where he came from. When he first came here, he copped all the usual zeig hail and hitler crap that German imigrants usually cop but he rose above all of it. He even has an Australian flag in his yard and really loves this country. 

I think this is where the defining line of this argument is. Most of the people I know of European and Asian heritage, Of which are many of my good friends have embraced the Australian way of life just like my boss but they still have the balance of being able to enjoy the culture of their origin.

I think that Razor is trying to pinpoint the minority of ethnic origin who refuse to embrace the Australian way of life in any way, shape or form. To me as far as I'm concerned these people are racist in themselves. In a sense, think of it as moving in to stay at someone's house only to disobey all the house rules and disrespect the hosts by telling them that everything they stand for and believe in is total crap!

As far as comparing the Koran with the Bible, lets face it, most wars throughout the years have been based on Religion. Religion is just various groups of people who come together with a common belief. As Humans, if we feel our beliefs are being threatened, we react. Just like if we sat the Collingwood and Richmond cheer squads next to each other on gameday. (I saw this at VFL park once. Not a pretty site!  )

To the second photo, this Woman hasn't got a clue! Rent a crowd I bet. Some chumped up bint, angry at the world, looking for a cause no matter how misguided it is just so she feels as though she has some sort of purpose in this mortal coil.
I think 50cc's of self reflection should be her prescription.....STAT!    Enough said!

[Razorblade]

This is quite an interesting discussion and it's good to hear such diverse points of view.

Really, i thought i was just talking racist rederick! 

I have to agree with some of Razor's comments 

You poor thing, you must be hallucinating! 

I think that Razor is trying to pinpoint the minority of ethnic origin who refuse to embrace the Australian way of life in any way, shape or form. To me as far as I'm concerned these people are racist in themselves. In a sense, think of it as moving in to stay at someone's house only to disobey all the house rules and disrespect the hosts by telling them that everything they stand for and believe in is total crap!

Gold star to Tiga!

They do this, yet the left-wing nutters defend them when they are attacked by whoever it may be, for refusing to asssimiliate and wanting things changed to suit their needs!

I don't know if i read this here or somewhere else, but apparently some asians are peticioning their local council to change the street signs to their language, so THEY can read it! 

Our coutry, our language! 

As far as comparing the Koran with the Bible, lets face it, most wars throughout the years have been based on Religion. Religion is just various groups of people who come together with a common belief. As Humans, if we feel our beliefs are being threatened, we react.

This is true, but you'll find that the Koran is a lot more hatefilled then the bible.

As far as im concerned people can practice whatever bloody religion they want, as long as:
1. I don't have to change anything i do or anything i say to suit their religion.
2. They don't preach hate and violence against "non-whites" (see islam).
3. They don't demand that i convert to their religion (see islam).
4. They respect whatever i believe in and don't condemn me for it.

I'm an atheist, so i don't really know if they'd have a problem with that or not, but since the Koran state death to all "non-believers" im going to make the assumption that im included in that group.

Why is it that people like Hindu's, who from what ive seen are HUGE on religion and cultural traditions, don't affect any australians and aren't placading for people to change their ways to suit them, yet these islams DEMAND australians change their ways to suit THEIR religion, or else!

The sooner most people realise that the Australians aren't the problem, and that the muslims are the ones causing all the trouble, the quicker this pooh will be resolved (yes im talking to you Mr. Iemma and police commisioner Moroney!).

To the second photo, this Woman hasn't got a clue! Rent a crowd I bet. Some chumped up bint, angry at the world, looking for a cause no matter how misguided it is just so she feels as though she has some sort of purpose in this mortal coil.
I think 50cc's of self reflection should be her prescription.....STAT!    Enough said!

Probably, but it just shows you how deluded some left wing people are.

Don't think this is a one off person, their are really a LOT of people like this in Australia, god i had to take some silly social studies module at TAFE this past year, and although it only went for 8 classes, it really opened my eyes to how deluded some people are in this world ie: Ethnic crime is caused by religious persecution, we need more immigrants, Howard is a war criminal (that one i loved the most!).

Now everyone who doesn't like multiculturalism is being labelled a neo-nazi and a white supremacist, when really the term should be "nationalist".

I'm a nationalist and proud of it, and im not even an extreme nationalist, yet some of my opinions have been deemed racist by certain lunatics.

Not being a supporter of multiculturalism doesn't = racist
Not supporting immigration doesn't = racist
Defending yourself against racially motivated attacks by Lebanese doesn't = racist

[tiga]

Out of interest Razor, Did you vote One Nation?? Apparently they got 15% of the national vote.

Your views are somewhat more extreme than mine. I didn't mention anything about lefties in fact, how do you know a persons political persuasion by looking at them?? You must have idiot eyes or something because I didn't see that woman as a Leftie, I just saw her as a deluded fool rubbishing our flag which cuts me to the grain

[tiga]

Razor, you must be reading....Koran....The Directors cut!. 

From My basic undertanding, Islam is actually a faith based on peace, it's the extreme religious fundamentalists that twist the words around to suit their suicidal tendencies. Not unlike the genocide based on the Bible such as the religious crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.(which nobody exprected! Sorry I just had to put that in being an old monty python fan)

[Razorblade]

I didn't vote for anyone last election, wasn't allowed to! 

Well i think its fairly obvious she's not right, and she's in a left-wing rally!

Trust me if i had idiot eyes i wouldn't be talking about racism on the net, there's plenty of things to look at which normally girls i mean people don't show off! 

I've been reading the "white supremacist" version of the Koran, i mean surely they wouldn't twist the words around to favour their own motives! 

[mightytiges]

The sooner most people realise that the Australians aren't the problem, and that the muslims are the ones causing all the trouble, the quicker this pooh will be resolved (yes im talking to you Mr. Iemma and police commisioner Moroney!).

What about if they're Aussie muslims Razor? Sweeping generalisations make no sense whatsoever. They aren't  all angels or all demons. I disagree with both far left and far right views. Every one has its small proportion of lowlives. When you reduce it down to treating people as individuals (and how they treat you in return) rather than going with the mindless mob mentally,  I'd rather be friends with my Aussie Bangladeshi mate ski-instructing in the US than with some psycho white-sepremacist loser who needs to find scapegoats to avoid admitting to his own failings.

As for arguing about immigration and multiculturalism, sure it isn't perfect but I'd rather use the past 60 years of prosperity and the variety of choice we have and share today to defend both. Makes you just want to shudder at what might have been if we had remained Fortress Australia and followed the Hansonites of this world. I wonder if these people would give up all the vast good things that have come from immigration and multiculturalism to have their imaginary utopian isolated little world .

Now everyone who doesn't like multiculturalism is being labelled a neo-nazi and a white supremacist, when really the term should be "nationalist".

Nazi is an abbreviation of the first 4 letters in Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei which translated stands for the National Socialist German Workers' Party. In German the "ti" is pronouced as "tsi" (zee) and the "a" pronouced as "ar" as in car. Hence Nar-zee.

Unlike in English, German distinguishes between vowel sounds. When you put an umlat (two dots) above the "a" then it becomes equivalent to writing "ae" pronounced "ay" as in day. No worrying about "you say tomato and I say tomato" in German.

[Razorblade]

Well if the Muslims considered themselves Australian, and not wherever their parents are from, it wouldn't be a problem would it, but oh no even though they have AUSTRALIAN citizenship, were born in AUSTRALIA or even live in AUSTRALIA they consider themselves some other nationality!

As for your 2nd comment, i have no idea why you said it!  ???

[mightytiges]

Well if the Muslims considered themselves Australian, and not wherever their parents are from, it wouldn't be a problem would it, but oh no even though they have AUSTRALIAN citizenship, were born in AUSTRALIA or even live in AUSTRALIA they consider themselves some other nationality!

What all/most of them  ???

As for your 2nd comment, i have no idea why you said it!  ???

Just being pedantic. Far right groups call themselves Nationalists as they follow the ideology of National Socialism and often have the word National or variations of it in their group's name such as National Action in Australia. A Nazi (NSDAP) is a Nationalist.

This is opposed to calling yourself "nationalistic" and highly patriotic etc which I'm not actually of fan of either as it too can lead to senseless stupidity (see WW1) and a loss of individual freedoms. I've always been proud of our subtle Aussie pride without the superficial waving of banners and flags crap.   

As for some elements within that crowd at Cronulla and that sent sms messages around, they were definitely of the former variety.