Author Topic: State of Umpiring [merged]  (Read 272523 times)

Offline georgies31

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2160 on: May 30, 2022, 01:51:30 PM »
Typical hypocrisy by this organisation they can't even admit a mistakes embarrassing  ,umpires are protected species when they should be accountable for mistakes. As for Scott yeah right his one of them sacked by North given a job by the afl to pay his contract and now head of umpiring laughable.

Offline Chuck17

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2161 on: May 30, 2022, 02:10:51 PM »
I was thinking we should get an apology at the least

Offline JP Tiger

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2162 on: May 30, 2022, 03:15:58 PM »
Brad Scott was sacked by Norf?  Really?  Norf?  And then palmed him off to the AFL?   

It makes total sense now ... well played Norf, dodged a bullet ...     :whistle
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Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2163 on: May 30, 2022, 06:00:01 PM »
AFL great calls for clarity to umpiring ‘mess’ after controversial call

Ben Cotton
Fox Sports
May 30th, 2022


Fox Footy’s First Crack team has labelled the state of umpiring a “mess” in the fallout from Sydney’s controversial win over Richmond on Friday night.

In a contest where 61 free kicks were paid, a crucial non-call on the final siren sparked huge debate from the football world after Swan Chad Warner wasn’t slapped with a 50m penalty despite booting the ball into the stands after giving away a free kick.

The AFL on Saturday morning ticked off the decision, however the First Crack team were left confused by the response.

Saints great Leigh Montagna said the umpires should’ve stayed consistent with the high amount of free kicks paid on the night.

“Technically that’s a 50m penalty. This is my frustration because they umpired the whole night technically, they paid every technical free kick, everything is black and white. Then all of a sudden they say, ‘nah let’s use common sense and not pay a 50m penalty in this situation,’” the dual All-Australian said.

“You could’ve used look at it either way. It shows the whole situation is a bit of a mess.”

North Melbourne legend David King also called on the adjudication to remain consistent, and if that was too difficult, to make changes.

“This is what happens when you create another avenue. We’ve got grey area, interpretation, let’s just have the rules, let’s just adjudicate to the rules,” he said.

“If they’re that hard, change them, make alterations, because they’ve created a mess. No one knows what’s going on with the 50(m)s anymore — protected area, run too far — we saw the comical one in the West Coast game.”

“If the 50 is there, pay the 50 and say ‘bad luck, you know the rules. You kick the ball away, that’s the rules.’ Of course it’s there (the 50m against Sydney). I don’t understand why you’d say, ‘nah let’s just pay common sense on this one.’ It’s black and white.”

It came a week after umpiring and the application of free kicks made headlines, with Hawthorn’s Round 10 win over Brisbane yielding 63 free kicks — the most in a match since 2012 — while the umpire dissent debate raged on.

It led to some claiming it’s the reason AFL crowd attendances were down in 2022, drawing the lowest averages since 1995 in non-Covid impacted seasons.

Former Hawthorn sharpshooter Ben Dixon suggested if Warner kicked the ball into the stands after quarter time the umpires would’ve paid a 50m penalty, to which Montagna agreed.

And the ex-Saints champion questioned if the game needed to be umpired with more common sense, praising the officiating from Collingwood’s win over Carlton on Sunday.

“If we could change it philosophically, would you love the game to be umpired with a bit more on common sense?” Pay the obvious ones,” he said.

“I thought today’s game was really well umpired where it’s a bit more not paying every single technical free kick. They could’ve paid a lot more holding the balls.”

King called on AFL football boss Brad Scott to publicly address the situation despite as recently as three weeks ago saying umpire dissent was quickly becoming a “non issue” in the sport.

“You’ve just got to get this stuff right, and to get it right Brad Scott has to come out and say ‘we’ve gone backwards here, the competition has gone backwards this season on all 50m adjudications. Let’s reset, clarify the lines, have no grey areas,’” King said.

“We’ve put the umpire on an island. We’ve just got to take common sense off the table.”

Montagna argued that the league giving the Warner no-call the all-clear “confused everyone” and believes there’s too much nuance to how the game is adjudicated.

“That’s the issue with the way we umpire the game, either way you could be right,” he said.

“Technically it’s a free kick or (it’s) common sense if you don’t pay a free kick, either way you can make out like the decision is right.”

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2022-free-kicks-paid-in-round-11-chad-warner-no-50m-penalty-kicks-ball-into-stands-sydney-swans-win-over-richmond-tigers-umpire-dissent/news-story/a75862fc45a7785708c922dd8baaed69

Offline The Machine

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2164 on: May 30, 2022, 06:31:44 PM »
 :clapping

Offline Tiger Khosh

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2165 on: May 31, 2022, 03:10:03 AM »
The minute they stop creating nonsensical, illogical rules in an attempt to increase scoring the better. All of the stupid 6-6-6, stand, running arcs when taking a set shot, protected area rules were brought in by the AFL to speed up play and bring congestion down because they thought scoring was negatively effected and it was turning viewers off. They claim the rules were brought in to make the game better for the fans but they have done anything but that and yet the AFL will stand by them even when the people they supposedly brought the rules in for say otherwise. Let the game evolve naturally, if it goes through a period of defensive coaching tactics so be it. I’ve seen plenty of hugely exciting low scoring games. Give me those any day over the over officiated mess we get today.

Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2166 on: May 31, 2022, 06:52:05 AM »
Wheatley on AFL360 last night tried to make up every excuse for it not being paid a 50.

The umpire guy on twitter shot him down.

Quote from: Has the umpire made A Bad decision?
Quote
It’s taken all weekend, but @FOXFOOTY finally showing the decisive video angle of the Warner incident. They clearly made the right call. @hasumpstuffedup

Different angle and Wheatley's comments: https://twitter.com/morteinmooie/status/1531218824602992641

As a Neutral enjoyer of the game - I am happy to not see it paid.

But none of the factors they mention - the proximity of the umpire, timing of the siren, have any legal standing.

Fact remains that Warner booted the ball away when Tigers had  a FK - That's a 50m penalty. #AFL

Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2167 on: May 31, 2022, 07:51:03 PM »
‘It’s the only decision’: Exclusive vision reveals twist in controversial ump call

Ben Cotton
Fox Sports
May 31st, 2022


Exclusive vision from Friday night’s controversial umpiring decision offers a new angle on the turn of events that sparked huge debate from the football world.

After giving away a free kick to Richmond’s Dion Prestia on the wing in the dying seconds of the contest, Swan Chad Warner wasn’t hit with a 50m penalty despite subsequently booting the ball into the stands in a dramatic ending to the game.

The AFL then ticked off the decision given the immediacy of the free kick being paid.

And Fox Footy’s AFL 360 team have highlighted behind-the-goals lab vision that shows how far away umpire Matt Stevic, who paid the free kick against Warner, was from the action, positioned inside the centre square.

AFL 360 co-host Gerard Whateley emphasised that given how distanced Stevic was from the contest, Warner nor any other player on the ground could’ve known the free kick was paid.

“He pays the free kick from inside the centre square, and he’s not signalling until after the siren’s gone,” Whateley said.

“So he’s blown the whistle and he’s talking to his colleague in his ear. Warner has no prospect, none, in fact none of the players on the spot have any prospect of knowing what Matt Stevic’s decision is before the siren is played.”

Fellow AFL 360 co-host Mark Robinson added: “He’s got really good eyesight to see the high contact, I’ll give him that. That’s a long way away to pay a free kick like that.”

Robinson then admitted he’d “waxed and waned” over the contentious decision all weekend, but ultimately believes “sometimes you’ve just got to embrace the impurities” of the game.

“You cannot buy the theatre that this game gives us,” he said.

“I put a post up on social media on Friday that this game has some challenges. You move a toenail on stand on the mark, it’s 50m (penalty), a guy boots it into the second level of the grandstand and it’s not 50m.

“Dustin Martin runs at the umpire, and that’s not dissent. Dylan Grimes is stopping Jack (Riewoldt) and others from going at the umpires, that’s not dissent.

“I’ve come to the conclusion I’m not as frustrated as I was on Friday night. We’ve got a crazy game, we’ve got a game that throws up so much.

“People say, ‘you’ve got to live and die by the whistle’, but we don’t because the umpires use discretion every game. There’s no black and white in our game.

“We’ve got a whole book of rules, that I reckon half of them can be interpreted by umpires differently.

“Instead of going, ‘oh, this is crazy our game.’ We’ve got to say, ‘oh, how good is our game because it’s crazy?’”

Whateley reiterated that in this instance, he believed there was no evidence to slap Warner with a 50m penalty.

“The answer to our question has to be in that rule book though,” he said.

“From where Matt Stevic is blowing that whistle, to where the siren sounds, it’s the only decision. He hadn’t even pointed by the time the ball was in the stands.

“No one’s got any prospect at that stage given how far away that is from the action.”

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2022-lab-vision-of-matt-stevic-video-no-50m-penalty-against-chad-warner-for-kicking-the-ball-into-scg-crowd-sydney-swans-defeat-richmond-tigers/news-story/1f965ae2ba904648f1478eb13ca436c7

Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2168 on: June 03, 2022, 05:04:46 AM »
Inflation hits 50m penalties as dissent concern remains

Peter Ryan
The Age
June 3, 2022


Despite the dissent rule, the protected area prohibition, the stand silliness and the kick-it-over-the-fence, common-sense confusion, the number of 50-metre penalties paid in the first 11 rounds of 2022 remains lower than the number awarded in the first 11 rounds in 2018.

That’s right.

However, the number of 50m penalties paid in the first 11 rounds in 2022 is up 57 per cent compared to the same period last season which is the biggest year-on-year jump for the past 10 seasons.

Last Friday night’s controversial decision by umpires Matt Stevic and John Howarth not to award Dion Prestia a 50m penalty, when Chad Warner roosted the Sherrin to Coogee Beach rather than give it back to his Tigers opponent after he was awarded a free kick in the split-second before the final siren sounded, kept the number of 50m penalties awarded in 2022 so far to 230.

That’s four fewer than were awarded in the first 11 rounds of 2018 when then North Melbourne coach and now head of football at the AFL, Brad Scott, warned the AFL that an overly strict interpretation of the protected area rule would “drive supporters nuts”.

Funnily enough, 2018 was a year when no rule changes were made. However, a spike in the number of 50m penalties paid occurred that season because umpires became stricter on players who passed through the protected area (which was introduced in 1996 but has tightened regularly since) while their opponents looked to kick the ball.



Three-time grand final umpire Mathew James, who finished up with the AFL in 2010 after 206 matches, said it has become a hard game to umpire.

“Has the player moved off the mark, has the player with ball moved, what are you looking for? I find it very complicated. I don’t think it would be enjoyable from an umpiring perspective,” James said. “The reality is they are only adjudicating what they are being instructed to adjudicate.”

This season is just the fourth occasion in the past 10 seasons when more than 200 50m penalties have been paid in the first 11 rounds, with James questioning whether football followers wanted to see so many 50m penalties awarded.

There has been a massive hike compared to last season, too, when just 146 50m penalties were paid in the opening 11 rounds, a 57 per cent increase, the largest year-on-year increase in the past decade.



The highest number of 50m penalties awarded during a single round this season was in round four when umpires blew the whistle to award 31 50m penalties.

That is still below round 18, 2007, when 37 50m penalties were awarded during a single round with one fewer game played in the 16-team competition.

James praised the umpire’s decision to not award Richmond a 50m penalty at the end of the match against Sydney and said common sense needed to be regularly applied when umpires made decisions, particularly as the rules were so grey.

“We over-umpire the game and we keep implementing rules that are grey ... if rules are black and white, the players are much more understanding of it and can play to the rules better,” James said. “The AFL have to be proactive about what the interpretation is.”

Since the 50m penalty replaced the 15m penalty in 1988, the number of ways in which a team can incur a 50m penalty has dramatically increased.

------------------------------------
The number of ways teams can now concede a 50m penalty has increased

1. A player or official from the opposing team: (a) has moved off the mark; (b) when in the immediate contest, unreasonably holds a player after that player has marked the football or been awarded a free kick; (c) when not in the immediate contest, holds a player after that player has marked the football or been awarded a free kick; (d) enters or does not make every endeavour to immediately vacate the protected area, except when the player is accompanying or following within two metres of their opponent; (e) has not returned the football directly and on the full to the player awarded the mark or free kick; (f) engages in any conduct which delays or impedes the play; or (g) engages in any other conduct for which a free kick would ordinarily be awarded

2. One team has more than permitted members on playing surface

3. Interchange infringement.

4. Attacking team delays play during opposition kick-in.

5. A six-six-six breach.

6. A player delays or impedes play or acts in an unsportsmanlike manner.

7. A player prevents an opponent from taking part in the next act of play.

8. A player from the opposing team impedes or delays the player with the football whilst the mark is being advanced, a second 50-metre penalty shall be imposed.
-------------------------------------------------------

Penalties for dissent has been the biggest issue among fans, even though players and coaches have been supportive of the move to protect umpires in a bid to grow their numbers, with the game experiencing a shortage across the nation.

James suspects the low-tolerance approach will have an opposite effect.

“I think it’s going to have an adverse effect on umpiring at lower levels. I think it will drive kids away because the backlash is greater now and they don’t have the skill set or experience to deal with players and often players don’t have the control they need to show if a free kick is paid,” James said.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/inflation-hits-50m-penalties-as-dissent-concern-remains-20220601-p5aqdk.html

Offline mightytiges

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2169 on: June 04, 2022, 10:36:29 PM »
How other games are umpired differently.

Q3 1:23 to go - Oliver punches the ball out of Rowbottom's hands after the mark. No 50.

End of Q3 - Ladhams late on Oliver after the mark. No 50.

No such leniency is given to us ::).


Q4 5:25 to go - Gulden paid a very soft free for a hold. Technically there but soft.

Q4 3:00 to go - Langdon accidently lands with the knees on Papley as he dives for the footy. Technically there.

The type of frees we don't get especially in our forward line.
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Offline JP Tiger

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2170 on: June 04, 2022, 11:35:42 PM »
From the list of ways to concede a 50mtr penalty - (e) has not returned the football directly and on the full to the player awarded the mark or free kick;  ... yet the article lauds the umpires for not awarding a 50mtr penalty after the siren last week in Sydney! 
What the heck is that opinion doing in this article?  By the letter of the rules we were absolutely shafted last week but parts of the media are choosing to support the over-ruling of the field umpire who wanted to pay the 50!  They even applaud the decision to go with 'common sense', regardless of the written rules!
 
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Offline Andyy

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2171 on: June 05, 2022, 10:31:22 AM »
How other games are umpired differently.

Q3 1:23 to go - Oliver punches the ball out of Rowbottom's hands after the mark. No 50.

End of Q3 - Ladhams late on Oliver after the mark. No 50.

No such leniency is given to us ::).


Q4 5:25 to go - Gulden paid a very soft free for a hold. Technically there but soft.

Q4 3:00 to go - Langdon accidently lands with the knees on Papley as he dives for the footy. Technically there.

The type of frees we don't get especially in our forward line.

That last one to Papley was technically there but it wasn't really Langdon's fault.

I guess you have to give credit to Papley for getting to the ball first and wanting it more.

Offline The Machine

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2172 on: June 05, 2022, 11:07:16 AM »
How other games are umpired differently.

Q3 1:23 to go - Oliver punches the ball out of Rowbottom's hands after the mark. No 50.

End of Q3 - Ladhams late on Oliver after the mark. No 50.

No such leniency is given to us ::).


Q4 5:25 to go - Gulden paid a very soft free for a hold. Technically there but soft.

Q4 3:00 to go - Langdon accidently lands with the knees on Papley as he dives for the footy. Technically there.

The type of frees we don't get especially in our forward line.

That last one to Papley was technically there but it wasn't really Langdon's fault.

I guess you have to give credit to Papley for getting to the ball first and wanting it more.


Langdon should have kept his feet in that situation, then fall over Papley's body. This would have resulted in the pathetic rule of taking the legs. Free to Langdon in this instance.

Online WilliamPowell

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2173 on: June 05, 2022, 02:17:28 PM »
Have to disagree regarding the Langdon/Papley one

Was really poor by Langdon, knees in the centre of Papley's back, could have been avoided.

The Gulden one was a shocker
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2174 on: June 05, 2022, 04:04:08 PM »
I wasn't saying the Langdon/Papley one was completely wrong. More that it's the type of free we don't get. A week or so ago either Cotch or Prestia (I can't remember) had an opponent fall straight into their back while on the ground and it wasn't paid. All we ask for consistency and the same rules apply to us.

Langdon should have kept his feet in that situation, then fall over Papley's body. This would have resulted in the pathetic rule of taking the legs. Free to Langdon in this instance.
What just happened in the Hawthorn-Collingwood game. Darcy Moore slides in first to rush the ball through for a behind and then Sam Butler comes from behind and falls over Moore's body and it's stupidly paid taking out the legs.

Welcome to the current rules of the AFL where contrary decisions are both correct :help.
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