One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Stripes on October 12, 2009, 03:35:13 PM
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During the slow off-season I thought it might be entertaining to run a few 'Face Offs' between key Tiger people. To begin the topic I thought our last two coaches might be an interesting place to start..... :o
So who was the better coach Spud or Wallace?
Stripes
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SPUD
for the experience he had compared to Leatherskin poo talker, the Spud by miles when it came to coaching
done a few things some didnot like but you cant please everyone including me
had more respect from the playing group & was liked by the supporters much more than the spin doctor
the supporters might have spat at him but l sure would have peeed on Wallace if l had a chance cause he was there for the money only.
Frawley was there trying to do his best & got us to finals with what he had.
Wallace talked it up for 2 years in the media saying what Richmond needed to do this & that & couldnot do any of it himself
Danny Frawley over Wallace anyday as a person & coach
l have never hated a coach so much as Terry look at me Wallet
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When Spud left the team was a complete and utter wasteland. The future was bleak.
When Wallace left at least there is some semblence of abilty in Lids Cotchin Post Vickery etc. The future is better
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When Spud left the team was a complete and utter wasteland. The future was bleak.
When Wallace left at least there is some semblence of abilty in Lids Cotchin Post Vickery etc. The future is better
Spud didnot do the recruiting so cant blame him for the list or the staff he never had
Wallet knew what was missing & never corrected the faults cause he had no idea what he was doing
as for the list well hello but Lids, Cotchin, Post Vickery have done nothing & aint dominated any games
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not surprising a shitman would like another......
Frawley is and was a total imbecile,trying to apply analogies from his mind to real life.
Frawley took up the coaching reigns at the Richmond Football Club in 2000, and had some early success, taking the Tigers to the finals in 2001 on the strength of the existing squad.
Unfortunately he couldn't replicate the club's first finals appearance since 1995 again during his tenure, with his team always getting off to solid starts, but then fading out towards the end of the season.
This continued in 2003, where, after a 6-2 start to the season, they lost 13 of their next 14 matches.
He has been accused of decimating the careers of champions and incapacitating those of young up and comers, with his tactically primitive game-plan and inability to gain the teams respect,ulitmately.
Frawley took his team to the wooden spoon in 2004, and midway through the season was publicly fired and quoted as saying, "I'm gutted...I thought I'd be here for another 10 years."
He later announced he would be stepping down at season's end in an attempt to maintain any credibility.
Most entertaining were his humorous,stuttering responses at press conferences,more often than not after a loss.
"Yeah...we definitley can't make the finals...but we sure can shape them."
Prior to this,Frawley was assistant coach at Collingwood where he once again delivered the wooden spoon to his employer
Since his departure from coaching he has utilised his,"expertise" as special comments man for Australian radio network,Triple M.
His co-hosts will often refer to him as "Spud Regal" and celebrate his presence as the programs unknowing comic relief.
Recently the programs anchor man,James Brayshaw,publicly berated Frawley for talking ill of his former club, Richmond, when Danny claimed he laughed at the level of skill on display as he drove past the clubs training ground.
He was taken to task over this by many a Richmond fan via Triple M`s routine talkback show post match on Saturday afternoons but refused to enagage callers saying "I don`t take any responsibilty ... build a bridge"
Additional Career Highlights
In 2006,Frawley was hired by Netball Australia as a motivational speaker prior to a gruelling tournament.
Spectators and athletes alike were left agog when Danny attempted to use the Australian coat of arms as a motivational tool,explaining it to be representative of two creatures that, "wont take a backward step...because they can't."
It was left to the individuals creative imagination to decipher exactly what the real message was,if there ever was one.
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Wallace was definitely a better match day coach, Frawley only ever had a Plan A and nothing else to fall back on
You'd say Frawley was a better bloke, however I'll still never forgive him for admitting to wearing StKilda socks to an official Richmond function.
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both.
:)
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Looking at their records, Spud has a Prelim final.
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Both terrible coaches in every sense- list management, game day, tactis, the lot.
Both left the list in a shambles.
Both i would run down in a car if i had the chance.
Both broke my heart.
One got us to the finals.
Spud by a nose.
Never thought i would say that five years ago.
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When Spud left the team was a complete and utter wasteland. The future was bleak.
When Wallace left at least there is some semblence of abilty in Lids Cotchin Post Vickery etc. The future is better
Agreed!!
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Frawley had the luxury of inheriting a much more competitive unit.
Look at the names Spud had at his disposal
Richo,Benny Gale,Knights,Broderick,Daffy,Bowden,Campbell,Leon Cameron,Gasper,both Kellaways,Matt Rogers,Torney and a young superstar in Ottens.
In many ways I believe that Spud happened to be in the right place at right time.Any coach worth his salt should of taken that list to the finals.
Who could forget Dannys dermoralising final year when Richmond went from being 4-4 to finish the season with 14 losses on the trot.
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Easy answer, as I worked under both.
Spud by the length of Flemington straight.
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Both terrible coaches.
Spud had early success and took us to finals albeit tokenly but he did not have the acumen to do much more. Was way in over his head by 2002 with his quick fixes and him not having the gonads to get rid of those undermining him and getting them to tow his line. By his last season once the spitter was named and shamed and it was evident that Danny was not going to coach us in 2005 the media and the public just felt sorry for Danny and conveniently forgot he still had a job to do and coach our club which he did badly. In the end he moved on to the media where he is still out of his depth and treated with in a jocular way much like his coaching career.
In Terry's mind he thought he was God or at worse one level below God so when he arrived we treated him as the Messiah. He thought in his own mind his forte was miracles and that miracle for us long suffering fans was finals. We still believed him and after a 7-2 start who could blame the majority of us. It was Xmas for us every week, but then like Lucifer he was too proud and along with his sins came a break in the leg of one of clubs matchwinners. No miracle was to be attained.
By 2007 it was pretty clear that Terry was not The Messiah but a man whose ego was bigger than the game itself and that he had no plan at all. He had no healing powers no miracles that accompanied those powers bar an occassional unexpected upturn in fortune that was so fleeting that if you blinked you would miss it. Like his predecessor he has moved into the media where his babbling overanalysis only suggests to me that he loves the sound of his own voice.
In the end both failed although Frawley's coaching cv as bad as it is has a prliminary final on it at the RFC. To me Frawley is one of those dumb criminals you might see on World Dumbest Criminals, Worl'd Worse Police Chasers and The Dried Sultana is what can only be classified as a serial killer. Boosted his ego by holding us all in our hands only to shatter us when we pleaded for mercy. Can anyone remember a season as bleak as we had this year after all the hype. Thank you Terry. You shattered 40000 souls with your crap. Your tenure was worse than Jamestown in 1978. Our mass murder was in rd 1 2009. 40000 of us never to recover.
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At least Spud is still on talking terms with the players he coached, unlike the tanned one :banghead
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Thank you Terry. You shattered 40000 souls with your crap. Your tenure was worse than Jamestown in 1978. Our mass murder was in rd 1 2009. 40000 of us never to recover.
I think you mean Jonestown Tucker - Jim Jones and his followers ;D
In answer to the pole
I really don't care there gone and forgotten :thumbsup
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Thank you Terry. You shattered 40000 souls with your crap. Your tenure was worse than Jamestown in 1978. Our mass murder was in rd 1 2009. 40000 of us never to recover.
I think you mean Jonestown Tucker - Jim Jones and his followers ;D
In answer to the pole
I really don't care there gone and forgotten :thumbsup
Yes my quoting on History is not as good as yours WP. :thumbsup
It was November 1978. Jonestown Guyana I believe. Thanks for that champ. :bow
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Yes my quoting on History is not as good as yours WP. :thumbsup
It was November 1978. Jonestown Guyana I believe. Thanks for that champ. :bow
Yeah that's it
Only remember because I watched a doco on it the other week on Foxtel's History channel
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I really don't care there gone and forgotten :thumbsup
If only that was true WP. Their list management, player development, game plans and culture cultivation will live on well beyond their tenure at Punt Road. It will take more than one year of consistent change and hard training to even begin to correct the path that these two have set our list upon.
Stripes
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I really don't care there gone and forgotten :thumbsup
If only that was true WP. Their list management, player development, game plans and culture cultivation will live on well beyond their tenure at Punt Road. It will take more than one year of consistent change and hard training to even begin to correct the path that these two have set our list upon.
Stripes
Yeah yeah I know stripes
But I am slowly starting to warm to my club again and to think about those 2 doesn't help my cause ;D
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LOL this is a face off between tweedle dee and tweedle dum
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LOL this is a face off between tweedle dee and tweedle dum
They could make a movie and call it "Dumb and Dumber"!! Oh wait, that's already been done. :lol
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LOL this is a face off between tweedle dee and tweedle dum
They could make a movie and call it "Dumb and Dumber"!! Oh wait, that's already been done. :lol
maybe they should make a movie ... "Spud & Plough: Based On A True Story"
:)
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LOL this is a face off between tweedle dee and tweedle dum
They could make a movie and call it "Dumb and Dumber"!! Oh wait, that's already been done. :lol
maybe they should make a movie ... "Spud & Plough: Based On A True Story"
:)
Scalloped Spuds.
Two men 1 result. The story of a man who grows them and a man who looks likes them. :thumbsup
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LOL this is a face off between tweedle dee and tweedle dum
They could make a movie and call it "Dumb and Dumber"!! Oh wait, that's already been done. :lol
maybe they should make a movie ... "Spud & Plough: Based On A True Story"
:)
Scalloped Spuds.
Two men 1 result. The story of a man who grows them and a man who looks likes them. :thumbsup
stuffen prick l spat coke all over my screen :rollin
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Spud was a s hithouse coach but he was better than the Suntanned one.
Spud wins.
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Wallace the tool's name should be banned from this website ever again.
He completely screwed us over big time, with the list and his own selfish agenda that he pushed time and time again
Spud for all his faults took us to finals, where we beat the Blues. Now anyone who thinks that wasn't a better feeling that what this fool did in 5 years is beyond me.
But for me the worst thing Wallet ever did was after he knew he was leaving when he bagged us out. The "train wreck" comment was a disgrace and not to mention the comments about "if im to take credit for the Tigers recruitment then i should take credit for the Buldogs also". who gives a flying stuff about the Buldogs we only care about the RFC.
This guy is an embarrassment to himself and to the football world and what a suprrise the only people that rate him as a person and football person is SEN. The radio station where all sacked coaches can get a job.
Spud was a better person through and through and never once bagged the club, and always stood up for his players to the media during his time.
The club is all the better for it, its a shame it took 5 years when most people knew he was a tiprat 3 years ago
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Wallace the tool's name should be banned from this website ever again.
He completely screwed us over big time, with the list and his own selfish agenda that he pushed time and time again
Spud for all his faults took us to finals, where we beat the Blues. Now anyone who thinks that wasn't a better feeling that what this fool did in 5 years is beyond me.
But for me the worst thing Wallet ever did was after he knew he was leaving when he bagged us out. The "train wreck" comment was a disgrace and not to mention the comments about "if im to take credit for the Tigers recruitment then i should take credit for the Buldogs also". who gives a flying eff about the Buldogs we only care about the RFC.
This guy is an embarrassment to himself and to the football world and what a suprrise the only people that rate him as a person and football person is SEN. The radio station where all sacked coaches can get a job.
Spud was a better person through and through and never once bagged the club, and always stood up for his players to the media during his time.
The club is all the better for it, its a shame it took 5 years when most people knew he was a tiprat 3 years ago
Totally agree Daniel.
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Spud has the runs on the board with a premiership under his belt but Wallace has left us more to work with (well at least it seems that way at the moment). Spud was a better bloke who would have made a great captain or assistant coach but lacked the tactical nous, teaching skills and focus that all good coaches possess. TW was great tactically and was a student of the game but lacked the know-with-all to pass this onto the players who found his message confusing rather than inspirational. Spud was hands on but TW was distant. Spud was clueless in front of the media which just caused the Tigers faithful to lose hope and becoming increasingly disillusioned and frustrated (projectile spit anyone?). TW was a spin doctor who kept the masses as bay by selling a message of long term hope which allowed the club to make a half arsed attempt at rebuilding.
All in all its hard to split the two - if loyalty, passion and honesty was the criteria for a good coach Spud would win hands down but if media nous, tactics and professionalism was the crucial criteria then Wallace would win.
Even though I am thoroughly disillusioned with Wallace's disloyalty, correct strategy (1% are non existent) and self preserving trading, I still think he has left us with more to work with than Spud did. Whether than is enough is another story but I still think we now have the skeleton of a good team. We just need Hardwick and our recruiters to add some flesh and muscle now! :thumbsup
Stripes
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SPUDS RICHMOND 2000-04
Games....113
won....45
Lost....68
win %...39.82
Richmonds ranking during this period....13th
Spud had a winning record of 57% after his first two seasons.His final 3 seasons saw Richmond win only 18 of 66 games @ 27%
TERRY & JADES RICHMOND 2005-09
Games...110
won...40
lost...67
Draws...3
win % 37.73
Richmonds ranking during this period....13th
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Scalloped Spuds.
Two men 1 result. The story of a man who grows them and a man who looks likes them. :thumbsup
Best laugh I have had in a while :lol
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TW was great tactically and was a student of the game
Disagree strongly with this statement.
Great tactically, good student? From where I was sitting it was just one great jumbled mess that was made up as he went along.
Wallet had game plans and ideas about structure and team discipline about as far away from a premiership model as one could get but he could sure talk. :P
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TW was great tactically and was a student of the game
Disagree strongly with this statement.
Great tactically, good student? From where I was sitting it was just one great jumbled mess that was made up as he went along.
Wallet had game plans and ideas about structure and team discipline about as far away from a premiership model as one could get but he could sure talk. :P
What I'm trying to say here MM is that is knew everyone else's game plan inside and out and knew how it worked and how to counter it...unfortunately he never knew his own team and always tried to get his players to undertake actions or tactics they were not capable of doing. The only clever tactic is engineered which he successfully lead his team to use is the chip backwards/possession style ploy which saw off Adelaide. He was able to break down Hawthorns Zone too with simple strategy.
The big thing TW lacked was the ability to educate. He reminds me a bit of a Maths Secondary teacher I once had who Maths seemed so simple and straight forward that he just could not comprehend how anyone else could not understand it as easily as him.
TW tried to make us a Geelong and based his whole recruitment strategy based on that current trend. He was convinced that the new game style was all moving to an uncontested model with fast, athletic player types dominating the league. Unfortunately for him (and us) Sydney used a contested model to counter this style which then Hawthorn and Geelong adapted to create a zone game which disabled the skinny skillful players and pressured their ball use. While other teams continued to adapt, Terry was always playing catch up.
The best teams lead and forge ahead with new innovations where TW was always trying to find the best tactical and structural team model and change his list into that. If he had of followed his team mates adaptive approach in Eade, he would have realized that it is not one size fits all and changed his game plan to suit his list and young players.
I just hope Hardwick learns from Terry's mistakes and realizes that while it is sensible to use the best offensive and defensive strategies from other teams, ultimately you need to find what works best for you and you players.
So I think TW was a good student of the game, just not a good teacher.
Stripes
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TW was great tactically and was a student of the game
Disagree strongly with this statement.
Great tactically, good student? From where I was sitting it was just one great jumbled mess that was made up as he went along.
Wallet had game plans and ideas about structure and team discipline about as far away from a premiership model as one could get but he could sure talk. :P
What I'm trying to say here MM is that is knew everyone else's game plan inside and out and knew how it worked and how to counter it...unfortunately he never knew his own team and always tried to get his players to undertake actions or tactics they were not capable of doing. The only clever tactic is engineered which he successfully lead his team to use is the chip backwards/possession style ploy which saw off Adelaide. He was able to break down Hawthorns Zone too with simple strategy.
The big thing TW lacked was the ability to educate. He reminds me a bit of a Maths Secondary teacher I once had who Maths seemed so simple and straight forward that he just could not comprehend how anyone else could not understand it as easily as him.
TW tried to make us a Geelong and based his whole recruitment strategy based on that current trend. He was convinced that the new game style was all moving to an uncontested model with fast, athletic player types dominating the league. Unfortunately for him (and us) Sydney used a contested model to counter this style which then Hawthorn and Geelong adapted to create a zone game which disabled the skinny skillful players and pressured their ball use. While other teams continued to adapt, Terry was always playing catch up.
The best teams lead and forge ahead with new innovations where TW was always trying to find the best tactical and structural team model and change his list into that. If he had of followed his team mates adaptive approach in Eade, he would have realized that it is not one size fits all and changed his game plan to suit his list and young players.
I just hope Hardwick learns from Terry's mistakes and realizes that while it is sensible to use the best offensive and defensive strategies from other teams, ultimately you need to find what works best for you and you players.
So I think TW was a good student of the game, just not a good teacher.
Stripes
:sleep :sleep :sleep
that post was about as exciting as listening to one of Terry's post game speeches.
"good student of the game"....BANG!!! there it is ladies and gentleman the comment of 2009
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Spud has the runs on the board with a premiership under his belt
He has what???
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TW was great tactically and was a student of the game
Disagree strongly with this statement.
Great tactically, good student? From where I was sitting it was just one great jumbled mess that was made up as he went along.
Wallet had game plans and ideas about structure and team discipline about as far away from a premiership model as one could get but he could sure talk. :P
What I'm trying to say here MM is that is knew everyone else's game plan inside and out and knew how it worked and how to counter it...unfortunately he never knew his own team and always tried to get his players to undertake actions or tactics they were not capable of doing. The only clever tactic is engineered which he successfully lead his team to use is the chip backwards/possession style ploy which saw off Adelaide. He was able to break down Hawthorns Zone too with simple strategy.
The big thing TW lacked was the ability to educate. He reminds me a bit of a Maths Secondary teacher I once had who Maths seemed so simple and straight forward that he just could not comprehend how anyone else could not understand it as easily as him.
TW tried to make us a Geelong and based his whole recruitment strategy based on that current trend. He was convinced that the new game style was all moving to an uncontested model with fast, athletic player types dominating the league. Unfortunately for him (and us) Sydney used a contested model to counter this style which then Hawthorn and Geelong adapted to create a zone game which disabled the skinny skillful players and pressured their ball use. While other teams continued to adapt, Terry was always playing catch up.
The best teams lead and forge ahead with new innovations where TW was always trying to find the best tactical and structural team model and change his list into that. If he had of followed his team mates adaptive approach in Eade, he would have realized that it is not one size fits all and changed his game plan to suit his list and young players.
I just hope Hardwick learns from Terry's mistakes and realizes that while it is sensible to use the best offensive and defensive strategies from other teams, ultimately you need to find what works best for you and you players.
So I think TW was a good student of the game, just not a good teacher.
Stripes
Now Stripes.
tell you this.
Terry had little idea and was way to set in his ways.
He objected to people challenging him , thus I was shown the door,
I laugh my head off when you say Terry knew everyones game plan, he thought he did, HE DIDNT
He had little idea and when we would be getting beaten early in a game, he had no plan B ,Plan A was gone and out the door
Only option was to ""get big Ricky behind the ball and stop the bleeding "" ( Richo ).
FACT
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He objected to people challenging him , thus I was shown the door,
Took you a while but you finally admit it :lol
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What I'm trying to say here MM is that is knew everyone else's game plan inside and out and knew how it worked and how to counter it...
Thoughtful post but that statement's pretty funny Stripes.
You credit Wallet way too much for a couple of gimmicky counter punch wins.
Wallet was tactically out coached by his peers on too many occasions that I care to mention because his fundamental thought processes on what it takes to be a top team were completely wrong.
Good student? I think not.
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Wallace tactical ;D last night l spat coke over my screen from laughing & tonight after reading that Wallace was great tactical & good student l fell like spewing.
His the worst coach Richmond ever had FACT. his a big mouth going nowhere but downhill.
The fact about Richmond is we cant get any worse & the future under Hardwick can only get better.
Listening to Leatherskins comments on radio about Richmond is the biggest crock of poo l heard in football.
How that prick can still face the football world & beleives his own spin & what people say behind his back, its time some of his co commentators got some balls & told this bloke where his really at.
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He objected to people challenging him , thus I was shown the door,
Took you a while but you finally admit it :lol
* thought you were on holidays?
* At least i had the interests of the RFC ,thus I stood up him..
* Other staff who challenged him have moved on and to bigger and better things,
* and whats the point of a coach have yes men surrounding him, that was Wallaces problem.
Funny he gave Dave Wheadon the flick and Dave has become the ""silent " brains behind Bomber Thompson at Geelong.
Secret of coaching is this, surround yourself with the best possible people, not friends.
Geelong is the perfect example. They got Cook, Balme, Wheadon, Dr Chris Bradshaw, Duncan Kellway etc etc.
We in the past have had Wayne Johnstone ::) Monkhurst :chuck David King :ROTFL , Brian Royal,( nice bloke , NO IDEA )
and lets dont mention our club doctor ( dr death) who continually sent injured players back on the ground. Ask Foley what he thinks ;)
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Wallace tactical ;D last night l spat coke over my screen from laughing & tonight after reading that Wallace was great tactical & good student l fell like spewing.
His the worst coach Richmond ever had FACT. his a big mouth going nowhere but downhill.
The fact about Richmond is we cant get any worse & the future under Hardwick can only get better.
Listening to Leatherskins comments on radio about Richmond is the biggest crock of poo l heard in football.
How that prick can still face the football world & beleives his own spin & what people say behind his back, its time some of his co commentators got some balls & told this bloke where his really at.
not only is Spud a better coach and person, but Hardwick is also.
if this was a Hardwick vrs Wallace thread id say Hardwick is so far in front its not funny.
Wallace at this stage had just recruited Mark Graham and Trent Knobel with the sensational 2004 draft to follow..and that was only his first year..
but who am i to judge?
I must remind myself that leather face is a great teacher of AFL Football. A fountain of knowledge our friend was
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Stripes you mention Spud had the runs on the board with a premiership? When? Winning Bungaree Under 12's does not count. Unless you are mentioning his defensive role at Hawthorn last year? Anyway I think they are both duds. I think you present a good argument but in this case as others mentioned Wallace was inept. :thumbsup
Here's another blurb for a movie. Perhaps someone could do picture for this.
Two lovers joined in an illicit romance of failure and perenial underachieving. No matter what they did failure was the option and the only option. One bumbled his way from cherry ripes and sticking fat while the other was as brown as a sultana and as wrinkly as my grandma talking himself up and loving the sound of his own voice. Together they formed a legacy no RFC supprter would ever forget in a hurry. In the mould of Mickey Rourke and Kim Basinger we present this steamy love fest 9 and a half years.
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:sleep :sleep :sleep
that post was about as exciting as listening to one of Terry's post game speeches.
"good student of the game"....BANG!!! there it is ladies and gentleman the comment of 2009
daniel, you seem like you are taking this personally. I was only pointing out the differences I believe their is between Wallace and Spud, not attacking you directly. It is widely believed that Wallace has a good knowledge of football in general and tactics is one of his strengths. Now you obviously disagree but my opinion of TW is exactly that, my opinion, and I can only form that, like you have, on observations and evidence.
My statement that I felt that Wallace was 'a good student of the game' is not necessarily a positive one. If you read further in the post I followed that comment by saying that he was not able to educate his players with the same knowledge or direct them correctly in Tactics that they could execute on the field.
TW was a poor coach because regardless of his own knowledge and footy smarts he was unable to pass them onto his players. He tried to use other teams tactics and game plan and make it fit our list which just did not work. This is why he failed as a coach.
I'm not being complimentary to him here. Perhaps if I swore a bit and threw a few more insults into my posts people may understand this a bit more.
Stripes
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Spud has the runs on the board with a premiership under his belt
He has what???
Whoops! :-[ What I meant to say was a preliminary final under his belt. Sorry about the confusion.
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i understand Stripes!
remember everyone, it is an opinion!
:)
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Now Stripes.
tell you this.
Terry had little idea and was way to set in his ways.
He objected to people challenging him , thus I was shown the door,
I laugh my head off when you say Terry knew everyones game plan, he thought he did, HE DIDNT
He had little idea and when we would be getting beaten early in a game, he had no plan B ,Plan A was gone and out the door
Only option was to ""get big Ricky behind the ball and stop the bleeding "" ( Richo ).
FACT
You have the inside knowledge that I don't Jack. Perhaps you are correct, he may have appeared to know every teams game plan more than what was actual reality but regardless I just think he didn't know how to teach the kids on our list how to play in a way that firstly worked with their strengths. He always seemed to be looking at what other teams were doing and trying to get our players to do the same. He never seemed to have an original idea himself and by the sounds of it Jack, was insecure to boot.
He had me fooled for a long time and bought his vision hook line and sinker. His disloyalty was the last straw for me.
Stripes
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What I'm trying to say here MM is that is knew everyone else's game plan inside and out and knew how it worked and how to counter it...
Thoughtful post but that statement's pretty funny Stripes.
You credit Wallet way too much for a couple of gimmicky counter punch wins.
Wallet was tactically out coached by his peers on too many occasions that I care to mention because his fundamental thought processes on what it takes to be a top team were completely wrong.
Good student? I think not.
Evidence shows that you are correct MM, he was out coached on many the occasion and his understanding of what constitutes a winning team was a long way off the money. In retrospect I think he had a few good tactical wins but overall he didn't know how to create a concrete game plan that his players could use week, week out to win games. He changed far too much and the players just couldn't keep up.
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i understand Stripes!
remember everyone, it is an opinion!
:)
I don't discredit anyone's comments or opinions on these boards even if they don't match my own. Everyone who writes I here is a passionate Tigers Supporters so how can you not respect them for that?
Thanks just my opinion of course. ;)
Stripes
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I thought that this was a juicy thread Stripes.Well done.
A pleasant change from all the trade week and National draft talk.
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Spud has the runs on the board with a premiership under his belt
He has what???
Whoops! :-[ What I meant to say was a preliminary final under his belt. Sorry about the confusion.
However Wallace got the Dogs playing quite a bit of finals football, I guess the question is who was the better coach, or who was the better Richmond coach
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It is widely believed that Wallace has a good knowledge of football in general and tactics is one of his strengths.
Please Striper you're killing me. :lol
Evidence shows that you are correct MM, he was out coached on many the occasion and his understanding of what constitutes a winning team was a long way off the money. In retrospect I think he had a few good tactical wins but overall he didn't know how to create a concrete game plan that his players could use week, week out to win games. He changed far too much and the players just couldn't keep up.
It's all good Striper.
No shame in being fooled by the watch salesman. I think Terry's pulled the wool over plenty of eyes over his tenure in footy.
I had cottoned onto him quite some time ago but even still deep down I was hoping that this year he would soundly quash my by then significant doubts.
His ego far outweighed his abilities and likely always will but I think he'll find things tougher from here on.
Great thread btw. Keep up the good posting. :thumbsup
In the mould of Mickey Rourke and Kim Basinger we present this steamy love fest 9 and a half years.
:lol :lol
Now that is truly gold Tuck. Only problem is it's been more like a horror fest than a romance.
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Almost a NIL ALL scoreline :sleep
Spud
* Totally decimated a reasonable list after living off the final remnants of the 1995 core and topping it up with quick fix rubbish.
* Kept using Plan A even 3 years after it had stopped working.
* Bored everyone to death that our membership fell by 5,000
* Was surrounded by people both above and below him at the Club who had no idea about managing an AFL footy department and playing list.
Plough
* Clayton's rebuild - the rebuild you have when you can't make up your mind if you're rebuilding or not.
* Poor teacher.
* Kept changing the gameplan and where everyone played even in the few situations where things actually started to come together. Didn't present a big picture to the playing group and lost them.
* Was surrounded by people both above and below him at the Club who had no idea about managing an AFL footy department and playing list.
I'd only give it to Plough because the Club is in better shape than it was in 2004 (not much of a compliment) and despite doing a quarter of a job we still have some semblance of a base of youth to build upon and re-educate. When Spud left we had virtually no youth and had to start from scratch.
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So what did Wallace do RIGHT over at the Doggies that brought him so much success there yet he failed here?
Good summary MT
Stripes
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So what did Wallace do RIGHT over at the Doggies that brought him so much success there yet he failed here?
Maybe he simply inherited a good list?
His results got worse at the Bullies with every passing year before his eventual departure.
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You maybe right Mr Magic in that Terry inherited a good list at the Western Bulldogs....but to his credit he was good enough to take them to the finals four years in a row.(whats that like ?)
Robert Walls by comparison inherited a strong Richmond list back in 1996 and seriously under achieved.
I hated Terry's Bulldogs.....but you had to respect them.They were the "school yard bullies" of the competition.
My memories of the Bulldogs circa 1997-2000 were of a team that was very physical (tough) but also possessed a strong running game with a high skill level.
I had hoped that Terry would bring all these attributes to Richmond....even fantasised that in time we would become the hated school yard bullies of the competition......boy was I wrong.
After almost 5 years of Terry... Richmond was still as "soft as butter" and the team contains too many players with average/poor skills.
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You maybe right Mr Magic in that Terry inherited a good list at the Western Bulldogs....but to his credit he was good enough to take them to the finals four years in a row.(whats that like ?)
Robert Walls by comparison inherited a strong Richmond list back in 1996 and seriously under achieved.
I hated Terry's Bulldogs.....but you had to respect them.They were the "school yard bullies" of the competition.
My memories of the Bulldogs circa 1997-2000 were of a team that was very physical (tough) but also possessed a strong running game with a high skill level.
I had hoped that Terry would bring all these attributes to Richmond....even fantasised that in time we would become the hated school yard bullies of the competition......boy was I wrong.
After almost 5 years of Terry... Richmond was still as "soft as butter" and the team contains too many players with average/poor skills.
Couldn't have said it better myself Mat. And like Stripes, I swallowed the Wallace spin - hook, line and sinker. To me he had the runs on the board at the Bulldogs and if he produced the same 'junkyard dog' attitude with our team then I was very confident we were on the right track. Chalk another one up to life and it's curve balls. :-[
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You maybe right Mr Magic in that Terry inherited a good list at the Western Bulldogs....but to his credit he was good enough to take them to the finals four years in a row.(whats that like ?)
Robert Walls by comparison inherited a strong Richmond list back in 1996 and seriously under achieved.
I hated Terry's Bulldogs.....but you had to respect them.They were the "school yard bullies" of the competition.
My memories of the Bulldogs circa 1997-2000 were of a team that was very physical (tough) but also possessed a strong running game with a high skill level.
I had hoped that Terry would bring all these attributes to Richmond....even fantasised that in time we would become the hated school yard bullies of the competition......boy was I wrong.
After almost 5 years of Terry... Richmond was still as "soft as butter" and the team contains too many players with average/poor skills.
Couldn't have said it better myself Mat. And like Stripes, I swallowed the Wallace spin - hook, line and sinker. To me he had the runs on the board at the Bulldogs and if he produced the same 'junkyard dog' attitude with our team then I was very confident we were on the right track. Chalk another one up to life and it's curve balls. :-[
Maybe the fight came from the players rather than the coach. Maybe the 'bullying' was part of the Dogs team and Terry just absorbed that as part of the way the team played rather than what was directed by him as part of his game plan. Perhaps given the Tigers lack of size and development this sort of fight was beyond them or perhaps I am making excuses...
Was Terry's dogs remembered for their 1% and tackling because that was certainly not a priority for Terry's Tigers. Did Spud encourage the defensive elements to the teams game plan? Was tackling, shepherding etc a priority for Spud?
Stripes
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Look l will put it to everyone plain & simple
Wallace came to Richmond saying our skills were pathetic & that we would go quickly, long & direct & kick 16 goals as a target which should win most games.
He said the supporters should buy a membership cause times at Richmond were going to be better times, off course all us here have continued to support long before our last premiership. he said there would be no-more ugly football
Well he turned over nearly all the list & we had the softest team in the league with the most pathetic skills & most pathetic gameplan at the end of his term
He has no excuses what so ever. He had drafted the best youngsters & had the right mix of experience but couldnot get the playing group to play his basketcase style
He made some of the worst coaches decisions l seen at Richmond & watched his staff make poor decisions which he didnot overule.
He left us with a list of skinny dum skill-less players that play the most ugly football in the league that you would prefer to watch the halftime little league players in hope they get more time on the ground because you didnot want to see Richmond after 1/2 time come out.
This year l reckon l seen the weakest team getting around that has no guts & no fight & players would watch his team-mate get punched around & watch just like Joel Bowden did in his last game which was gutless & Nathan Brown just about holding his hand.
All the hard stuff was left to players like Kingy & Hislop who were prepared to backup thier team-mates while the Captain Newman showed no guts & leadership.
Others had given up & were just happy playing football at any level reguardless
All this type of football stems from the person who is coaching you & that is one Terry Wallace & Jade Rawlings along with the assistant coaches who was teaching us how to become basketball players & they couldnot even get that right
Yes l will move on when Hardwick takes over & chops the heads off those who play like pee ants & dont do thier bit for the team.
l will support Hardwick to make the right decisions for the club & help improve the level of football that we have been forced to watch over the last 5 years.
Even if we dont win games, as long as they play football like league footballers, than l have no gripe & the club moves forwards to playing finals football & not just being a team that makes up the 8 but is unpredictable to beat anyone on thier day.
How much we all like to see a Richmond side that can play football like they did against Geelong early this season kicking 8 goals against a premiership side in one quarter & nearly causing a upset but was dogged by umpiring decisions we can only hope
As for Wallace he was always a dud ;D
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Look l will put it to everyone plain & simple
Wallace came to Richmond saying our skills were pathetic & that we would go quickly, long & direct & kick 16 goals as a target which should win most games.
He said the supporters should buy a membership cause times at Richmond were going to be better times, off course all us here have continued to support long before our last premiership. he said there would be no-more ugly football
Well he turned over nearly all the list & we had the softest team in the league with the most pathetic skills & most pathetic gameplan at the end of his term
He has no excuses what so ever. He had drafted the best youngsters & had the right mix of experience but couldnot get the playing group to play his basketcase style
He made some of the worst coaches decisions l seen at Richmond & watched his staff make poor decisions which he didnot overule.
He left us with a list of skinny dum skill-less players that play the most ugly football in the league that you would prefer to watch the halftime little league players in hope they get more time on the ground because you didnot want to see Richmond after 1/2 time come out.
This year l reckon l seen the weakest team getting around that has no guts & no fight & players would watch his team-mate get punched around & watch just like Joel Bowden did in his last game which was gutless & Nathan Brown just about holding his hand.
All the hard stuff was left to players like Kingy & Hislop who were prepared to backup thier team-mates while the Captain Newman showed no guts & leadership.
Others had given up & were just happy playing football at any level reguardless
All this type of football stems from the person who is coaching you & that is one Terry Wallace & Jade Rawlings along with the assistant coaches who was teaching us how to become basketball players & they couldnot even get that right
Yes l will move on when Hardwick takes over & chops the heads off those who play like pee ants & dont do thier bit for the team.
l will support Hardwick to make the right decisions for the club & help improve the level of football that we have been forced to watch over the last 5 years.
Even if we dont win games, as long as they play football like league footballers, than l have no gripe & the club moves forwards to playing finals football & not just being a team that makes up the 8 but is unpredictable to beat anyone on thier day.
How much we all like to see a Richmond side that can play football like they did against Geelong early this season kicking 8 goals against a premiership side in one quarter & nearly causing a upset but was dogged by umpiring decisions we can only hope
As for Wallace he was always a dud ;D
Totally agree
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Look l will put it to everyone plain & simple
Wallace came to Richmond saying our skills were pathetic & that we would go quickly, long & direct & kick 16 goals as a target which should win most games.
He said the supporters should buy a membership cause times at Richmond were going to be better times, off course all us here have continued to support long before our last premiership. he said there would be no-more ugly football
Well he turned over nearly all the list & we had the softest team in the league with the most pathetic skills & most pathetic gameplan at the end of his term
He has no excuses what so ever. He had drafted the best youngsters & had the right mix of experience but couldnot get the playing group to play his basketcase style
He made some of the worst coaches decisions l seen at Richmond & watched his staff make poor decisions which he didnot overule.
He left us with a list of skinny dum skill-less players that play the most ugly football in the league that you would prefer to watch the halftime little league players in hope they get more time on the ground because you didnot want to see Richmond after 1/2 time come out.
This year l reckon l seen the weakest team getting around that has no guts & no fight & players would watch his team-mate get punched around & watch just like Joel Bowden did in his last game which was gutless & Nathan Brown just about holding his hand.
All the hard stuff was left to players like Kingy & Hislop who were prepared to backup thier team-mates while the Captain Newman showed no guts & leadership.
Others had given up & were just happy playing football at any level reguardless
All this type of football stems from the person who is coaching you & that is one Terry Wallace & Jade Rawlings along with the assistant coaches who was teaching us how to become basketball players & they couldnot even get that right
Yes l will move on when Hardwick takes over & chops the heads off those who play like pee ants & dont do thier bit for the team.
l will support Hardwick to make the right decisions for the club & help improve the level of football that we have been forced to watch over the last 5 years.
Even if we dont win games, as long as they play football like league footballers, than l have no gripe & the club moves forwards to playing finals football & not just being a team that makes up the 8 but is unpredictable to beat anyone on thier day.
How much we all like to see a Richmond side that can play football like they did against Geelong early this season kicking 8 goals against a premiership side in one quarter & nearly causing a upset but was dogged by umpiring decisions we can only hope
As for Wallace he was always a dud ;D
Great Post.
To stripes and co good to see you admit that TW had you fooled. Personally he fooled me in his first year, but in my eyes he was finished as a senior coach after the Geelong thrashing.
Even up until last year some on here refused to listen to reason, and some were still were hopefull he would continue on because it was all part of his master 5 year plan.
I think the key is in recruitment and development. Leatherface biggest mistake was to misjudge this list after his first year. That 5 year plan has set us back a further 3-5 years due to bad recruiting decisions and not hiring the best people to surround him, rather hacks like Monkhurst, McCrae and Royal.
But like Spud we move on but one thing i will never forget as long as im alive and well, is the disloyalty shown by him by squeeling to his media mates amongst other things which he leaked.
I get the feeling he knew his papers were stamped so by feeding the media he would prepare for a job with his "friends" once he gets sacked.
The fact that he would constantly refer to the Buldogs list in his defence for the rabble he created with ours, was the single most pathetic thing i have ever heard come out of any ex coach's mouth.
I think we all agree, Hardwick is on the right track by keeping all those picks and resisting the temptation to get involved in trade week
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But like Spud we move on but one thing i will never forget as long as im alive and well, is the disloyalty shown by him by squeeling to his media mates amongst other things which he leaked.
I get the feeling he knew his papers were stamped so by feeding the media he would prepare for a job with his "friends" once he gets sacked.
The fact that he would constantly refer to the Buldogs list in his defence for the rabble he created with ours, was the single most pathetic thing i have ever heard come out of any ex coach's mouth.
I think we all agree, Hardwick is on the right track by keeping all those picks and resisting the temptation to get involved in trade week
This is the part that completely lost me as well. The minute he showed disloyalty to our great club absolved me of all feelings of loyalty to him. Those comments finally revealed to me how self serving and two faced he was - a fact I refused to want to believe when they were brought up on these boards in the past. In addition, the way TW spent the majority of his final press conference apologizing to the Western Bulldogs and then promoting himself to get a new future job rather than speak about the great club that gave him an opportunity to lead it made me sick.
I just hope Hardwick can bring a hard, defensive, team-first and, most of all, honest demands to the club that we have lacked for so long. I don't think coaches should be brutal honest to the media but they don't need to spin false hope either.
Stripes
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When Spud left we had virtually no youth and had to start from scratch.
Thats not true. Terry dropped pretty much all of the 17 and 18 year olds from the club in his first year. That is why we had an age gap. We had 8-12 young players that Wallace thought had no skill and dropped.
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When Spud left we had virtually no youth and had to start from scratch.
Thats not true. Terry dropped pretty much all of the 17 and 18 year olds from the club in his first year. That is why we had an age gap. We had 8-12 young players that Wallace thought had no skill and dropped.
Can you remember who they were tdyen? Where you surprised at the time by any of their departures?
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But like Spud we move on but one thing i will never forget as long as im alive and well, is the disloyalty shown by him by squeeling to his media mates amongst other things which he leaked.
I get the feeling he knew his papers were stamped so by feeding the media he would prepare for a job with his "friends" once he gets sacked.
The fact that he would constantly refer to the Buldogs list in his defence for the rabble he created with ours, was the single most pathetic thing i have ever heard come out of any ex coach's mouth.
I think we all agree, Hardwick is on the right track by keeping all those picks and resisting the temptation to get involved in trade week
This is the part that completely lost me as well. The minute he showed disloyalty to our great club absolved me of all feelings of loyalty to him. Those comments finally revealed to me how self serving and two faced he was - a fact I refused to want to believe when they were brought up on these boards in the past. In addition, the way TW spent the majority of his final press conference apologizing to the Western Bulldogs and then promoting himself to get a new future job rather than speak about the great club that gave him an opportunity to lead it made me sick.
I just hope Hardwick can bring a hard, defensive, team-first and, most of all, honest demands to the club that we have lacked for so long. I don't think coaches should be brutal honest to the media but they don't need to spin false hope either.
Stripes
I'm surprised a man of your informative and intersesting posts took that long to jump off- considering we were 4 and a half years into his coaching stint and he had been sacked, and still this was the thing that finally changed your opinion on him, his comments..... Strange!
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When Spud left we had virtually no youth and had to start from scratch.
Thats not true. Terry dropped pretty much all of the 17 and 18 year olds from the club in his first year. That is why we had an age gap. We had 8-12 young players that Wallace thought had no skill and dropped.
Can you remember who they were tdyen? Where you surprised at the time by any of their departures?
No I can't, but I was surprised at the time, pretty much none of them got a chance to actually prove they could make it at AFL level. Few players really show much in their first two years. It was a bit of a "He's a Frawley era player get rid of him" attitude. Imagine if Paul Roos had taken that attitude at Sydney!
I think Brent Hartigan was one of the few who got kept on for a few seasons.
Wallace had his good points and bad points like anyone.
He ran the media side of footy very well, as well as any coach has. He did understand what was going on on the ground better than Spud.
He also coached average, developed players poorly and probably didn't pick (if he had any influence on this) good medical and fitness people.
And there is the draft picks, but the record here I think has equally as much to do with poor player development as poor selections.
rats my wife has busted me on the richmond boards, gotta go! :)
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::) does your wife wear the pants & boots in your house :rollin
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No I can't, but I was surprised at the time, pretty much none of them got a chance to actually prove they could make it at AFL level. Few players really show much in their first two years. It was a bit of a "He's a Frawley era player get rid of him" attitude. Imagine if Paul Roos had taken that attitude at Sydney!
Not a fair comparison with Roos. He took over a club that had finished 1st (runners up), 6th, 3rd (out in semis), 8th, 10th and 7th - missed the finals once in 6 years including a grand final. He had been an assistant with the list he took over, he already had the nucleus of the side that eventually won the premiership and had no need to clean out. Wallace most definitely had a need and not one of his discards succeeded elsewhere.
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I'm surprised a man of your informative and intersesting posts took that long to jump off- considering we were 4 and a half years into his coaching stint and he had been sacked, and still this was the thing that finally changed your opinion on him, his comments..... Strange!
I was far from happy with the way the club was going by the time he left and fell off the 'complete belief and support' bandwagon years earlier but I still hoped that the players he had had under his tutorage for 5 years would all start to come of age and he could finally use his 'tactical nous' to secure our first finals berth. I couldn't stand the style we were playing for the last 4 years but felt perhaps this would be addressed where it never was.
All is all I'm a loyal supporter and I had hoped TW would bring our club the success I had seen him deliver to the Dogs. I still do not understand how he could bring one style of play in one club and achieve such success with it yet bring a completely different style to our club and achieve only failure. My only explanation is that he was not responsible for the defensive style of the dogs but rather the players themselves were.
I will give Hardwick the same loyalty and support now but I must say I am now much more critical and jaded towards our club and coaches now that I was. Thanks Terry. >:(
What I still do believe is that TW was correct with our list. He stated (stupidly to the media) that we our currently crop of young players would take 7 years before we saw sustained finals success from their inception. This would indicate 2011 is the year we will begin our finals stint which corresponds to our top tier youth reaching the 21 - 25 age bracket.
I'm hoping at least one thing that came from his mouth was actually truthful and correct :pray
So I guess my hope and belief in the man is strange in retrospect but I always hope for the best and believe in the future. Make's me a happier person I feel overall. I'm a victim of my own unwavering loyalty to the things I love and the Tigers fall into that category.
Stripes
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I'm surprised a man of your informative and intersesting posts took that long to jump off- considering we were 4 and a half years into his coaching stint and he had been sacked, and still this was the thing that finally changed your opinion on him, his comments..... Strange!
I was far from happy with the way the club was going by the time he left and fell off the 'complete belief and support' bandwagon years earlier but I still hoped that the players he had had under his tutorage for 5 years would all start to come of age and he could finally use his 'tactical nous' to secure our first finals berth. I couldn't stand the style we were playing for the last 4 years but felt perhaps this would be addressed where it never was.
All is all I'm a loyal supporter and I had hoped TW would bring our club the success I had seen him deliver to the Dogs. I still do not understand how he could bring one style of play in one club and achieve such success with it yet bring a completely different style to our club and achieve only failure. My only explanation is that he was not responsible for the defensive style of the dogs but rather the players themselves were.
I will give Hardwick the same loyalty and support now but I must say I am now much more critical and jaded towards our club and coaches now that I was. Thanks Terry. >:(
What I still do believe is that TW was correct with our list. He stated (stupidly to the media) that we our currently crop of young players would take 7 years before we saw sustained finals success from their inception. This would indicate 2011 is the year we will begin our finals stint which corresponds to our top tier youth reaching the 21 - 25 age bracket.
I'm hoping at least one thing that came from his mouth was actually truthful and correct :pray
So I guess my hope and belief in the man is strange in retrospect but I always hope for the best and believe in the future. Make's me a happier person I feel overall. I'm a victim of my own unwavering loyalty to the things I love and the Tigers fall into that category.
Stripes
x 2.
You couldn't have summed me up more accurately Stripes. Loyalty beyond reason has cost me dearly a few times in life but it's a trait I also hold up high - a positive virtue you can't buy, sell or inherit - it comes from deep within.
Yep, we all saw the cracks appearing a long time before some of us finally jumped (last rats off the ship almost) but given that time again I would still make the same mistakes because that's just who I am. The movie "Meet The Fokkers" springs to mind here - if you are in my 'Circle of Trust' then it is very very hard to hop out - and everything RFC is squarely in the middle of my circle.
:gotigers
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Great Post.
To stripes and co good to see you admit that TW had you fooled. Personally he fooled me in his first year, but in my eyes he was finished as a senior coach after the Geelong thrashing.
I'm surprised a man of your informative and intersesting posts took that long to jump off- considering we were 4 and a half years into his coaching stint and he had been sacked, and still this was the thing that finally changed your opinion on him, his comments..... Strange!
Stripes
read post above..
it would pay to read my posts but i guess it may be hard when you have an IQ of 10.
took me 4 and a half years- biggest laugh i have had all year, thanks!!
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Great Post.
To stripes and co good to see you admit that TW had you fooled. Personally he fooled me in his first year, but in my eyes he was finished as a senior coach after the Geelong thrashing.
I'm surprised a man of your informative and intersesting posts took that long to jump off- considering we were 4 and a half years into his coaching stint and he had been sacked, and still this was the thing that finally changed your opinion on him, his comments..... Strange!
Stripes
read post above..
it would pay to read my posts but i guess it may be hard when you have an IQ of 10.
took me 4 and a half years- biggest laugh i have had all year, thanks!!
Was that comment directed at me daniel?
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Great Post.
To stripes and co good to see you admit that TW had you fooled. Personally he fooled me in his first year, but in my eyes he was finished as a senior coach after the Geelong thrashing.
I'm surprised a man of your informative and intersesting posts took that long to jump off- considering we were 4 and a half years into his coaching stint and he had been sacked, and still this was the thing that finally changed your opinion on him, his comments..... Strange!
Stripes
read post above..
it would pay to read my posts but i guess it may be hard when you have an IQ of 10.
took me 4 and a half years- biggest laugh i have had all year, thanks!!
Was that comment directed at me daniel?
Or me?... I was replying to Stripes.
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Great Post.
To stripes and co good to see you admit that TW had you fooled. Personally he fooled me in his first year, but in my eyes he was finished as a senior coach after the Geelong thrashing.
I'm surprised a man of your informative and intersesting posts took that long to jump off- considering we were 4 and a half years into his coaching stint and he had been sacked, and still this was the thing that finally changed your opinion on him, his comments..... Strange!
Stripes
read post above..
it would pay to read my posts but i guess it may be hard when you have an IQ of 10.
took me 4 and a half years- biggest laugh i have had all year, thanks!!
Was that comment directed at me daniel?
Or me?... I was replying to Stripes.
I think you may have mixed up big tone and my posts daniel. Big tone was expressing his disbelief that it took me 4 and a half years before I fully woke up to TW but you have big tones quote with my name underneath so this is why we are a little confused.
Either way daniel - glad you are having a good laugh. It's good for the soul they say.
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Great Post.
To stripes and co good to see you admit that TW had you fooled. Personally he fooled me in his first year, but in my eyes he was finished as a senior coach after the Geelong thrashing.
I'm surprised a man of your informative and intersesting posts took that long to jump off- considering we were 4 and a half years into his coaching stint and he had been sacked, and still this was the thing that finally changed your opinion on him, his comments..... Strange!
Stripes
read post above..
it would pay to read my posts but i guess it may be hard when you have an IQ of 10.
took me 4 and a half years- biggest laugh i have had all year, thanks!!
Was that comment directed at me daniel?
Or me?... I was replying to Stripes.
my apologies. Terry Wallet threads always get my blood boiling.
great thread.
first time we all agree for a change.
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When Spud left we had virtually no youth and had to start from scratch.
Thats not true. Terry dropped pretty much all of the 17 and 18 year olds from the club in his first year. That is why we had an age gap. We had 8-12 young players that Wallace thought had no skill and dropped.
Can you remember who they were tdyen? Where you surprised at the time by any of their departures?
No I can't, but I was surprised at the time, pretty much none of them got a chance to actually prove they could make it at AFL level. Few players really show much in their first two years. It was a bit of a "He's a Frawley era player get rid of him" attitude. Imagine if Paul Roos had taken that attitude at Sydney!
I think Brent Hartigan was one of the few who got kept on for a few seasons.
Wallace had his good points and bad points like anyone.
He ran the media side of footy very well, as well as any coach has. He did understand what was going on on the ground better than Spud.
He also coached average, developed players poorly and probably didn't pick (if he had any influence on this) good medical and fitness people.
And there is the draft picks, but the record here I think has equally as much to do with poor player development as poor selections.
rats my wife has busted me on the richmond boards, gotta go! :)
Below is our list at the end of Spud's reign. The red names are those who either retired or were offloaded when Wallace arrived.
Of the 23 and unders inherited only Pettifer and Schulz were top 20 picks :help. Cogs, Rodan and the speculative Gilmour were the only others inside pick 40. This from a team that missed the finals in 4 of Spud's 5 years and had 14 top 40 picks. The rest were mostly post-pick 50 draft picks. Spud left us with hardly no quality youngsters coming through. At best we got a few solid AFL footballers. Wallace kept all those U22 on. The problem with Plough is after his first draft/trade period he didn't allow us to bottom out and turnover the list quickly so we stagnated in no-man's land (once again). For example Terry while commentating one of our games in 2004 openly said he didn't believe Schulz was up to it yet Schulz in the end out-survived Wallace at Punt Road 5 years later ???.
32: Campbell (vet)
31. D.Kellaway (vet), Rogers
30: Stafford
29: A.Kellaway, Richardson
28: Gaspar, Marsh
27: Blumfield, Chaffey
26: Brown, Bowden, Fleming, Fletcher, Houlihan, Johnson
25: Hilton, Tivendale
24: Hall, Ottens
23: Fiora, Morrison, Nicholls, Tuck, Dragicevic#
22: Coughlan, Hyde, Newman, Pettifer, Weller, Zantuck
21: Krakouer, Rodan
20: Moore#
19: Hartigan, Roach, Schulz, Foley#
18: Archibald, Gilmour, Jackson, Raines
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Great post MT. Frawley really did leave us with nothing to build on at all. It is ironic that of those still remaining from TW's arrival there is only Richo, Tuck (who he was going to delist), Newman and Jackson. The only other two still here is two rookies - Moore and Foley. Perhaps our rookies were chosen or the responsibility of someone other than Miller?
Wallace made a hell of a lot of bad decisions in his tenure and I think his first one was to take over from Spud to come to Tigerland when the Hawks were waiting. :rollin
Stripes
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Key figures at Hawthorn didnot want Wallace coaching after his presentation so he was never going to coach them
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Key figures at Hawthorn didnot want Wallace coaching after his presentation so he was never going to coach them
He was offered the job though Tigermonk and it was only when he declined the position that people like Dermie began to make rumbling like you just mentioned. From all reports he had the Hawks position on a platter if he wanted it. In fact the Hawks got rid of their previous coach just so they had time to have a crack at the great sun tanned one. :o
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from what l was told that Dunstall crossed him off the list after his last interview cause he was asking too much money & the hawks refused him
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When Spud left we had virtually no youth and had to start from scratch.
Thats not true. Terry dropped pretty much all of the 17 and 18 year olds from the club in his first year. That is why we had an age gap. We had 8-12 young players that Wallace thought had no skill and dropped.
Can you remember who they were tdyen? Where you surprised at the time by any of their departures?
No I can't, but I was surprised at the time, pretty much none of them got a chance to actually prove they could make it at AFL level. Few players really show much in their first two years. It was a bit of a "He's a Frawley era player get rid of him" attitude. Imagine if Paul Roos had taken that attitude at Sydney!
I think Brent Hartigan was one of the few who got kept on for a few seasons.
Wallace had his good points and bad points like anyone.
He ran the media side of footy very well, as well as any coach has. He did understand what was going on on the ground better than Spud.
He also coached average, developed players poorly and probably didn't pick (if he had any influence on this) good medical and fitness people.
And there is the draft picks, but the record here I think has equally as much to do with poor player development as poor selections.
rats my wife has busted me on the richmond boards, gotta go! :)
Below is our list at the end of Spud's reign. The red names are those who either retired or were offloaded when Wallace arrived.
Of the 23 and unders inherited only Pettifer and Schulz were top 20 picks :help. Cogs, Rodan and the speculative Gilmour were the only others inside pick 40. This from a team that missed the finals in 4 of Spud's 5 years and had 14 top 40 picks. The rest were mostly post-pick 50 draft picks. Spud left us with hardly no quality youngsters coming through. At best we got a few solid AFL footballers. Wallace kept all those U22 on. The problem with Plough is after his first draft/trade period he didn't allow us to bottom out and turnover the list quickly so we stagnated in no-man's land (once again). For example Terry while commentating one of our games in 2004 openly said he didn't believe Schulz was up to it yet Schulz in the end out-survived Wallace at Punt Road 5 years later ???.
32: Campbell (vet)
31. D.Kellaway (vet), Rogers
30: Stafford
29: A.Kellaway, Richardson
28: Gaspar, Marsh
27: Blumfield, Chaffey
26: Brown, Bowden, Fleming, Fletcher, Houlihan, Johnson
25: Hilton, Tivendale
24: Hall, Ottens
23: Fiora, Morrison, Nicholls, Tuck, Dragicevic#
22: Coughlan, Hyde, Newman, Pettifer, Weller, Zantuck
21: Krakouer, Rodan
20: Moore#
19: Hartigan, Roach, Schulz, Foley#
18: Archibald, Gilmour, Jackson, Raines
Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!
We hve no leadership, are as soft as butter and our skills are the worse in the AFL.
TW is a flog of the highest order and has f#@k our club and put it back 5 years.
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Danny Frawley with Lids Cotchin & Tambling would have done better with them than Wallace IMOO
Also beleive our Backline in Thursfield, McGuane & others would have been better under the ex backman
That might be a bit naive of me but l truely beleive he was a better coach than Wallace considering Wallace previous experience & his big mouth
l never had faith in Wallace from day 1 because l knew his record with younger Bulldog players & his not well liked.
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While I can't agree that our list problems is completely Wallace's fault, he is responsible for who stays and how existing players are taught and developed. This is where I see TW's biggest crime to be. Our good players rarely reach their potential and how many gems have we actually groomed at club level. If TW said that Schulz was not up to standard BEFORE he even came to the club why has he outlasted him! Just a joke.
It took a psychiatrist to give Tambling the confidence to succeed....why didn't one of our coaches give him the feeling of security and belief every player needs years before so we could have seen him succeeding then? Why was Lids bulked up over preseason to play as a forward only to move to the midfield the same year. Why did TW have him try and avoid tags by moving to the backline/forwardline rather than learning to overcome them? Why was Cotch allowed to train to the extent he did is his second Preseason? And I could go on....inconsistency everywhere and no purposeful development.
Even the style of play TW tried to teach our young players over years will now have to be scrapped and Hardwick will have to start again with the now 23 etc year olds that have know nothing else. The run and receive game style with no defensive mindset is useless against team oriented sides which is another reason why we have failed on field so dramatically lately.
Hardwick should at least go back to basics with the side. Teach a defense first mentality where you shepherd and create space for your team mate. Where you create turnovers through physical pressure. TW created a team that, in the words of Grant Thomas, was a 'pleasure to play against'. Hardwick should bring back the mongrel in the club so we are loathed again.
Spud was even more clueless with no tactics or game plan other than kick it long to Richo! No wonder we never won a game unless Richo kick a bag. We must have been every defenders dream - predictable to the core!
We need a coach with a clue and I pray that Hardwick is that man! :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray
Stripes
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Good Post Stripes :thumbsup
l dont think Frawley ever had a full side to choose from after 2001 with some key injuries most years which resulted in bad years
when you started on some of Wallaces flaws l grabbed the seat for the workbench to sitdown for a long post ;D
lucky you stopped at l could go on :lol :thumbsup
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Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!
Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.
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Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!
Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.
So other than Lids and Cotch you don't believe there will be any players left after 5 years? We have 5 players left on the list from the Wallace era. I would suggest that we have more than that after 5 years...but we'll have to wait and see I guess.
Stripes
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So other than Lids and Cotch you don't believe there will be any players left after 5 years? We have 5 players left on the list from the Wallace era. I would suggest that we have more than that after 5 years...but we'll have to wait and see I guess.
Don't reckon there will be a lot in it but anyways I think list management is largely a separate argument to who is the better coach anyway.
Maybe we should have a Beck vs Miller/Cameron debate if we want to head down that path?
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Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!
Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.
It's in much better shape than many give credit for MM (IMHO). This same list was very very competitive for portions of many/most games this year and made some better sides look second rate for a quarter or two. Fitness, confidence and gameday preparation had a lot more to do with our dismal year than ability. I have a very strong belief that the change in coaching environment will 'appear' to work miracles but if you look through the veneer of perception you can see a lot of talent and potential...................................well, I can anyway. ;)
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Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!
Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.
It's in much better shape than many give credit for MM (IMHO). This same list was very very competitive for portions of many/most games this year and made some better sides look second rate for a quarter or two. Fitness, confidence and gameday preparation had a lot more to do with our dismal year than ability. I have a very strong belief that the change in coaching environment will 'appear' to work miracles but if you look through the veneer of perception you can see a lot of talent and potential...................................well, I can anyway. ;)
i think i have heard it all now.
yes your right about one thing we remainded competetive with the likes of Buldogs and the Pies for 1 quarter, and we only lost by what was it 80 points. Your point is what?? I dont give a stuff about quarters and halves, i care about winning and only winning.
Its not who we lost to, its how we lost. We finished all the games we lost with no leadership out there and all players head bowed into the ground. A captain who cannot motivate his players in any capacity. Players standing by watching their mates getting punched and wrestled and not doing anything is a direct result of a clear lack of leadership throuhg coach and captain.
In better shape? Maybe its the fact that we just delisted Schulz for next to nothing when we could have landed a 2nd rounder if Wallace didnt sunburn his eyes so he could see that ports offer should have been a no brainer
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If the players respect the coach and play for the coach it doesn't matter if they have a broken wrist or ankle they will go out and give it their all.
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Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!
Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.
From an inherited youth perspective it is "better". Not great and nowhere near what it should've been after Wallace's 5 long years but still better than what Frawley left us (it'd be hard to do any worse) which was just 5 players who would still be around 5 years later and it would've been just 4 if Tucky had been able to be traded. Frawley's youth should be making up our mid-age core now but how can you have a core with just 5 players ::).
The 23 and unders Frawley inherited - (I might have missed some lesser names and left out those delisted/traded when Spud arrived like McKee and Plapp)
23: Gaspar (114), Biddiscombe (38), James (40), Rombotis (46)
22: Chaffey (40), Holland (65)
21: Bowden (58), Tivendale (12), Torney (53)
20: Hilton (17), Ottens (34), Proctor (16), J.White (-)
19: Dragicevic (17), Hall (1)
Remember Spud also inherited the core remnants of 95 - Richo, Cambo, Knighter, Brodders, both Gales, Rogers, D.Kellaway and Daffy. He also inherited A.Kellaway and traded for Leon Cameron, Sziller and Clinton King. With hardly any injuries in 2001 we made the finals. 3 years later only Richo, Chubba and Cambo on his last legs remained of the oldies although we gained Sugar and Browny. A coach is only as good as his cattle. Spud decimated the cattle :help.
Frawley's 23 and unders whom Wallace inherited
23: Tuck (3), Fiora (78 ), Morrison (11), Nicholls (16), Dragicevic# (48 )
22: Newman (54), Coughlan (49), Hyde (30), Pettifer (37), Weller (7), Zantuck (68)
21: Krakouer (56), Rodan (60)
20: Moore# (9)
19: Foley# (-), Hartigan (19), Roach (8 ), Schulz (21)
18: Jackson (6), Archibald (-), Gilmour (-), Raines (1)
Wallace's 23 and unders whom Hardwick is inheriting
23: Jackson (69), Polo (52), Thomson (30), Thursfield (53), McGuane (54), Morton (50), Tambling (95)
22: Deledio (106), Graham (18 ), White (54), Nahas# (19)
21: Hislop (19), Collins (10), Connors (10), Edwards (47), Riewoldt (46)
20: Post (7), Rance (15)
19: Cotchin (25), Vickery (9), Browne# (1), Gilligan# (-)
Gone: Raines, Putt, Oakley-Nicholls, Pattison, Hughes, Gourdis#
The club itself rates 10-12 of the above (including 24 y.o. Foley I presume) as potential premiership players. We need at least that many to go on and form the mid-age core of the side by 2013.
Up to Hardwick and the recruiting dept. to add a second wave of rebuilding and aim for at least 25 potential premiership players on our list within his first contract.
Spud got us into this mess in the first place within 5 years :scream and Plough only did a quarter of a job in a whole 5 years trying and failing to get us out of it.
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I was bored and thought I'd throw this together for a bit of fun.
Click on the pic for a larger image
(http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc556/th_97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg) (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg)
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I was bored and thought I'd throw this together for a bit of fun.
Click on the pic for a larger image
(http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc556/th_97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg) (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg)
Scary tiga! Spud looks the real deal. :o Miller is the true villain IMO - had a huge influence on our list. :banghead
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I was bored and thought I'd throw this together for a bit of fun.
Click on the pic for a larger image
(http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc556/th_97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg) (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg)
Scary tiga! Spud looks the real deal. :o Miller is the true villain IMO - had a huge influence on our list. :banghead
Miller was only working part time as our only recruiter. Blame the resources, not just him, he couldn't be 10 places at once.
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I was bored and thought I'd throw this together for a bit of fun.
Click on the pic for a larger image
(http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc556/th_97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg) (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg)
Scary tiga! Spud looks the real deal. :o Miller is the true villain IMO - had a huge influence on our list. :banghead
Miller was only working part time as our only recruiter. Blame the resources, not just him, he couldn't be 10 places at once.
But in his arrogance and deluded self belief he thought he could!
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Lol Tiga. You've inspired me.
(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1944/dumbee.jpg)
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What a classic Magic!! :rollin Very funny indeed ;D
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I was bored and thought I'd throw this together for a bit of fun.
Click on the pic for a larger image
(http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc556/th_97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg) (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=97599_LethalCoaching_122_556lo.jpg)
Scary tiga! Spud looks the real deal. :o Miller is the true villain IMO - had a huge influence on our list. :banghead
Miller was only working part time as our only recruiter. Blame the resources, not just him, he couldn't be 10 places at once.
Thats because Miller & Casey had no idea how to run a club when they should have, there are no excuses
our club is where it is because it laid all the belief in some poo on lips
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Mr Magic, that is magic!!
:jump :lol :lol :lol :lol
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Lol Tiga. You've inspired me.
(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1944/dumbee.jpg)
Great work Magic! It's scary that Spud just seems to fit all these photos so seamlessly. :P
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:rollin @ tiga and Magic :clapping
(http://oneeyed-richmond.com/images/other/faithlikepotatoes2.JPG)
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Classic MT!!! :rollin :clapping
Although adding in the suntanned one, maybe it should be called "Faith like Baked Potatoes!" ;D
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Although adding in the suntanned one, maybe it should be called "Faith like Baked Potatoes!" ;D
:lol
There is a poster for the novel of the same name with a potato farmer standing in front of his tractor plough but it was too small to photoshop
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HFNGF2M9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
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:lol some good laughs