Author Topic: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?  (Read 1451 times)

Offline Razorblade

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Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« on: September 06, 2005, 03:24:14 PM »
The way i look at it our defense is fragile as it is, and when you consider that Gasper and Kellaway are both about 30 and would only have a couple of years left each, our defense is a major part of our list that has to be addressed.

Graham was a bandaid solution to our defense, and while it worked well, he is now retired.

Gasper and Kellaway are very good defenders in their own right, however we have to look past these two and towards the future.

Hall, who will be 25 1/2 come the start of next season, has been a revelation in defense this year after a poor 2004 in that end of the ground.

Now while he will never be as good as defender as Gas and Andy, he is a very handy player, who can also play up the ground (Hawks game) and pinch hit in the ruck, and i hope he is re-signed by the club.

Bowden is a Flanker/Sweeper, and a bloody good one two (his AA selection backs that up) but IMO he is NOT a key defender, yes i know he took care of Brown up at the Gabba in 2004 but that was one game, there have been many other games where he has been playing as a key defender and has gotten creamed (The most infamous example of this was the West Coast game where debutant Edwards took him to the cleaners early, before someone else was put on him and Edwards preceeded to have no impact on the game, he then played played 3 more AFL games, doing very little, and is now struggling in the WAFL so i have heard).

So i guess our current lineup of our backline would be:
B: --------, Gasper, -----------
HB: Kellaway, Hall, Bowden

Thursfield was a revelation towards the 2nd half of the year, playing 6 games and acquitting himself admirably against opponents such as O'Loughlin and Milne, arguably decent forwards on any given day.

His height (190cm) and his body type/the way he plays suggest he will never be a key defender, but more of a Small/Medium defender, who can also run it out of the backline, essentially a Flanker.

Maybe after a few years be may grow a little bit and bulk up like Eagles of the 1992 pre-season and be able to play in a key defensive post, but i am not counting on it.

He is only 20 at the start of next season, so he is definetly a 10+ year player, if he continues to improve, he is no certainty to make it yet, but the early signs are promising.

For the time being though, lets put him in a Back Pocket, as thats where he played most of his games this year.

B: Thursfield, Gasper, -----------
HB: Kellaway, Hall, Bowden

The next cap off the rank if Newman, poor Chris is a midfielder who has been forced to play in defense thanks to our crappy recruiting and list management over the past few seasons.

While he has done nice things in defense, talking strong marks and providing run off the half-back line through the midfield, linking up play, he has also been shown up when he has been forced to play 1v1 in defense.

Now i am not going to hold it against him, because IMO his place his in the midfield, but he has clearly shown that he is NOT a very capable defender.

So for 2006, Chris is "banished"  :rollin to the midfield, and out of our defense, hopefully.

Schulzy, our next CHB, you have to be kidding me!

Sure this kid has a tank and a half of potential, and has essentially lost a season due to a nasty anke injury, but he is a forward by nature.

IMO he is similar to McPharlin in the way he plays the game, although i tend to think Schulz might be under orders to cut back on the hangtime.

Anyone can look good playing as a loose man in Defense (Jason Cloke anyone?) but when it comes to 1v1 contests in defense, Schulz............ well........... i've never seen him in one at AFL level, and not in the couple of Coburg games i've seen either.

The Geelong game looked pretty good, but don't get carried away by that performance, we were playing TWO loose men in defense all day.

We need replacements for Richo, and Schulz is one of them (potentially).

He is still very young at 21 at the start of next season, and like i said above this season could nearly be considered a write off due to injuries and personal problems (aka catching up with a mate, getting smashed, and playing 2 Fast 2 Furious on the way home in his car).  :rollin

Now that Fiora is gone, and Pettifer is playing great football, tiger fans need another high draft pick to go after, and unfortunately Schulz is looking like an easy target (especially if Tambling goes great guns early next season).

People need to have patience with him, as IMO a couple of years down the track he could be anything, but as for playing in defense, maybe as a pinch-hitting option if we are struggling with injuries, or as a loose man taking uncontested marks, but anything after that, no thanks.

Kelvin Moore, who was the Thursfield of 2004 (young guy, on rookie list, floating around in defense and doing a few nice things) looked promising, but injuries and a move to the forward line seems to have put Moore in a bad position.

He is a simliar height and build to Thursfield, plays a bit like him too, but isn't as athletic or skilled IMO.

He kicked a bag or two of goals down at Coburg, and looked good as a forward against Carlton, however, this is the same Carlton backline that has conceded the most points in the AFL this year, so that performance must not be taken on face value.

Besides that, poor Kel hasn't done a whole lot else, he is given wraps for his performance against Franklin in round 21, however i don't think it was as good as some people have made it out to be.

Moore is 22 going into next season, and 2005 is definetly a make-or-break year for him.

As far as playing in defense goes, IMO you couldn't play Moore and Thursfield in the same backline, as their games are very, very similar.

I don't know what to do with him, if we get injuries or suspension to our backline, he will be called upon (if he is still on the list mind you) and will have his opportunities to come thorugh, if he can do it, i don't really know.

Morrison and Hilton won't be on our list in 2006 (if common sense prevails) so i won't really comment on them, but i will say that IMO Morrison is a bit stiff not to have gotten more of an opportunity in the seniors and Hilton showed some potential as a small defender, but meh, i won't lose sleep if/when they are delisted.

It has been said that Archibald goes alright in defense at Coburg, it has also been said that he will be delisted, so who knows with him.

The kid seems to have a bit of agro in him, which i like in a player, so hopefully he is kept on the list.

19/20yo tall who had OP in his first season, he should consider himself a bit screwed over if he is delisted.

Who else can we get to fix our rusty (old) and leaking (crappy) defense?

Hopefully we draft a kid or two higher up who can play defense, and not rely on the rookie list to build our defense.

I hope that we recruit some mature aged (21-22yo) guy from the VFL/SANFL/WAFL or similar leagues who is a excellent defender at that level and who has never gotten an opportunity at AFL level.

Or we could pick off a defender or two from other clubs.

The whole "pick 8 for Jared Rivers" idea i heard i don't like, at all.

With late picks, or the PSD draft, we should look to pick up a defender who has been given the ass from another club.

Yes i know, recycled players are the root of all evil, but its better then drafting another HFF!

Players such as Barid (25yo, Kangaroos) and Hunt (23yo, Essendon) both look like being delisted, and IMO could be another bandaid solution to our defense, you never know, all they might need are opportunities to improve and become solid defenders.

Baird had a very good game against the Saints a few weeks ago, and his VFL form is solid, while Hunt has never been given a go by Sheedy.

I was thinking Livingston from Carlton aswell, but apparently he has re-signed with the club.


Now that i've typed all that, im going to lay down, i have a headache!  :banghead

Offline the_boy_jake

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2005, 03:29:52 PM »
Didn't get through all of that (at work), but let me say that I am no more impressed by Thursfield than I was after Royce Vardy's first few games. Point being that things could go bad very quickly. He seems very accountable, but is not going to be a runner out of the back line (anyone seen Bambi lol) and is an average kick judging by a few of the games I saw (possibly nerves)

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2005, 05:29:13 PM »
Newman is a rebounding half back flanker not a back pocket. I always like the comparison CJH gave when he was on the old tigerfury site that Newman was similar to Andrew Mackay of Carlton. Problem this year was we had no one else to fill the back pocket role. Hartigan was an alternative but he got injured early on, Chaffey was made a tagger because in 2004 he was the turnover king in defence and Hilton was last bid desparate measure which failed. Jason Torney was our last decent back-pocket who could shut down the small forwards most weeks. 

Our defence IMO in a few years time with Gas and Kellaway retired.

B: -----   ------   ------
HB: Newman  ------  Bowden

Razor was very useful this year but he's really a fill in. Thursfield may replace Kellaway but it's too early to judge. He's very composed for a youngster. I wouldn't compare him to Royce Vardy :o. Likewise Moore is competing for the same position although he didn't do anything this year to make you think he'll make it. Archibald has got the chop. McGuane and Limbach are speculative talls while Patto is a ruck.forward and Schulz is a forward. We are extremely thin on our list for backline talls.

Our defence especially our key position spots needs a total reconstruction not just a cosmetic fiddle. I'd rather do the hard yards and draft/rookie list our way through it with possibly of being lucky and recruiting one 20yo say key defender only if they are half decent such as Brisbane were with Mal Michael and Geelong with Tom Harley.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline Razorblade

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2005, 05:39:06 PM »
Newman can play as a rebounding HBF, but i would prefer him up the ground a lot more.

Its all well and good to rebuild our defense through the draft, i somewhat agree with you, however we will have to top it up, or we will have a defense filled with older players who aren't defenders, or a bunch of 20-21yo's!

I'd like it if we got a Baird, Hunt, even a J.Cloke cheaply with a late pick or the PSD, or as a filler in another trade.

There is a lot of talk that we will take Drum in the draft, however he doesn't sound like a true KPP.

Offline the_boy_jake

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2005, 05:49:10 PM »
Funny how people get different opinions of players. I've only seen Thursfield play three times, so will defer to your opinon, but each time I saw him, it took him ages to lift his head, he runs with the ball moving from side to side in his hands and consequently miskicks too much, and has an odd running action for a champion runner (?). Composed is not the first word that comes to mind, more of a scrapper for mine. I agree that he might eventually replace kellaway.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2005, 06:32:24 PM »
Fair enough Jake. To me Thursty just seemed to do the right things for a defender and showed some footy brains. But like you say everyone's opinion is different. He's only played 3 games so he's still got to prove himself at this level. Having good VFL form can be misleading - Adam Houlihan anyone :-\. Will's played well in 2 of those games IMO and got carved up by Waite in the other (although there wasn't any midfield pressure that day as we got smashed in the centre by Kouta, Stevens and Scotland :( ). The jury is still out.

Newman can play as a rebounding HBF, but i would prefer him up the ground a lot more.

It would be a bonus if he could play further up the ground but he would need to improve his endurance and ability to win contested footy to play in the midfield.

Its all well and good to rebuild our defense through the draft, i somewhat agree with you, however we will have to top it up, or we will have a defense filled with older players who aren't defenders, or a bunch of 20-21yo's!

I'd like it if we got a Baird, Hunt, even a J.Cloke cheaply with a late pick or the PSD, or as a filler in another trade.

There is a lot of talk that we will take Drum in the draft, however he doesn't sound like a true KPP.

That's true but you don't want to top up with duds either. Baird will turn 26 next year.

Drum is 190cm so appears more the Utility Kellaway type.

footydraft.com has Josh Kennedy at No. 8 who is a KPP.

1. Marc Murphy (Oakleigh Chargers)
2. Xavier Ellis (Gippsland Power)
3. Patrick Ryder (East Fremantle)
4. Shannon Hurn (Central District)
5. Grant Birchall (Devonport)
6. Mitchell Clark (East Fremantle)
7. Beau Dowler (Oakleigh Chargers)
8. Josh Kennedy (East Fremantle)
9. Darren Pfeiffer (Norwood)
10. Marcus Drum (Murray Bushrangers)

http://www.footydraft.com/
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Ox

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2005, 07:37:08 PM »
Good posting boys.

Thursfield would probably deserve a fair crack next year,or at least will be required to have one due to
the reality he was played this year in that role.
I wouldn't call him a Royce Vardy type player  :lol as  he has the power of youth on his side,
not that Vardy was an old man,he just looked like he was.
Bottom line,u can tell the drinkers.

Our list and coach history has conditioned us to first be negative and then nothing will depress us

With things having turned around I truly believe that not only can we get the best out of our younger players but
our older ones as well.

This will create a new environment for the club to flourish and ultimately have our list play to its potential (and beyond)

I guess what I'm saying is we may be happily surprised with what stock we have but more importantly,need to give chance to
what we have.

Sure,we're in need of a cuppla KPPs,especially when Gas and Kell call it a day,which wont be too far away but we now have people at the club who are aware of this and professional enough to counter re-act,plan and deliver, It should no longer be the surpressed nightmare we have come to know.
In this we need to have faith. :thumbsup

C'monn my Tyges.

Offline Razorblade

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2005, 07:41:45 PM »
First off Thursfield has played 6 games.

Second off i believe i said in my original post that he was no certanity to make it.

He has potential from what i have seen of him, he is very agile, and it would of been handy if we had had him in the Melbourne game where Yze ran circles around Gasper.

Re: Baird, http://www.sportingpulse.com.au/nf/team_info.cgi?action=PSTATS&client=%40TRUenergy%20VFL%20%26%20TAC%20CUP%403020%4030661%40%40%403735666%40Port%20Melbourne%404%40VFL%20Seniors%401%40&pID=81381019&pname=John%20Baird&news_task=DETAIL

Good VFL form, not to mention being named in the best against the Saints, i have a friend whos a mad Kanga's supporter and he reckons he should of been given more of a go.

Ox

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2005, 07:44:31 PM »
First off Thursfield has played 6 games.

Second off i believe i said in my original post that he was no certanity to make it.



So ?

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2005, 05:48:33 PM »
You can't judge a player on one game and it was blowing a gale today so not the best day for precise kicking but from what I saw of the Bombers' Sam Hunt on tv today his disposal and decision making was pretty average.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

PuntRdRoar

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2005, 10:17:27 PM »
Just my opinion but I dont think our next premiership key defenders are at the club at this stage. We should draft our way to success even if it means we only get 1 this year and another 1  next year. Next year I will be praying that when its our turn to call a name, the name that comes out will be Mitch Thorp from Tasmania. Hes exactly the kid you could stick at FB for the next 12 years although he plays alot up forward as a key forward, hes also shown he play well down back!

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Our Defense: What to do about it Long-Term?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2005, 09:19:51 PM »
Another trade rumour doing the rounds is that Bomber Sum Hunt's manager and Essendon are trying to get a 3rd round pick off us for him even though there's a strong chance he'll be delisted by the Bombers anyway. A bit of wishful thinking me thinks.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd