Face Off - Spud v Wallace

[Tigermonk]

Key figures at Hawthorn didnot want Wallace coaching after his presentation so he was never going to coach them

[Stripes]

Key figures at Hawthorn didnot want Wallace coaching after his presentation so he was never going to coach them

He was offered the job though Tigermonk and it was only when he declined the position that people like Dermie began to make rumbling like you just mentioned. From all reports he had the Hawks position on a platter if he wanted it. In fact the Hawks got rid of their previous coach just so they had time to have a crack at the great sun tanned one. 

[Tigermonk]

from what l was told that Dunstall crossed him off the list after his last interview cause he was asking too much money & the hawks refused him

[big tone]

When Spud left we had virtually no youth and had to start from scratch.

Thats not true.  Terry dropped pretty much all of the 17 and 18 year olds from the club in his first year.  That is why we had an age gap.  We had 8-12 young players that Wallace thought had no skill and dropped.

Can you remember who they were tdyen? Where you surprised at the time by any of their departures?

No I can't, but I was surprised at the time, pretty much none of them got a chance to actually prove they could make it at AFL level.  Few players really show much in their first two years.   It was a bit of a "He's a Frawley era player get rid of him" attitude.  Imagine if Paul Roos had taken that attitude at Sydney!

I think Brent Hartigan was one of the few who got kept on for a few seasons.

Wallace had his good points and bad points like anyone.
He ran the media side of footy very well, as well as any coach has.  He did understand what was going on on the ground better than Spud.  

He also coached average, developed players poorly and probably didn't pick (if he had any influence on this) good medical and fitness people.

And there is the draft picks, but the record here I think has equally as much to do with poor player development as poor selections.

rats my wife has busted me on the richmond boards, gotta go!

Below is our list at the end of Spud's reign. The red names are those who either retired or were offloaded when Wallace arrived.

Of the 23 and unders inherited only Pettifer and Schulz were top 20 picks  . Cogs, Rodan and the speculative Gilmour were the only others inside pick 40. This from a team that missed the finals in 4 of Spud's 5 years and had 14 top 40 picks. The rest were mostly post-pick 50 draft picks. Spud left us with hardly no quality youngsters coming through. At best we got a few solid AFL footballers. Wallace kept all those U22 on. The problem with Plough is after his first draft/trade period he didn't allow us to bottom out and turnover the list quickly so we stagnated in no-man's land (once again). For example Terry while commentating one of our games in 2004 openly said he didn't believe Schulz was up to it yet Schulz in the end out-survived Wallace at Punt Road 5 years later  ???. 
 
32: Campbell (vet)
31. D.Kellaway (vet), Rogers
30: Stafford
29: A.Kellaway, Richardson
28: Gaspar, Marsh
27: Blumfield, Chaffey
26: Brown, Bowden, Fleming, Fletcher, Houlihan, Johnson
25: Hilton, Tivendale
24: Hall, Ottens
23: Fiora, Morrison, Nicholls, Tuck, Dragicevic#
22: Coughlan, Hyde, Newman, Pettifer, Weller, Zantuck
21: Krakouer, Rodan
20: Moore#
19: Hartigan, Roach, Schulz, Foley#
18: Archibald, Gilmour, Jackson, Raines

Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!
We hve no leadership, are as soft as butter and our skills are the worse in the AFL.

TW is a flog of the highest order and has f#@k our club and put it back 5 years.

[Tigermonk]

Danny Frawley with Lids Cotchin & Tambling would have done better with them than Wallace IMOO
Also beleive our Backline in Thursfield, McGuane & others would have been better under the ex backman
That might be a bit naive of me but l truely beleive he was a better coach than Wallace considering Wallace previous experience & his big mouth
l never had faith in Wallace from day 1 because l knew his record with younger Bulldog players & his not well liked.

[Stripes]

While I can't agree that our list problems is completely Wallace's fault, he is responsible for who stays and how existing players are taught and developed. This is where I see TW's biggest crime to be. Our good players rarely reach their potential and how many gems have we actually groomed at club level. If TW said that Schulz was not up to standard BEFORE he even came to the club why has he outlasted him! Just a joke.

It took a psychiatrist to give Tambling the confidence to succeed....why didn't one of our coaches give him the feeling of security and belief every player needs years before so we could have seen him succeeding then? Why was Lids bulked up over preseason to play as a forward only to move to the midfield the same year. Why did TW have him try and avoid tags by moving to the backline/forwardline rather than learning to overcome them? Why was Cotch allowed to train to the extent he did is his second Preseason? And I could go on....inconsistency everywhere and no purposeful development.

Even the style of play TW tried to teach our young players over years will now have to be scrapped and Hardwick will have to start again with the now 23 etc year olds that have know nothing else. The run and receive game style with no defensive mindset is useless against team oriented sides which is another reason why we have failed on field so dramatically lately.

Hardwick should at least go back to basics with the side. Teach a defense first mentality where you shepherd and create space for your team mate. Where you create turnovers through physical pressure. TW created a team that, in the words of Grant Thomas, was a 'pleasure to play against'. Hardwick should bring back the mongrel in the club so we are loathed again.

Spud was even more clueless with no tactics or game plan other than kick it long to Richo! No wonder we never won a game unless Richo kick a bag. We must have been every defenders dream - predictable to the core!

We need a coach with a clue and I pray that Hardwick is that man!  

Stripes

[Tigermonk]

Good Post Stripes 
l dont think Frawley ever had a full side to choose from after 2001 with some key injuries most years which resulted in bad years
when you started on some of Wallaces flaws l grabbed the seat for the workbench to sitdown for a long post 
lucky you stopped at l could go on   

[Mr Magic]

Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!

Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.

[Stripes]

Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!

Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.

So other than Lids and Cotch you don't believe there will be any players left after 5 years? We have 5 players left on the list from the Wallace era. I would suggest that we have more than that after 5 years...but we'll have to wait and see I guess.

Stripes

[Mr Magic]

So other than Lids and Cotch you don't believe there will be any players left after 5 years? We have 5 players left on the list from the Wallace era. I would suggest that we have more than that after 5 years...but we'll have to wait and see I guess.

Don't reckon there will be a lot in it but anyways I think list management is largely a separate argument to who is the better coach anyway.
Maybe we should have a Beck vs Miller/Cameron debate if we want to head down that path?

[Smokey]

Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!

Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.

It's in much better shape than many give credit for MM (IMHO).  This same list was very very competitive for portions of many/most games this year and made some better sides look second rate for a quarter or two.  Fitness, confidence and gameday preparation had a lot more to do with our dismal year than ability.  I have a very strong belief that the change in coaching environment will 'appear' to work miracles but if you look through the veneer of perception you can see a lot of talent and potential...................................well, I can anyway.   

[Francois Jackson]

Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!

Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.

It's in much better shape than many give credit for MM (IMHO).  This same list was very very competitive for portions of many/most games this year and made some better sides look second rate for a quarter or two.  Fitness, confidence and gameday preparation had a lot more to do with our dismal year than ability.  I have a very strong belief that the change in coaching environment will 'appear' to work miracles but if you look through the veneer of perception you can see a lot of talent and potential...................................well, I can anyway.   

i think i have heard it all now.

yes your right about one thing we remainded competetive with the likes of Buldogs and the Pies for 1 quarter, and we only lost by what was it 80 points. Your point is what?? I dont give a stuff about quarters and halves, i care about winning and only winning.

Its not who we lost to, its how we lost. We finished all the games we lost with no leadership out there and all players head bowed into the ground. A captain who cannot motivate his players in any capacity. Players standing by watching their mates getting punched and wrestled and not doing anything is a direct result of a clear lack of leadership throuhg coach and captain.

In better shape? Maybe its the fact that we just delisted Schulz for next to nothing when we could have landed a 2nd rounder if Wallace didnt sunburn his eyes so he could see that ports offer should have been a no brainer
.
If the players respect the coach and play for the coach it doesn't matter if they have a broken wrist or ankle they will go out and give it their all.

[mightytiges]

Our list now is pretty stuff too.
We will be getting rid of more than a 1/4 of our list this year and the same the next. Wallace has left us in the shyt too. If it wasn't for Lids and Cotch our list is a disgrace and i would not be sad to see anyone else go. These two guys are the only stars on our list and one has played about 15 games. All the rest are ok at best!

Here here. Wallet has not built a strong list after 5 years, we've barely gone anywhere.
I am amazed how people think our list is now in significantly better shape than when Wallace took over.
Deledio & Cotchin were basically gifts due to wooden spoons(one Wallet, one Frawley) and the rest are largely unproven.

From an inherited youth perspective it is "better". Not great and nowhere near what it should've been after Wallace's 5 long years but still better than what Frawley left us (it'd be hard to do any worse) which was just 5 players who would still be around 5 years later and it would've been just 4 if Tucky had been able to be traded. Frawley's youth should be making up our mid-age core now but how can you have a core with just 5 players  .

The 23 and unders Frawley inherited - (I might have missed some lesser names and left out those delisted/traded when Spud arrived like McKee and Plapp)

23: Gaspar (114), Biddiscombe (38), James (40), Rombotis (46)
22: Chaffey (40), Holland (65)
21: Bowden (58), Tivendale (12), Torney (53)
20: Hilton (17), Ottens (34), Proctor (16), J.White (-)
19: Dragicevic (17), Hall (1)

Remember Spud also inherited the core remnants of 95 - Richo, Cambo, Knighter, Brodders, both Gales, Rogers, D.Kellaway and Daffy. He also inherited A.Kellaway and traded for Leon Cameron, Sziller and Clinton King. With hardly any injuries in 2001 we made the finals. 3 years later only Richo, Chubba and Cambo on his last legs remained of the oldies although we gained Sugar and Browny. A coach is only as good as his cattle. Spud decimated the cattle  .

Frawley's 23 and unders whom Wallace inherited

23: Tuck (3), Fiora (78 ), Morrison (11), Nicholls (16), Dragicevic# (48 )
22: Newman (54), Coughlan (49), Hyde (30), Pettifer (37), Weller (7), Zantuck (68)
21: Krakouer (56), Rodan (60)
20: Moore# (9)
19: Foley# (-), Hartigan (19), Roach (8 ), Schulz (21)
18: Jackson (6), Archibald (-), Gilmour (-), Raines (1)


Wallace's 23 and unders whom Hardwick is inheriting

23: Jackson (69), Polo (52), Thomson (30), Thursfield (53), McGuane (54), Morton (50), Tambling (95)
22: Deledio (106), Graham (18 ), White (54), Nahas# (19)
21: Hislop (19), Collins (10), Connors (10), Edwards (47), Riewoldt (46)
20: Post (7), Rance (15)
19: Cotchin (25), Vickery (9), Browne# (1), Gilligan# (-)
Gone: Raines, Putt, Oakley-Nicholls, Pattison, Hughes, Gourdis#

The club itself rates 10-12 of the above (including 24 y.o. Foley I presume) as potential premiership players. We need at least that many to go on and form the mid-age core of the side by 2013.

Up to Hardwick and the recruiting dept. to add a second wave of rebuilding and aim for at least 25 potential premiership players on our list within his first contract.

Spud got us into this mess in the first place within 5 years  and Plough only did a quarter of a job in a whole 5 years trying and failing to get us out of it.

[tiga]

I was bored and thought I'd throw this together for a bit of fun.

Click on the pic for a larger image

 

[Stripes]

I was bored and thought I'd throw this together for a bit of fun.

Click on the pic for a larger image

 

Scary tiga! Spud looks the real deal.    Miller is the true villain IMO - had a huge influence on our list.