what do you think?

[big tone]

Have we as a footy club jeopardised the chance for success trying to get rid of the tag of a club that sacks coaches?
Over the last 9 and a bit years we have employed 2 coaches that have not worked out. But surely with where we are at at the moment, should we keep Terry on just to dispel our bad record of coaches. I think not!
Sometimes the toughest decisions are not the easiest and may not make you look that good but i think at the moment we are taking the easy option to keep the media at bay. In the past we would have asked Terry to step down or sack him because he has failed to deliver what he promised, and that’s success. I thought that when TW was appointed that the 5 years would see us as premiers or at the very least fighting for one. Not just trying to scape into the finals in his last year.
Our  past administrations have been ruthless and  would have sacked him by now because average performances were not tolerated at the Richmond footy club regardless of how it made us look, now we sit back and bide time till his contract runs out.
What for!
A blind man can see Terry's time is up and if you cannot you are delusional.
The club it self may be in better shape than it was 5 years ago and TW has had something to do with that but the side running out every week is not. Some may argue that our list is in better shape and that maybe true but all that tells me that TW cannot coach anymore. He has better players under his command but with the same average results.
Now i don't hate Terry or Spud or any of the previous coaches, they have all done their best, whether we like it or not they have all tried really hard but failed. TW has made some mistakes with drafting and trading but he also had help with that but as the senior coach he has to wear the results. That's why they are paid the big bucks and get the pats on the back when things are going right.
What i think we should do is thank Terry for his time at Tigerland and send him on his way. We should give ourselves the best chance of getting the best coach possible. And if the fact that we sack coaches scares potential coaches, well maybe they were not right in the first place. We need someone who is willing to back himself and not worry if he is going to be sacked down the track if he fails.
What do you all think?

[Infamy]

I think people should wait until we mathematically can't make the finals

The buzzards were circling Mark Thompson prior to Round 6 2007

[mat073]

Im happy for Terry to fall on his own sword.....No finals No Terry next year.I am sure he will have enough integrity to resign when the time comes.We dont have to sack him....that wont solve the problems at Richmond.The Cancer was there before he arrived.Sack Terry mid year and all that will happen is a massive media circus.

I dont believe its a "Time is of the essence" situation.Realisticly how many clubs will be looking for a coach next year......Melbourne and Freo will give their coaches more time.If Collingwood want to replace Malthouse....nothing will stop Buckley going there.Only Port and North might consider a change if things go bad.

While the season still has a heart beat I will continue to support Terry. Essendon looked like a lost cause after round 11 last year.Who  would of thought they would win 6 out of the next 7.

[WilliamPowell]

What do you all think?

I think we will agree to disagree

My view hasn't changed, he has a contract it should be honoured and there is still 16 weeks to go.

I was asked on Monday morning by a BLues supporter at work "Do you stillthink you can make the finals?"

My naswer was yes we can because the numbers say we can but will we? I don't know, highly unlikely but until there's no chance .....

I understand it will make a lot of people feel better if he was to go now but it isn't going ot solve the problems of the RFC it would just be another attempt to patch over the cracks

[Moi]

I think people should wait until we mathematically can't make the finals

The buzzards were circling Mark Thompson prior to Round 6 2007

He does need some luck with a fit squad to pick from each week.  Every week there seems to be someone important missing.  Mainly, Cotch for me because he is the future.  Everyone wants him fit and ready and out on the park, but he's been missing.
Hope Terry can turn it around like Bomber did.

[Stripes]

I thought that when TW was appointed that the 5 years would see us as premiers or at the very least fighting for one. Not just trying to scape into the finals in his last year.

Our  past administrations have been ruthless and  would have sacked him by now because average performances were not tolerated at the Richmond footy club regardless of how it made us look, now we sit back and bide time till his contract runs out.
What for!

bigtone, you seem to have had very lofty expectations on the teams performance in the last 5 years. Fighting for a flag was never a realistic option when you are rebuilding a list. To be honest, I always felt finals would be a big stretch in five years unless the senior players played out of their skin.

I think Terry has done what he said he would - turnover the list and rebuild the list with youth. There is continued speculation that he had the team overperforming in the first year which hindered this process plus some trade choices which is argued also did some damage but ultimately the list is a completely different makeup than it was when he arrived.

I believe when will struggle to make the finals next year too. I think with the older players retiring it will not be until 2011 that we will make the finals and start to see some (to use a Terryism) 'sustained success'.

Is it time for TW to go - probably. We need a more team orienated, defensive, physical game style to compliment our run and carry and I'm not convinced Terry can give is that. But in saying that I don't think TW should be sacked or stood down when we have publically stated that we will make the call midyear based on a potential final appearance. To do so would take us back to the bad old says when rbuilding was out of the question because every coach had to have immediate success or be sacked. No quality coach would want to enter that environment - thus the Spud.

Our past administrations are nothing to revere. In fact they, and our rabid supporters, and the exact reason we have never attempted to rebuild and make the hard long term decisions. They have demanded premierships from coaches and thought that it was the coach that was the problem rather than the playing group.

The facts are that coaches are only as good as the players they have and Richmond has traded and made quick fixes for decades, never affording the club the time to groom young draft picks or giving the coach the licence to start again.

Sacking TW is exactly what the media and opposition supporters would love us to do so if for that reason alone I say we keep our word, wait until we can no longer make the finals and there by showing any future coaches we have changed and are an attractive option for the future.

If TW pulls out a miracle and we make the finals then he should to stay - but he still deserves the time to try.

We owe hime that much

Stripes

[big tone]

 I thought that when TW was appointed that the 5 years would see us as premiers or at the very least fighting for one. Not just trying to scape into the finals in his last year.

Our  past administrations have been ruthless and  would have sacked him by now because average performances were not tolerated at the Richmond footy club regardless of how it made us look, now we sit back and bide time till his contract runs out.
What for!


I think Terry has done what he said he would - turnover the list and rebuild the list with youth.

Stripes, the part, that i guess that annoys me the most about what you say is this, and i have said it before. Terry has done nothing you and i counldn't have done- he has drafted players, some young, some not so young but that's another subject, but this is what happens without any effort. In fact the AFL tells you as a club you have to draft every year, so i don't understand why you think he has done anything out of the ordinary??? The hard part is to develope them and COACH them to be good players and intern a good side.

Also your statement about us not able to be be fighting for premierships in his 5 years baffles me as well. The club itself must have thought 5 years should have been enough otherwise they would have given him longer.How long does it take to rebuild a club? Is there a curtain time frame we should have been told about? If so, nobody mentioned it to Hawthorn.

The other thing you mentioned is a "coach is only as good as his players", you seem to contradict yourself here a little, in one hand you say TW has "turned over the list and rebuilt the list with youth" and on the other you insinuate he has not got the cattle. Which is it???

Anyway, i must admit i like your rational approach to the circus that is this season. 


Edited to correct quote

[Stripes]

Stripes, the part, that i guess that annoys me the most about what you say is this, and i have said it before. Terry has done nothing you and i counldn't have done- he has drafted players, some young, some not so young but that's another subject, but this is what happens without any effort. In fact the AFL tells you as a club you have to draft every year, so i don't understand why you think he has done anything out of the ordinary??? The hard part is to develope them and COACH them to be good players and intern a good side.

Also your statement about us not able to be be fighting for premierships in his 5 years baffles me as well. The club itself must have thought 5 years should have been enough otherwise they would have given him longer.How long does it take to rebuild a club? Is there a curtain time frame we should have been told about? If so, nobody mentioned it to Hawthorn.

The other thing you mentioned is a "coach is only as good as his players", you seem to contradict yourself here a little, in one hand you say TW has "turned over the list and rebuilt the list with youth" and on the other you insinuate he has not got the cattle. Which is it???

Anyway, i must admit i like your rational approach to the circus that is this season. 

Interesting argument bigtone. I can actually see what you are saying regarding recuiting and turning over the list but I feel he, and moreso the club, did more in the way over delisting and drafting than was required which is why we have so many players in the under 23 bracket. Some would argue that we should have done more but other than probably 1 or 2 drafts we have drafted heavily. I have forgotten the actual figure but when he first arrived he removed approximately 1/4 of the list.

We have very few players now in the side from before TW and these are likely to go even if TW remains at the club next year.

I agree it is the coach directing his assistants and specialty staff who are responsible for the development of players and in some instances our players have not reached their potential. I wonder though if this is an unusual situation at any club and if perhaps our own expectations were too high to begin with. I'm not sure. The reality is though that some have not reached their potential where other have exceeded theirs so does this make him a good coach? Again I'm unsure.

My statement about my expectations regarding finals in 5 years I feel in valid. It is very rare that a team of 18 -21 year olds have the physical maturity, experience and consistency to make a sprint for the finals. Almost without exception a team is driven to the finals by a strong leadership group of senior player, supported heavily with a group of 23-27 year old players with a few young stars thrown in for good measure. We just don't have good leaders and we certainly haven't had enough 23-27 year olds in our team over the last 5 years to make a grab for finals action. This is why I never expected us to seriously make the finals over that rebuilding time.

Hawthorn have that mix and that is why they surprized everyone, including themselves, by pinching a GF. Their team is lifted by their mid-age players not their young 'stars' like Buddy.

In terms over the 'coach being only as good as his cattle' I don't feel I was controdicting myself. What I meant was that given the players ages, despite their development or skills (or lack thereof if you like for certain players) he can not make them suddenly age, gain experience and poise and be ready to play finals before they are ready. Steriods used to be a quick solution but now the best you can do in throw them into the side early, train them hard and hope they follow your instructions.

Glad you like my rational approach and yes it is a circus this year and we just lost our headline act...

Stripes

[big tone]

Stripes, the part, that i guess that annoys me the most about what you say is this, and i have said it before. Terry has done nothing you and i counldn't have done- he has drafted players, some young, some not so young but that's another subject, but this is what happens without any effort. In fact the AFL tells you as a club you have to draft every year, so i don't understand why you think he has done anything out of the ordinary??? The hard part is to develope them and COACH them to be good players and intern a good side.

Also your statement about us not able to be be fighting for premierships in his 5 years baffles me as well. The club itself must have thought 5 years should have been enough otherwise they would have given him longer.How long does it take to rebuild a club? Is there a curtain time frame we should have been told about? If so, nobody mentioned it to Hawthorn.

The other thing you mentioned is a "coach is only as good as his players", you seem to contradict yourself here a little, in one hand you say TW has "turned over the list and rebuilt the list with youth" and on the other you insinuate he has not got the cattle. Which is it???

Anyway, i must admit i like your rational approach to the circus that is this season. 

Interesting argument bigtone. I can actually see what you are saying regarding recuiting and turning over the list but I feel he, and moreso the club, did more in the way over delisting and drafting than was required which is why we have so many players in the under 23 bracket. Some would argue that we should have done more but other than probably 1 or 2 drafts we have drafted heavily. I have forgotten the actual figure but when he first arrived he removed approximately 1/4 of the list.

So let me get this straight- our list when TW took over was "no good" so he got rid of alot of them, drafted SOME kids and because of this he has done a good job! Like i said before you don't have to be Einsteine to work out that had to be done. Simple stuff really. I just don't get what you see he has done so great for our club, i really cannot!
As for the ages of players and age brackets, it's all crap! You say we don't have good leaders BUT again TW has had control over this for the last 5 years. I know what you will say about that but should we keep these guys on our list if they are no good only because of there ages?
Finally are we at where you thought we would be 4 and a bit years after TW took over?  If not then maybe just maybe Terry has failed.

[camboon]

It achieves nothing by sacking him, it will just show that we are weak leaderless club again. Terry will go on his own accord if he doesn't get the club up this year and I believe we should let that happen.

I would suggest that he would eventually call it a day publicly if we cant make the finals and coach in the best interest of the clubs future (list management).

PS: please no more wasted picks on other clubs discards. Thomson and Hislop just don't seem to cut the mustard.

[Infamy]

What people seem to forget is that it takes time for a new coach to come in and stamp his authority on a side and get them to learn the gameplan. Look at StKilda, a regular finals side missed the 8 the first year that Ross Lyon took over and 3 years later are now playing very competitive football, but it's still taken 3 years to do it with a team of good players and plenty of early picks.

The only one I can really think of who turned a club around quickly in recent times is Neil Craig, but he's still not won anything.

[Jackstar is back]

we aint going to make the finals.

[mightytiges]

As others have said I would allow Plough to see out his contract. You'd expect come the second half of the year and finals mathematically out of the question he'll fall on his sword and announce as Spud did that this is his final year and he'll see out his contract. That'll allow the club to search for a new coach and to tank manipulate the side by playing the kids to get the best draft picks. We need more class and that only comes at the top end of the draft.

Wallace needed many things to go right for him to go beyond his 5-year deal. The club was counting on an initial window of finals around 2008 or 09 with the remaining older seniors players in combo with our younger players from the 2004-5 drafts. That would've given Terry another year or two grace through which we would dip as the oldies retire followed by a more sustained successful period built around the younger core we have now who'll be in their mid-20s from 2011 onwards. The first part (making finals) didn't happen due to the older guys not performing consistently and injuries (Cogs/Browny) combined with choices at the draft table in 2004-5 not coming on as expected and in the case of 2005 poor choices not coming on at all so far. Most of our 2004 draftees are now playing in the firsts but apart from Lids they haven't cemented their place in the side as there isn't that class factor to boost us up into finals contention. There's more class in our 2006-7 draftees. Too early to judge 2008 although we only drafted two kids  . One boo-boo too many on the recruiting front to save Terry.

Plough's chopping and changing of gamestyles and player positions hasn't helped either. After winning 8 of last 11 last year playing more 1-on-1 footy and with a settled back six it was a big mistake to alter things so dramatically over preseason just because of this fascination with zoning. He's been unlucky with injuries to our more classy key players but the failure to protect the ballcarrier in his gameplan will be the final nail in Plough's coaching career.    

As for the new coach he'll have three things that Plough didn't have when he started 4.5 years ago - (i) a financially stable club making regular profits and putting more resources into the club (we're still 12th in footy dept. spending based on figures out today), (ii) the actual better resources with Craigieburn and new Punt Rd, and (iii) a young core under 23 to build and develop a side around. It'll also be easier to make tough list management decisions (cutting older players) when there's 21-22 year olds with some AFL experience to replace them in the side rather than raw 17-18 year old boys.

[Ox]

I really don't give a stuff either way.

it's all bull poo and i'm sick of hearing the wanker banter that has been derived from a bored,underpaid and speculative media.

Play footy FFS!

[bojangles17]

bigtone, you seem to have had very lofty expectations on the teams performance in the last 5 years. Fighting for a flag was never a realistic option when you are rebuilding a list. To be honest, I always felt finals would be a big stretch in five years unless the senior players played out of their skin.


I believe when will struggle to make the finals next year too. I think with the older players retiring it will not be until 2011 that we will make the finals and start to see some (to use a Terryism) 'sustained success'.


Stripes

i dont believe that losing the >30 will be a major factor, they are having NO influence this year...here's hoping by season end we will showing positive signs of producing some fair replacements...

My thoughts are we are only an elite key forward from improving exponentially...our midfield is good and will prve to be better than that with cotchin firing ..the rucks are only raw but with alot of upside and the back half is excellant