Jack Graham that is [merged]

[Andyy]

I don’t think he’s only got a stable spot because of injuries. The only players who you would consider best 22/23 on our injury list atm are really short, lynch, Gibcus and maybe Tarrant. That’s 1 half back flanker and 3 key position players who even if they were healthy wouldn’t come in at the expense of graham.

Coaches clearly like what he brings to the table as much as a lot of us (myself included) don’t always agree with. At the start of the season I had him as 23rd man so agree he’s probably in that 18-24, don’t think I’d go as far as 28 lol.

Don't get me wrong - I like what he brings as well, just think he doesn't have as many tools or as high a ceiling as some other players of similar role.

With KPP's injured we have seen some movements such as Pickett moving to the forward line as a marking target, which hasn't been effective, but it's evidence that our injuries (and subsequently returns) don't only impact the direct position of the injured player in question - hence the return of players like Lynch and Gibcus should put pressure on a player like Graham for example.

If we had a completely healthy list without significant form issues my 22 would look something like this:

Grimes Balta Gibcus
Rioli Vlastuin Broad
Pickett Cotchin KMac
Ross Lynch Dusty
Mansell Riewoldt Bolton

Nank Taranto Hopper

IC Prestia, Short, Baker, Ryan

Sub/just outside B22: Young, Clarke, Cumberland, Graham, Miller, M Rioli


Plenty of players able to rotate through the middle or swaps positions. It shows we are really struggling for small forward quality.

Question for you - out of that B22, who do you think Graham is an automatic selection over, considering quality and role/position?

For me this places him somewhere in the 23-26 range currently.

[Hard Roar Tiger]

It is almost like KMac and Pickett are invisible.
I don’t think either are doing enough to warrant a spot in the starting 18 (or 22).
The reality of our starting line up is that Jack and Cotchin will go out at seasons end and Tom Lynch will come in.
Unless we trade for it, the likelihood is that Gibcus swings into our forward line.

Jack Graham fits nicely as a pressure forward - providing he is fit. He looks bigger and slower now when compared to start of year.
If he can regain that mobility from start of year, he’s a good option up forward and then a pinch hit midfielder

[Tiger Khosh]

I don’t think he’s only got a stable spot because of injuries. The only players who you would consider best 22/23 on our injury list atm are really short, lynch, Gibcus and maybe Tarrant. That’s 1 half back flanker and 3 key position players who even if they were healthy wouldn’t come in at the expense of graham.

Coaches clearly like what he brings to the table as much as a lot of us (myself included) don’t always agree with. At the start of the season I had him as 23rd man so agree he’s probably in that 18-24, don’t think I’d go as far as 28 lol.

Don't get me wrong - I like what he brings as well, just think he doesn't have as many tools or as high a ceiling as some other players of similar role.

With KPP's injured we have seen some movements such as Pickett moving to the forward line as a marking target, which hasn't been effective, but it's evidence that our injuries (and subsequently returns) don't only impact the direct position of the injured player in question - hence the return of players like Lynch and Gibcus should put pressure on a player like Graham for example.

If we had a completely healthy list without significant form issues my 22 would look something like this:

Grimes Balta Gibcus
Rioli Vlastuin Broad
Pickett Cotchin KMac
Ross Lynch Dusty
Mansell Riewoldt Bolton

Nank Taranto Hopper

IC Prestia, Short, Baker, Ryan

Sub/just outside B22: Young, Clarke, Cumberland, Graham, Miller, M Rioli


Plenty of players able to rotate through the middle or swaps positions. It shows we are really struggling for small forward quality.

Question for you - out of that B22, who do you think Graham is an automatic selection over, considering quality and role/position?

For me this places him somewhere in the 23-26 range currently.

I wouldn’t have him as an ‘automatic’ selection over anyone you’ve listed however I would say I’d prefer him over Pickett in a forward role. Marlion as a fwd hasn’t been working (clutch goal against gws aside) and with kmac and Ross probably occupying the wing spots, I’d have graham in and pickett out.

As an aside I’d also have MRJ in before mansell, neither are contributing much offensively but think juniors pace/pressure/tackling is above mansells. Would also have Miller in ahead of Ryan. I think at this stage of his career if Ryan isn’t no.1 ruck he’s not contributing much as a fwd or tall marking target down the ground. Since nank takes 90% of ruck contests and we just need someone to give him a chop out, I prefer Miller as you can ‘plug and play’ him anywhere on the ground as needed.

[FooffooValve]

Ross wouldn't be in as a half forward in my book.

With Graham, nobody is arguing that he's in our top 10 or even 20 players in terms of raw talent, but his selection boils down to more than kicks, clangers, tackles, marks and handballs. It's just a matter of what you value more - hard two-way transition runners (eg KMac and Graham) who give you a chance of outnumbering at more contests, or blokes that can't run as well but might pick up a few more possessions. In the modern game, some coaches prefer the hard runners over others, some prefer the possession gatherers - just depends on your game plan.

What isn't in dispute is that Graham is consistently in the top 3-5 runners on the ground, in terms of speed transitions, repeat sprints and distance covered. If you don't like that sort of stuff, then he's not for you. Fair enough!

[Diocletian]

Except one noticeable thing in our losses and even some wins post-20 is how often we're outnumbered around the ball and the contest.

Also particularly annoying is how often there's only opposition players around a pack getting easy uncontested possessions from the spillages.

[lamington]

For me it’s more about team balance and that’s where value can fluctuate. On pure talent yes Damo your list stacks up perfectly. If we play geelong or Sydney who prefer to move through the corridor I’d rather have Graham on the team.

Against Collingwood which can burn us on the outside and has Steele Sidebottom who we never tag I’d go with someone with a bit more zip.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing hopper and Taranto squeezed him out in a sense. But I don’t think he is as rubbish as some fans make him out to be. He also doesn’t poo himself in front of goal which is a rare trait in our team right now

[Tiger_In_Sicily]

Except one noticeable thing in our losses and even some wins post-20 is how often we're outnumbered around the ball and the contest.

Also particularly annoying is how often there's only opposition players around a pack getting easy uncontested possessions from the spillages.

So is that the players fault or coaching !!!! We've always played that way with an extra behind the ball not at the contest

[Diocletian]

Didn't say that was Graham's fault but if you're going to argue that runners like him & KMac are there to get from contest to contest and provide an outnumber then that suggests it's not happening to the level required - also playing an extra behind the ball doesn't excuse  constantly not having anyone in position ready to rove a pack or clean up a spillage...

[FooffooValve]

Didn't say that was Graham's fault but if you're going to argue that runners like him & KMac are there to get from contest to contest and provide an outnumber then that suggests it's not happening to the level required - also playing an extra behind the ball doesn't excuse  constantly not having anyone in position ready to rove a pack or clean up a spillage...

For the record, Graham didn't play in rounds 5,6 and 7 - three bad losses where we scored 78, 78 and 48 points and lost by an average 28 points across the 3 games, including a terrible loss to GC where we looked outnumbered in just about every contest. Not sure of statistically significant, but there's some facts.

[Tiger_In_Sicily]

Didn't say that was Graham's fault but if you're going to argue that runners like him & KMac are there to get from contest to contest and provide an outnumber then that suggests it's not happening to the level required - also playing an extra behind the ball doesn't excuse  constantly not having anyone in position ready to rove a pack or clean up a spillage...

Well there's no need to stress , these things are all things you will fix when you take over as coach next year.. history will be set, you'll be the first undefeated coach in history. Really looking forward to you taking over

[Diocletian]

Didn't say that was Graham's fault but if you're going to argue that runners like him & KMac are there to get from contest to contest and provide an outnumber then that suggests it's not happening to the level required - also playing an extra behind the ball doesn't excuse  constantly not having anyone in position ready to rove a pack or clean up a spillage...

For the record, Graham didn't play in rounds 5,6 and 7 - three bad losses where we scored 78, 78 and 48 points and lost by an average 28 points across the 3 games, including a terrible loss to GC where we looked outnumbered in just about every contest. Not sure of statistically significant, but there's some facts.

Didn't realise we've only had three losses this year - clearly the absence of Jack de Castella was the difference.

Well there's no need to stress , these things are all things you will fix when you take over as coach next year.. history will be set, you'll be the first undefeated coach in history. Really looking forward to you taking over

Well the club just couldn't continue being coached from Sicily via Skype....

[Tiger_In_Sicily]

Didn't say that was Graham's fault but if you're going to argue that runners like him & KMac are there to get from contest to contest and provide an outnumber then that suggests it's not happening to the level required - also playing an extra behind the ball doesn't excuse  constantly not having anyone in position ready to rove a pack or clean up a spillage...

For the record, Graham didn't play in rounds 5,6 and 7 - three bad losses where we scored 78, 78 and 48 points and lost by an average 28 points across the 3 games, including a terrible loss to GC where we looked outnumbered in just about every contest. Not sure of statistically significant, but there's some facts.

Didn't realise we've only had three losses this year - clearly the absence of Jack de Castella was the difference.

Well there's no need to stress , these things are all things you will fix when you take over as coach next year.. history will be set, you'll be the first undefeated coach in history. Really looking forward to you taking over

Well the club just couldn't continue being coached from Sicily via Skype....

Coaching is not my gig, I have zero tolerance for stupidity

[Diocletian]

Well then I just don't know how you can live with yourself...

[one-eyed]

Guys get back to the thread topic!

[FooffooValve]

Didn't realise we've only had three losses this year - clearly the absence of Jack de Castella was the difference.

You know, sarcasm doesn't really advance your argument.