One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on July 28, 2012, 11:13:57 PM
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Richo asked Hardwick about 3 losses in a row by under a kick. Dimma said yeah it's disappointing but it means we're simply not good enough. We'll keeping fighting out the season but we need to get better. It falls on his shoulders. From him down we need to get better and find the way to win. Ridiculous to lose that many close games.
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would think that Hardwick aint good enough full stop
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thats 100% correct from Hardwick. theres nothing any coach can do when these players make mistakes you wouldnt see in an u16 game of footy. Its unbelievable some of the stuff our players do that costs us games.
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Players and COACHES ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
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why would Cotchin come off after the goal
And why have Moore and McGaune inside F50 in the last 10 minutes
All Carltons goals came directly out of rebounding out of our F50 :banghead
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coming from a bloke who told us that mcguane was the next wayne carey up forward thats a bit rich, but not surprising
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Don't shoot the farmer when the cattle are rooted.
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Dont root the cattle when the farmer is shooting them
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:rollin
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Dont root the cattle when the farmer is shooting them
:lol
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It bloody hurts to see tonights loss it cost me about 500 dollars in the pocket but even worse my feeling with the team they just capitualize every time they hit the front in a close game .... Makes me wanna vomit i am dead set certain we have improved but stuff me if there was ever a time to take the scum out of september and make up for round 1 we stuffing blew it again hurting so bad at the moment i am really HURTING!!!!!
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i think we all are, star2star
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Never going to be any good playing the same duds ever week . Time some were dropped and left dropped not bringing them back after a week out ..
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Till we replace the duds with kids we have to cop it on the chin.
Considering we are 7-10 and our % is still over 100 is quite remarkable.
Last 3 weeks has been the season of what may have been.
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so many god damn duds
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and one of them is the stuffing captain
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you guys dont get it.
if you accept players like maric, Jackson and softie Houli amongst others in your team then of course it will end up like this.
I blame Hardwick as much as i do the players.
he helped recruit these spuds, he selected Miller and Spud maric, no one else. He is the coach buck stops with him.
If he cant get his players to win for him then will be looking for another job in 12 months time.
Beaten by Northern Bullants, what a joke
The whole club has got terminal cancer
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Don't shoot the farmer when the cattle are rooted.
cattle r good enough to be robbed....
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i think we all are, star2star
:lol
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"I'm not good enough" Hardwick ...
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gotta admit i just love all the teeth gnashing from those who regularly overestimate the list.
what were the actual choices we had at the selection table. answer that honestly and you will see just how many duds we have or players who are not up to the standard yet.
people moan about jackson and others me too but who do you replace him with webberley or white or any number of duds.
its true we have some good players but its damn hard to soar as a collective eagle when your surrounded by turkeys.
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and one of them is the stuffing captain
Thats right big man :clapping
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VIDEO: Hardwick, Cotchin Press Conference
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/roar%20vision%20archive/tabid/11454/contentid/473650/default.aspx
Lift or leave: Hardwick
By Ben Collins
Sun 29 Jul, 2012
FUMING Richmond coach Damien Hardwick has issued a stern ultimatum to his players: lift your game or lose your place on the Tigers' list.
After his side went down to Carlton by four points at the MCG on Saturday night - the Tigers' third successive defeat by less than a goal, and their sixth by no more than two goals - Hardwick declared his side simply wasn't good enough to be a finals contender this season.
Although their finals hopes are all but extinguished, he ruled out putting players out to pasture early for operations, saying he was determined to finish the season strongly.
Hardwick put his players on notice in no uncertain terms.
"We're starting to get some guys back, so the pressure's going to start to come," Hardwick said post-match. "Either they start playing for the jumper the way we want them to play or they don't play and they'll quickly find themselves out the door."
Hardwick described the loss to the Blues as "a really bad result", which he largely blamed on basic skills errors that gifted easy goals to the Blues at crucial stages.
"When you lose three games by under a kick, there's some things going wrong that we've got to fix," he said.
"Obviously we're not good enough at this stage. It starts with me from a coaching perspective, all the way down. We've just got to get better in a hell of a lot of areas. I could reel off 10 to you.
"We've lost too many games under two goals. Good sides, first of all, don't get themselves into that position, and good sides win those games. And we're just not there.
"We've got five games to try and salvage something for our supporters, our teammates, our coaching staff. We're not going to put anyone out for ops or anything like that - we're going to go all guns blazing for the remaining five games."
Hardwick also had some encouraging words for Steven Morris, who gave away the free kick from which Brock McLean scored the winning goal.
"He fights and he probably embodies the way we want to play the game," he said. "This guy beside me (Trent Cotchin), Stevie Morris - we've just got to find more of those players who are prepared to do that on a more consistent basis because there were times when we had to go head-first into a contest [but] we just weren't all prepared to do so."
Cotchin said the past three losses had hurt, particularly as they had been the result of their own mistakes rather than the opposition's efforts. "No doubt it hurts, but it's only going to make us stronger and want it even more in the future," Cotchin said.
Cotchin said he and his teammates needed to challenge each other more at training.
"Players need to start getting tougher on each other and competing a little bit more at training, and over time we're going to get better at that and those critical contests will be won more often than not," he said.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/142880/default.aspx
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and one of them is the stuffing captain
Thats right big man :clapping
:thumbsup
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Fair call Dimma but let's see some action at the selection table on those who continually refuse to run hard to contests, lay a tackle at crunch times and have brain fades that simply cannot be put into words
And BTW somes the blokes Iam referring to are your favourites time for them to take a bit of physical contact and prove to me the jumper means something to them
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Harwick Haters got to hate - LOL - I remember when we used to get flogged every week
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Harwick Haters got to hate - LOL - I remember when we used to get flogged every week
I am not Hardwick Hater - still backing him
But if he is going to make sweeping statements about playing for the jumper etc then it needs to be applied to every single player on the list, not just those on the borderline.
Couple of our so called better players last night refused to attack the opposition when big tackles were needed. That ain't playing for the jumper and they should dealt with accordingly
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l will beleive in Hardwick & his gossip when he drops Rewoldt. If that spud gets a game this coming week. It will prove his a gutless coach just like all the others
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l will beleive in Hardwick & his gossip when he drops Rewoldt. If that spud gets a game this coming week. It will prove his a gutless coach just like all the others
Riewoldt is a superstar thats worth a number 1 in a national draft and a player or a top pick in the mini draft and a player ;D. He cant be dropped - he should be shopped to the highest bidder :gotigers
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l will beleive in Hardwick & his gossip when he drops Rewoldt. If that spud gets a game this coming week. It will prove his a gutless coach just like all the others
Riewoldt is a superstar thats worth a number 1 in a national draft and a player or a top pick in the mini draft and a player ;D. He cant be dropped - he should be shopped to the highest bidder :gotigers
Well it dont matter if his dropped or not now. The season is over for Richmond FC. No Good being a super coach if your season was shot last month.
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stuff him off
Lazy and ugly.
Opp teams have him sussed big time.
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l will beleive in Hardwick & his gossip when he drops Rewoldt. If that spud gets a game this coming week. It will prove his a gutless coach just like all the others
Riewoldt is a superstar thats worth a number 1 in a national draft and a player or a top pick in the mini draft and a player ;D. He cant be dropped - he should be shopped to the highest bidder :gotigers
Well it dont matter if his dropped or not now. The season is over for Richmond FC. No Good being a super coach if your season was shot last month.
thats right
what a pack of dumb idiots
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Agree overall our players are not good enough. Rely on too few. Need a clean out
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Are the likes of Nahas and Houli worth anything on the trade table - especially to a club like the Giants?
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Are the likes of Nahas and Houli worth anything on the trade table - especially to a club like the Giants?
Nahas is a required player
He swoops around packs & kicks goals. Also puts on alot of preasure tackling & niggling. He is least of our problem.
Edwards well his been around too long & would be better to trade
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Fair call Dimma but let's see some action at the selection table on those who continually refuse to run hard to contests, lay a tackle at crunch times and have brain fades that simply cannot be put into words
And BTW somes the blokes Iam referring to are your favourites time for them to take a bit of physical contact and prove to me the jumper means something to them
Whilst I agree WP, what can we do?
Drop Riewoldt for Miller?...
Drop Moore for Verrier?...
Drop Maric for Webberley?..
Having got much in the shed. Dropping these guys only depletes the team even more.
Its easy to drop guys out of form when your list is full of players that are worth replacing with. We still have a list that from 12th player picked down is still very very very ordinary or not ready for AFL.
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This is the problem you have when there is no competition for spots a malaise comes over some as they know only too well that they will not be dropped then they just drop off intencity with the next bloke is going to do it. Get a few blokes doing that add a few more who shouldn't be playing in a suburban side and mix that all together and you have a recipe of disaster which is not the coaches fault but one of environment circumstance and one where the onus must fall squarely on the players.
You can't keep blaming a coach. Simple as that no other explanation boys. :thumbsup
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I think you're right Tucker. It keeps come back to depth. Our top line players are good enough to take it to the best teams in the competition. When we had our first choice team we beat Hawthorn and Sydney and almost won against Collingwood, Geelong, West coast, Adelaide, North and Carlton. Could we have boasted that last year. Our best is good enough but when our better players drop off and need to be replaced we are exposed.
No depth equals no pressure for spots and no chance to cover injury.
Imagine Maric went out for the season or Cotch, Lids, Rance or Jack? Vickery is irreplaceable and we have suffered in his absence. Like Vickery, Foley can not be covered nor can Grimes. We need another tall forward, another tall backman and more quality midfielders.
Hardwick knows what type of player we need - strong bodied, good users of the ball who are willing to put their heads over the ball. Morris, King and Cotchin are Dimmas favourites for a reason - they never give up and if they make a mistake they make up for it in the next contest.
Dimma and the club and seeking to get the players to the club to fit this mould but he has only just been able to put together 22 players to compete. Developing and finding the players to provide pressure for spots/depth is the next step.
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I think you're right Tucker. It keeps come back to depth. Our top line players are good enough to take it to the best teams in the competition. When we had our first choice team we beat Hawthorn and Sydney and almost won against Collingwood, Geelong, West coast, Adelaide, North and Carlton. Could we have boasted that last year. Our best is good enough but when our better players drop off and need to be replaced we are exposed.
No depth equals no pressure for spots and no chance to cover injury.
Imagine Maric went out for the season or Cotch, Lids, Rance or Jack? Vickery is irreplaceable and we have suffered in his absence. Like Vickery, Foley can not be covered nor can Grimes. We need another tall forward, another tall backman and more quality midfielders.
Hardwick knows what type of player we need - strong bodied, good users of the ball who are willing to put their heads over the ball. Morris, King and Cotchin are Dimmas favourites for a reason - they never give up and if they make a mistake they make up for it in the next contest.
Dimma and the club and seeking to get the players to the club to fit this mould but he has only just been able to put together 22 players to compete. Developing and finding the players to provide pressure for spots/depth is the next step.
Spot on Stripes, excellent post.
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I think you're right Tucker. It keeps come back to depth. Our top line players are good enough to take it to the best teams in the competition. When we had our first choice team we beat Hawthorn and Sydney and almost won against Collingwood, Geelong, West coast, Adelaide, North and Carlton. Could we have boasted that last year. Our best is good enough but when our better players drop off and need to be replaced we are exposed.
No depth equals no pressure for spots and no chance to cover injury.
Imagine Maric went out for the season or Cotch, Lids, Rance or Jack? Vickery is irreplaceable and we have suffered in his absence. Like Vickery, Foley can not be covered nor can Grimes. We need another tall forward, another tall backman and more quality midfielders.
Hardwick knows what type of player we need - strong bodied, good users of the ball who are willing to put their heads over the ball. Morris, King and Cotchin are Dimmas favourites for a reason - they never give up and if they make a mistake they make up for it in the next contest.
Dimma and the club and seeking to get the players to the club to fit this mould but he has only just been able to put together 22 players to compete. Developing and finding the players to provide pressure for spots/depth is the next step.
Spot on Stripes, excellent post.
:clapping well said
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Fair call Dimma but let's see some action at the selection table on those who continually refuse to run hard to contests, lay a tackle at crunch times and have brain fades that simply cannot be put into words
And BTW somes the blokes Iam referring to are your favourites time for them to take a bit of physical contact and prove to me the jumper means something to them
Whilst I agree WP, what can we do?
Drop Riewoldt for Miller?...
Drop Moore for Verrier?...
Drop Maric for Webberley?..
Having got much in the shed. Dropping these guys only depletes the team even more.
Its easy to drop guys out of form when your list is full of players that are worth replacing with. We still have a list that from 12th player picked down is still very very very ordinary or not ready for AFL.
Agree with you Pope - said in the changes for Brissie game thread, that sitting at the game on Sautruday night and having the injured players behind told me why there wont be too many changes
However stil think you can:
Drop Minin Maric for Matt White - at least with Matt you knwo he will attack the contest and give you a contest. Unlike Mini who since the Saints game just stops & props and seems unwilling to try and tackle
Drop Moore for Griffiths if he is fit
Drop McGuane for Batchelor - again if he is fit
As for the others who refuse to go in for a hard ball - well they survive simple because we have no one else
And BTW - very good post Stripes :thumbsup
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The list is not good enough Dimma.
Focus needs to be on that.
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This is the problem you have when there is no competition for spots a malaise comes over some as they know only too well that they will not be dropped then they just drop off intencity with the next bloke is going to do it. Get a few blokes doing that add a few more who shouldn't be playing in a suburban side and mix that all together and you have a recipe of disaster which is not the coaches fault but one of environment circumstance and one where the onus must fall squarely on the players.
You can't keep blaming a coach. Simple as that no other explanation boys. :thumbsup
Yes you can. He recruited most of these duds down at Coburg. How is Nason going? We should have a third year player from that draft pick that would be providing depth at the very least. How many other picks have we stuffed up under Hardwick. Was the same fantasy that people projected under Wallace while he continuously recruited duds that never made it.
Do people think our list development is magic and the coach is a spectator to every facet of the football club and thus absolved of all responsibility.
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He recruited most of these duds down at Coburg.
Huh?? :huh :huh :huh
Blame the list manager.
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What weve seen is an indictment on all Richmond coaches and administrations over the past decade and certainly the period of 2004 through 2007. That Hardwick has made 30 changes to the list in 2 and half years and that we still have another 10 to go is a disgrace. This is not Hardwicks fault. Couple that with rebuilding during compromised drafts and the result is that Hardwick has done a very very good job IMHO.
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Fair call Dimma but let's see some action at the selection table on those who continually refuse to run hard to contests, lay a tackle at crunch times and have brain fades that simply cannot be put into words
And BTW somes the blokes Iam referring to are your favourites time for them to take a bit of physical contact and prove to me the jumper means something to them
Whilst I agree WP, what can we do?
Drop Riewoldt for Miller?...
Drop Moore for Verrier?...
Drop Maric for Webberley?..
Having got much in the shed. Dropping these guys only depletes the team even more.
Its easy to drop guys out of form when your list is full of players that are worth replacing with. We still have a list that from 12th player picked down is still very very very ordinary or not ready for AFL.
Agree with you Pope - said in the changes for Brissie game thread, that sitting at the game on Sautruday night and having the injured players behind told me why there wont be too many changes
However stil think you can:
Drop Minin Maric for Matt White - at least with Matt you knwo he will attack the contest and give you a contest. Unlike Mini who since the Saints game just stops & props and seems unwilling to try and tackle
Drop Moore for Griffiths if he is fit
Drop McGuane for Batchelor - again if he is fit
As for the others who refuse to go in for a hard ball - well they survive simple because we have no one else
And BTW - very good post Stripes :thumbsup
not pulling my own chain here wp but ive been saying exactly that all yr.
finals was not a realistic consideration because of depth issues and the age and inexperience of the players we have earmarked to come thru and replace the older duds.
i can tell ya now this problem will be there next yr as well it is not something that can be fixed with the stroke of a pen it takes yrs to get enough games into a recruit.
ie to get the bulk of the 2009 crop to 80 - 100 games you are looking at 5 or 6 yrs alone. lets say 2013 2014 hen they hit their prime and physical development is complete.
the 2010 crop 2014 15. the 2011 crop 2015 16. thats just 3 or 4 players for each of those yrs if that many actually make the grade. that alone shows how long it can take to build a list.
okay on those players mentioned
matt white should not ever play another game we should know who we are going to delist by now and if hes not one it would reek of utter incompetence. play mini maric for the rest of the yr and have a damn good look at him and see if hes worth persevering. theres a lot of sheep on here who just follow the pack imo maric has some good tools to work with white has what a bit of pace and nothing else. well know what we are gunna get and its not good enough.
moore for griffiths disagree play both griffiths needs game time we have to put games into him moore well hes missed so much footy he is not going to tear it up but again we need to know for sure if he can get back to his best that may take 12 months we certainly wont find out by not playing him.
mcguane if hes to go and i agree he should see white. we need to replace him with a tall forward give elton the last 5 games of the yr lets give him the experience, lets also give astbury some games if fit. i agree on batchelor we do need to play him and we should.
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This is the problem you have when there is no competition for spots a malaise comes over some as they know only too well that they will not be dropped then they just drop off intencity with the next bloke is going to do it. Get a few blokes doing that add a few more who shouldn't be playing in a suburban side and mix that all together and you have a recipe of disaster which is not the coaches fault but one of environment circumstance and one where the onus must fall squarely on the players.
You can't keep blaming a coach. Simple as that no other explanation boys. :thumbsup
Yes you can. He recruited most of these duds down at Coburg. How is Nason going? We should have a third year player from that draft pick that would be providing depth at the very least. How many other picks have we stuffed up under Hardwick. Was the same fantasy that people projected under Wallace while he continuously recruited duds that never made it.
Do people think our list development is magic and the coach is a spectator to every facet of the football club and thus absolved of all responsibility.
That you only named Nason who was a pick around 80 in the national draft shows that Hardwick has done a great job. If you want to find guilty parties go back about 8 years thats where you will see the major errors that are costing us now in recruiting. By the way - where is Tambling or Meyer or Polo, where is Jarrad Oakley Nicholls or Travis Casserley or Cleve Hughes. Not Dimmas fault gentlemen. Never has been. He is trying to fix a train wreck.
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I think it's the way we play is the issue
No doubt defensively as a team we don't leak down back which now makes us competive on scoreboard
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You forgot the other 2 1st rnd gems, Polo or Pattison
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You forgot the other 2 1st rnd gems, Polo or Pattison
Sorry I forgot about them. With Pattison and Polo theres 8 players drafted with very decent picks who would have and should have added the depth we need now. Unfortunately the recruiting was complete crap. That wasnt Hardwick's mistakes that was other peoples mistakes that he is paying for now.
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Correct
Dimma should be judged on your Conca, Ellis types
Conca has a long way to go to justify pick 6 IMO
I just hope we don't draft any more players under 6 ft
Conca, Ellis might be great players but we need quick off the mark mids over 185cms
Add Houli, Grigg, King and Newman and we are very slow
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Correct
Dimma should be judged on your Conca, Ellis types
Conca has a long way to go to justify pick 6 IMO
I just hope we don't draft any more players under 6 ft
Conca, Ellis might be great players but we need quick off the mark mids over 185cms
Add Houli, Grigg, King and Newman and we are very slow
Agree 100%. We need to see improvement from Ellis and Conca to justify their draft positions as well.
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This is the problem you have when there is no competition for spots a malaise comes over some as they know only too well that they will not be dropped then they just drop off intencity with the next bloke is going to do it. Get a few blokes doing that add a few more who shouldn't be playing in a suburban side and mix that all together and you have a recipe of disaster which is not the coaches fault but one of environment circumstance and one where the onus must fall squarely on the players.
You can't keep blaming a coach. Simple as that no other explanation boys. :thumbsup
Yes you can. He recruited most of these duds down at Coburg. How is Nason going? We should have a third year player from that draft pick that would be providing depth at the very least. How many other picks have we stuffed up under Hardwick. Was the same fantasy that people projected under Wallace while he continuously recruited duds that never made it.
Do people think our list development is magic and the coach is a spectator to every facet of the football club and thus absolved of all responsibility.
not having a shot at you but that is a naieve post.
ben nason was taken at pick 71 do you know how many picks that late actually make it, you dont actually expect those sort of picks to make it its about getting lucky and knowing you just may have to use a similar pick 5 or 6 times to find one good player.
its about delisting a known dud and trying someone else who may or maynot make it. they usually last that long in the draft because they have glaring weaknesses in their game that usually catches them out.
of course hardwick has a say in the type of player he wants. but he doesnt choose the player or where that player is taken. ben nason was supposedly taken under the good kick mantra which should apply to every player we recruit.
hes cut 25 players from the 2009 playing list.
hes cut farmer/trade taylor/pick 51 and nason/pick 71 from 2009 draft. these are the only players on the list proper that have come to the club in hardwicks time and are gone apart from gourdis /psd.
hes cut none from the 2010 draft apart from gourdis who was a psd pick and we ended up putting him on the rookie list.
and obviously hes cut none from the 2011 draft.
on top of this we have cut and turned over our fair share of rookies without too much success. like late nd picks that is the nature of the rookie draft. you get em in turn em over and hopefully you find the odd decent player. most of the time you miss out.
i have to ask. under hrdwick we have cut 25 to date from the list proper but how many have we found to replace those 25. in three trade draft periods we have cut 25 not including rookies.
that means to replace them with good up to standard players we have to find 8 good players for each yr hardwick has been there, frankly people that just does not happen. not with late nd and rookie picks.
how have our trades and picks in the first 3 rounds fared that is the real question but remember two drafts have been heavily compromised with concessions.
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Correct
Dimma should be judged on your Conca, Ellis types
Conca has a long way to go to justify pick 6 IMO
I just hope we don't draft any more players under 6 ft
Conca, Ellis might be great players but we need quick off the mark mids over 185cms
Add Houli, Grigg, King and Newman and we are very slow
i think you have it wrong
jackson cameron hartley and the recruiting team should be judged on how well we recriut.
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Correct
Dimma should be judged on your Conca, Ellis types
Conca has a long way to go to justify pick 6 IMO
I just hope we don't draft any more players under 6 ft
Conca, Ellis might be great players but we need quick off the mark mids over 185cms
Add Houli, Grigg, King and Newman and we are very slow
i think you have it wrong
jackson cameron hartley and the recruiting team should be judged on how well we recriut.
No I think your wrong
Based on your theory leather face shouldn't be judged on the train wreck we find ourselves in?
Was all Miller and FJ fault was it?
Dimma is head of development and buck stops with him
Claw your good with figures can you do a summation of FJ
IMO we need a fresh face. Jack R was his best result at 13
Dusty/Cotch were not hidden gems
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By the way - where is Tambling or Meyer or Polo, where is Jarrad Oakley Nicholls or Travis Casserley or Cleve Hughes. Not Dimmas fault gentlemen. Never has been. He is trying to fix a train wreck.
Tambling is playing for Sturt and about to get dropped to the reserves.
Meyer retired at the end of last year.
Jarrad Oakley Nicholls is playing for East Perth
Travis Casserley is currently (I think) serving a two year ban for drug use
and Cleve Hughes is playing for Southport up in Queensland
A fine bunch of young men.
:cheers
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By the way - where is Tambling or Meyer or Polo, where is Jarrad Oakley Nicholls or Travis Casserley or Cleve Hughes. Not Dimmas fault gentlemen. Never has been. He is trying to fix a train wreck.
Tambling is playing for Sturt and about to get dropped to the reserves.
Meyer retired at the end of last year.
Jarrad Oakley Nicholls is playing for East Perth
Travis Casserley is currently (I think) serving a two year ban for drug use
and Cleve Hughes is playing for Southport up in Queensland
A fine bunch of young men.
:cheers
So what your saying is that we wasted a bunch of 1st and 2nd round picks on players who are struggling to meet State League standards. And people wanna blame Hardwick. Dear Oh Dear!
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Correct
Dimma should be judged on your Conca, Ellis types
Conca has a long way to go to justify pick 6 IMO
I just hope we don't draft any more players under 6 ft
Conca, Ellis might be great players but we need quick off the mark mids over 185cms
Add Houli, Grigg, King and Newman and we are very slow
i think you have it wrong
jackson cameron hartley and the recruiting team should be judged on how well we recriut.
No I think your wrong
Based on your theory leather face shouldn't be judged on the train wreck we find ourselves in?
Was all Miller and FJ fault was it?
Dimma is head of development and buck stops with him
Claw your good with figures can you do a summation of FJ
IMO we need a fresh face. Jack R was his best result at 13
Dusty/Cotch were not hidden gems
ive criticised old leather face incessantly for a lot of things daniel but i dont blame him for our recruiting blunders.
an example. every man and his dog blames wallace for jon. well the simple fact is wallace asked for a quick skillful outside player he didnt ask for a specific player or say where we should take him.
the two recruiters then had a look around and came up with travis varcoe and jon. miller wanted varcoe but bowed to jackson and the rest is history. do we blame wallace for the oakleys pick i dont think so.every coach is entitled to ask for certain player types or ask their recruiters to get a type to fill a hole. im sure they all do this.
if hardwick is making final decisions on the player we draft and where we take him then we are in a power of trouble but we all know that is not the case.
as for jackson well im critical. will say hes been an upgrade on greg beck and is improving as he goes.we at least get our first rounders pretty right. imo i would have gone out and got matt rendell to form a partnership with jackson we need to improve in the area.
my biggest criticism is for craig cameron list management has been terible in his time at the club.
there are other areas of the club that dont ever seem to improve matt hornsby as our elite performance manager is one hes been there a long time and we dont seem to get anywhere in this area. surely those in charge need to be reviewed just like the list is. the aim should be to continually improve and get the best possible people we can in key areas.
imo his recruiting from 05 to 08 has been ordinary. imo it is too early to be making calls on 09 onwards.
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the coach decides the type of players to recruit, the recruiters then try to get the best available to fit his criteria.
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Recruiters find them but before they are hired/drafted the coach gets the final say
If you don't think Wallace is to blame for this recruiting mess well i really don't have much to say to that.
FJ was P/T in 2005 alongside Miller but Miller/Wallace were like dumb and dumber. Both pathetic and both the core of our issues today.
As i said FJ shouldnt be judged on the Cotchin/Dusty types but on the Jack R/Vickery/Ellis and Conca types.
Couldn't hurt to give him some more help though
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How are Troy Taylor, Ben Nason, Mitch Farmer, Tom Hislop, Dean Macdonald, Heslin, Dan Connors etc going?
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Recruiters find them but before they are hired/drafted the coach gets the final say
If you don't think Wallace is to blame for this recruiting mess well i really don't have much to say to that.
FJ was P/T in 2005 alongside Miller but Miller/Wallace were like dumb and dumber. Both pathetic and both the core of our issues today.
As i said FJ shouldnt be judged on the Cotchin/Dusty types but on the Jack R/Vickery/Ellis and Conca types.
Couldn't hurt to give him some more help though
nope your totally wrong. again a coach may ask for a certain type but the recruiters find them, they the coach may have a say in who they prefer if it came down to a choice between two players but the final decision comes down to the head recruiter.
if we opeate any other way we are doomed.
wallace obviously had a say in some of our choices but at the end of the day the buck stops with miller jackson and after 07 cameron.
iknow as fact that jon was a jackson pick i also know that jackson was very keen on thomson and hislop as juniors. as the head of recruiting it is not surprising that we ended up with them.
finally you are wrong jackson had the good sense to actually take cotchin and martin in days gone by under beck we would have ended up with a pettifer or some sort. you have to give credit where its due. it may have been a no brainer to take them but at the end of the day you still have to take em. judge him on his overall performance not just one part of his performance. seems to me we have got very few 2nd and 3rd round picks right under jackson. we havent had a lot of late nd or rookie picks either but they are for all clubs a low hit/miss ratio.
i for one would like to know what people think is a successful draft pick. it seems for most unless they are a 10 yr plus very good player the pick is a failure how stupid is that.
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How are Troy Taylor, Ben Nason, Mitch Farmer, Tom Hislop, Dean Macdonald, Heslin, Dan Connors etc going?
taylor 51 a 4th rnd pick how many 4th rounders make it.talent wise was the best kid left risk was his off field behavior.
nason 71 a 5th or 6th ronder how many make it.
farmer was a trade for schulz. at the time schulz was giving nothing yes we lost out on that one as it panned out.
hislop was pick 58 again how many such late picks make it.
macdonald 51 3rd round and a clear risky mistake.
heslin a rookie pick from ireland sheesh how many rookie ics dont make it.
connors pick 58 4th rnd selection. again such a late pick so so many taken here in the entire league fail.
7 players above. i would have been happy to find one decent player maybe two seeing as 3 of them were retreads out of those 7 when you consider where they were taken. macdonald and taylor picks are disappointing because we knew they came with attitude.
that sort of hit and miss ratio is representative of the whole league. im not defending them but just have to ask what do people expect with late picks.
its like people expect every single pick we use to be succesful it doesnt work that way.
if we use 7 picks you could almost bet 3 will fail. that doesnt just apply to us but every club.i just think we should keep this in mind when we try to judge every single pick.
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lol
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lol
you do like to insult your fellow posters .
ive taken the time to post my thoughts on where those players are taken in reply to your post. like so many childish posters around here, we get well a childish response.
if you disagree thats fine but at least have the decency to say why. responses with emoticons that a 10 yr old would use really dont cut it and are very disrespectful.
a question for you what percentage of 4th 5th 6th rounders psd and rookie picks do you think we should have success with. the success rate with these picks is very low for all clubs.
if we had 6 pick 60s i would expect only 0ne or maybe two to make it.
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You just don't understand :banghead
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Naive Claw is pretending Nason was the only dud selection when you know full well that he was used only as an example of Hardwick's incompetence. Not as a definitive list of his failures. The really scary thing about the Nason recruiting decision and why I especially highlighted him was nowhere on the Richmond Playing List needs was there a spot for another light framed midget.......
You have to wonder why we hung on to Moore, Gourdis, Hislop, Connors, Miller, etc.
Hardwick has drafted 36 players so far. How many are contributing at a senior level now.
Ellis. Pick 15. Can't kick. Dea pick 44. Average player. Martin Pick 4. Conca 6. Should have picked Heppell.
Its really too early to analyse the immensity of Hardwick's draft blunders. That will wait a couple of years. But you would expect more than 4 players considering how poorly you rate the list. Apart from Martin, these other players could be the Jackson's and Edwards of the future.
Claw, if you apply your 7 to 3 principle. Should be 15 players there. Where are the other 11? Maybe could find half a dozen more that might be good for depth. But lets digress from your fascination with depth, the draft, and previous coaches who delegated everything and had no money, resources or facilities to work with. Those things can't be changed.
He can't coach on match day and his game plan doesn't work with the list we have. He is not good enough to take this club forward. Its a simple but harsh reality. With Malthouse available, you couldn't possibly continue with Hardwick no more than you could continue with Angus Graham even though he has a year on his contract.
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It doesn't take a genius to know I wasn't suggesting all those players should be kicking 8 a week and leading us to a premiership. Read some of the posts before mine. Read something Daniel said.
It's about player development and list management, guy.
I also deleted my post but obviously you quoted it and started your reply before I deleted it. Point with that post was I don't like someone PMing me and telling me they will follow me all over the forum if I act like a smartass occasionally.
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I think it's the way we play is the issue
No doubt defensively as a team we don't leak down back which now makes us competive on scoreboard
But we did last year. Isn't that improvement?
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Naive Claw is pretending Nason was the only dud selection when you know full well that he was used only as an example of Hardwick's incompetence. Not as a definitive list of his failures.
whos pretending nason is his only failure. and i disagree with that notion. nason like all picks are the recruiters failures. you mentioned nason and all i have done is question the expectations we should have on pick 71 in the draft.
i agree with a god bit of your post and disagree with other bits.
i just think we shouldnt be hanging them for not getting pick 71 right or a psd pick or late or rookie picks. you get way more wrong than you get right when you take em so late.
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It doesn't take a genius to know I wasn't suggesting all those players should be kicking 8 a week and leading us to a premiership. Read some of the posts before mine. Read something Daniel said.
It's about player development and list management, guy.
I also deleted my post but obviously you quoted it and started your reply before I deleted it. Point with that post was I don't like someone PMing me and telling me they will follow me all over the forum if I act like a smartass occasionally.
didnt think you were suggesting all those players should be kicking 8 each week. i thought you were being derisive and dismissive. if i have misunderstood i apologise believe it or not i dont come on here to get into slanging matches.
i have an opinion on the club and its players and voice those opinions as often as i can. i have no problem with people disagreeing with me but take umbrage if i think people are being derisive.
as i said if people are prepared to show a little respect i sure as hell will give a little respect back.
oh and will delete my post as well.
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okay on those players mentioned
matt white should not ever play another game we should know who we are going to delist by now and if hes not one it would reek of utter incompetence. play mini maric for the rest of the yr and have a damn good look at him and see if hes worth persevering. theres a lot of sheep on here who just follow the pack imo maric has some good tools to work with white has what a bit of pace and nothing else. well know what we are gunna get and its not good enough.
give elton the last 5 games of the yr lets give him the experience
1. You say don't play Matt White because we should know who to delist by now but then say play A. Maric to find out if we should? Double standards for players you like and don't like.
2. Weren't you preaching that Grimes needs to put on weight so he doesn't get injured because his not big enough for KPP? But now you want to risk the development of Elton by playing him as a KPP although he is younger and even more of a stick.
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whos pretending nason is his only failure. and i disagree with that notion. nason like all picks are the recruiters failures. you mentioned nason and all i have done is question the expectations we should have on pick 71 in the draft.
i agree with a god bit of your post and disagree with other bits.
i just think we shouldnt be hanging them for not getting pick 71 right or a psd pick or late or rookie picks. you get way more wrong than you get right when you take em so late.
No one is hanging him for one bad draft pick. Nason was an example of a bad draft choice. You don't have to look hard to find others. Recruiting is an example of one Hardwick failure. Its not the complete picture, just one facet of it.
To suggest Hardwick isn't responsible for the Nason draft pick or recruiting in general is pretty biased or to use your words, naive. If he isn't filtering any of the selections before they go to the draft, there is something seriously wrong. The fact that he gave Nason plenty of game time suggests that he was his pick. Logically, if he didn't want him, there is no way he would have given him so many games.
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Point with that post was I don't like someone PMing me and telling me they will follow me all over the forum if I act like a smartass occasionally.
You know how to pick em eh big fella? :lol
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Tambling is playing for Sturt and about to get dropped to the reserves.
Just a correction on that, he was actually named as an emergency for the Crows last week against Geelong
And the reason he has missed games for Sturt was because of injuries including been knocked out twice. Must be something in the water over there
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No worries claw. I know you love the club and you put a lot of effort into your posts. :thumbsup
Point with that post was I don't like someone PMing me and telling me they will follow me all over the forum if I act like a smartass occasionally.
You know how to pick em eh big fella? :lol
Just got back from seeing your mum Tony :lol
Tambling is playing for Sturt and about to get dropped to the reserves.
Just a correction on that, he was actually named as an emergency for the Crows last week against Geelong
And the reason he has missed games for Sturt was because of injuries including been knocked out twice. Must be something in the water over there
will we rookie Tambling when he gets delisted? ;D
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How dare you! :scream Would love to meet you face to face
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okay on those players mentioned
matt white should not ever play another game we should know who we are going to delist by now and if hes not one it would reek of utter incompetence. play mini maric for the rest of the yr and have a damn good look at him and see if hes worth persevering. theres a lot of sheep on here who just follow the pack imo maric has some good tools to work with white has what a bit of pace and nothing else. well know what we are gunna get and its not good enough.
give elton the last 5 games of the yr lets give him the experience
1. You say don't play Matt White because we should know who to delist by now but then say play A. Maric to find out if we should? Double standards for players you like and don't like.
2. Weren't you preaching that Grimes needs to put on weight so he doesn't get injured because his not big enough for KPP? But now you want to risk the development of Elton by playing him as a KPP although he is younger and even more of a stick.
cant elton play as a third tall geez hes already bigger than grimes.
matt white has had 7 yrs and nearly 90 games how many more times do you need to see him. a maric has played 3 or 4 games for us mostly as a sub. i sure hope you can spot the difference now.
personally id like to see what maric has to offer over the next 5 weeks.he certainly has a better skillset and footy nous than a lot who are there. those two reasons alone says we should have a close look at him at the level. it has nothing to do with favorites and who i like and dont like.
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whos pretending nason is his only failure. and i disagree with that notion. nason like all picks are the recruiters failures. you mentioned nason and all i have done is question the expectations we should have on pick 71 in the draft.
i agree with a god bit of your post and disagree with other bits.
i just think we shouldnt be hanging them for not getting pick 71 right or a psd pick or late or rookie picks. you get way more wrong than you get right when you take em so late.
No one is hanging him for one bad draft pick. Nason was an example of a bad draft choice. You don't have to look hard to find others. Recruiting is an example of one Hardwick failure. Its not the complete picture, just one facet of it.
To suggest Hardwick isn't responsible for the Nason draft pick or recruiting in general is pretty biased or to use your words, naive. If he isn't filtering any of the selections before they go to the draft, there is something seriously wrong. The fact that he gave Nason plenty of game time suggests that he was his pick. Logically, if he didn't want him, there is no way he would have given him so many games.
no they are hanging him for 4 failed late picks to date.
and cmon unplugged. ben nason was a totally out of left field selection so was jeromey webberley.someone at the club had seen em play and recommended we pick em. we used late picks on them because of the risk that went with them. now who goes out and watches kids play while hardwick coaches.
he nason got games because he was a mature recruit 20 yo as opposed to 18 and he met the rquired skill standard that was set. can yu remember just how bad the turnovers were not that long ago. you couldnt even put a game plan in place because they couldnt string 3 passes together. good footskills was the mnantra and it still should be when drafting any kid.
one thing for sure we disagree on whos responsible for recruiting and what part the caoch plays in it. lets see hardwick went to sa watched sanfl reserves and decided to draft nason. while he was at it he went to tassie and watched webberley play and said yep we have to have this bloke. sheesh.
as i said i agree with parts of what you have to say but disagree totally with other bits. needless to say on those things we will have to agree to disagree.
hardwick has been there for 3 drafts how anyone can make a definative call on most of the selections from those 3 drafts is beyond me.
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now who goes out and watches kids play while hardwick coaches.
lets see hardwick went to sa watched sanfl reserves and decided to draft nason. while he was at it he went to tassie and watched webberley play and said yep we have to have this bloke. sheesh.
:lol
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Hardwick has made a fairly honest self-assessment of the team with regards to his comment but does he actually know why we are not good enough?
He can spin off comments that blokes need to play for the jumper - but I want to know does he actually know what the problem is and what to do to fix it?
Would much rather he come clean and say that we are not fit enough, lack of skill under pressure, no guts etc and he is going to train the crap out of them this week etc
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The problem is simple at Tigerland, the list does not have depth as the 15th to 22nd player picked would not get a game at a top 4 side.
Why McGuane is playing instead of Elton, I do not know and is a mystery.
Jackson, Edwards, King, Nahas, Tuck, A Maric should not be in the side when the Tigers play a final.
Blokes like Grigg, Dea, Moore, Post should be fringe plsyers at best.
Keep the administration stable as there is still a lot of room for improvement at Tigerland on the playing list.
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Ellis. Pick 15. Can't kick. Dea pick 44. Average player. Martin Pick 4. Conca 6. Should have picked Heppell.
Heppell's good, so is Caddy, there is so much we could have done with that pick. I like Reece's game and where it's going but let's face it he was a shock selection at pick 6. If we wanted him so bad we should have traded for a mid to late teens pick, we would have got him there. I don't know who to blame for this one but it's a blunder. We could have had our Conca and eaten it too but again we erred in the draft.
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Would much rather he come clean and say that we are not fit enough, lack of skill under pressure, no guts etc and he is going to train the crap out of them this week etc
It will not happen. Hardwick is not allowed to flog the players on the track, which is what I thought they deserved a few weeks ago. This is of course at the behest of the fitness staff, the same people who force players like Cotchin to sprint 90 metres to the bench after kicking a goal, even though he is already having a breather at FF. Or rotating gun players to the bench at critical moments. I would rather have an exhausted lactic acid filled Trent Cotchin in the middle than anyone else on the team fresh. Why was Cotchin on the bench vs GCS? Who is calling the shots here? Hardwick needs to take charge here, he has the feel for footy, they don't.
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Would much rather he come clean and say that we are not fit enough, lack of skill under pressure, no guts etc and he is going to train the crap out of them this week etc
It will not happen. Hardwick is not allowed to flog the players on the track, which is what I thought they deserved a few weeks ago. This is of course at the behest of the fitness staff, the same people who force players like Cotchin to sprint 90 metres to the bench after kicking a goal, even though he is already having a breather at FF. Or rotating gun players to the bench at critical moments. I would rather have an exhausted lactic acid filled Trent Cotchin in the middle than anyone else on the team fresh. Why was Cotchin on the bench vs GCS? Who is calling the shots here? Hardwick needs to take charge here, he has the feel for footy, they don't.
Would much rather he come clean and say that we are not fit enough, lack of skill under pressure, no guts etc and he is going to train the crap out of them this week etc
It will not happen. Hardwick is not allowed to flog the players on the track, which is what I thought they deserved a few weeks ago. This is of course at the behest of the fitness staff, the same people who force players like Cotchin to sprint 90 metres to the bench after kicking a goal, even though he is already having a breather at FF. Or rotating gun players to the bench at critical moments. I would rather have an exhausted lactic acid filled Trent Cotchin in the middle than anyone else on the team fresh. Why was Cotchin on the bench vs GCS? Who is calling the shots here? Hardwick needs to take charge here, he has the feel for footy, they don't.
You maybe right here - a few weeks ago I spoke to a player who said that they were not allowed to do any training on their own like goal kicking etc as it was harmful to their recovery. All there training was planned to the nth degree to maximise their recovery and performance for gameday.
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Well if Dimma says were not good enough why is he playing guys not up to it week in and week out.Maric,McGuane,Moore and Dea.The last 3 weeks all 4 have killed us with there turnovers and skill errors and they keep on getting games.Not one of them in the last 3 games has strung a decent game for us.Play the kids.
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No argument here!
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Kelvin is spent as an AFL and it smacks of football socialism to play him.
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Recruiters find them but before they are hired/drafted the coach gets the final say
If you don't think Wallace is to blame for this recruiting mess well i really don't have much to say to that.
FJ was P/T in 2005 alongside Miller but Miller/Wallace were like dumb and dumber. Both pathetic and both the core of our issues today.
As i said FJ shouldnt be judged on the Cotchin/Dusty types but on the Jack R/Vickery/Ellis and Conca types.
Couldn't hurt to give him some more help though
the coach does not have the final say.
Dimma has a fair bit of input in trades but very little in draft selections.
http://oneeyed-richmond.com/forum/index.php?topic=13949.msg256437#msg256437
somehow i doubt that very little imput equates to having the final say.
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Well if Dimma says were not good enough why is he playing guys not up to it week in and week out.Maric,McGuane,Moore and Dea.The last 3 weeks all 4 have killed us with there turnovers and skill errors and they keep on getting games.Not one of them in the last 3 games has strung a decent game for us.Play the kids.
Dea is a kid.
Moore is only playing because Astbury has been working back from injury.
Elton will come in for McGuane again likely but he's clearly not ready yet.
Maric getting a game because the cupboard is pretty well bare re small forwards.
Have a look at Coburg, it's very slim pickings.
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Its slim picking because the drafting has been bad. Not just going back to the Wallace and Frawley era's. But under Hardwick as well.
36 draft picks and only a handful are contributing.
What compounds the poor drafting is poor player development. Our players go backwards.
We should be playing the kids but I reckon we won't because five more losses and Hardwick might get the axe.
Elton and Arnot should get plenty of game time. Even if they don't perform, at least you will get an indication of what they are capable of at the elite level. At least they will get some experience instead of playing at the abominable vfl level with that embarrassing coburg team.
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What compounds the poor drafting is poor player development. Our players go backwards.
We should be playing the kids but I reckon we won't because five more losses and Hardwick might get the axe.
Elton and Arnot should get plenty of game time. Even if they don't perform, at least you will get an indication of what they are capable of at the elite level. At least they will get some experience instead of playing at the abominable vfl level with that embarrassing coburg team.
I don't believe our drafting has been poor at all under Hardwick. Whether you attribute that to Dimma or our recruiting team or both is hard to discern exactly but there is not denying we have drafted and traded far better recently than for decades. Much of the reason for our onfield improvement this year is our player development. It has finally become a priority for the club. Money has been invested in staff and coaches whose primary focus is educating the players. In fact even though Dimma was never seen as a experienced game day tactician such as Chocco Williams, Laidley etc he was well known as an excellent teacher. Many players have stepped up in his reign including Jack, Vickery, Rance, Grimes, Morris, Grigg, Houli etc etc. They have all had their ups and downs but all of them have definitely developed and are better players.
Hardwick would not fear for his job. He knows he has the full backing of the CEO, admin and club. He has a contract. He knows he is still on track with the squad. Is he disappointed with the last 3 weeks -of course, we all are. I like to see him bleed and hurt. I like to see the players upset over the loses too. What I like even more is the attitude I hear coming from the club now - 'We will not put players away for operation, we will fight out the season'. What that tells me is that we are not giving up on our goal and not surrendering on our aim - we changing our mindset as a playing list and club. Developing a 'Winning Culture' you might say :thumbsup
Arnot has been injured and Elton too slight/inexperienced. Both will more chances in the last few weeks as will Helbig.
Our drafting and trading this year is again crucial - we have specific tall targets for trade week and luckily midfielders are easier to find than talls in the draft. I feel confident we will be there next year....with Dimma at the helm ;D
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Jack, Vickery, Rance, Grimes, Morris, Grigg, Houli etc etc. They have all had their ups and downs but all of them have definitely developed and are better players.
Jack and Vickery were before Hardwick's time. They have had years to develop. One average season from Vickery last year, he was very poor this year and Jack has gone backwards is hardly development. Grimes was preseason draft. Ready made player. Morris, Grigg, Houli, Maric all ready made players and trades or freebies. They were developed elsewhere.
Where is the internal development.
Lets look at the 2009 draft. Martin, Griffiths, Astbury, Dea, Taylor, Webberley, Nason, Nahas, Browne, Grimes, Hicks, Contin, Roberts, Westhoff, Polak, O'Reilly.
Out of that whole list, the only players to have contributed regularly are Nahas and Martin. Nahas was a ready made reserves player that we rookied for nothing and has obvious deficiencies. Martin, we decided to crucify him and the team for sleeping in. The rest have played bugger all football and apart from Grimes who is injury prone, you would struggle to suggest any of the others have made it. At least 10 of those 16 players are gone or going. This is only 3 years down the track. How much worse will it be a year or two from now.
Lets not kid ourselves that we develop our own.
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Grimes was preseason draft. Ready made player.
Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?
We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"
Sorry if I've missed read your posts
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Grimes was preseason draft. Ready made player.
Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?
We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"
Sorry if I've missed read your posts
Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it. It was poorly worded.
What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players. So you would have expected a ready made player there.
You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries. But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.
Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery. They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.
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We ave the best spuds going around. A good dose of metamucil will see the crap expended at years end
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everyone wants to point the blame when it actual FACT
we arent quite good enough, JUST YET. :cheers
.
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everyone wants to point the blame when it actual FACT
we arent quite good enough, JUST YET. :cheers
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yep
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Its slim picking because the drafting has been bad. Not just going back to the Wallace and Frawley era's. But under Hardwick as well.
36 draft picks and only a handful are contributing.
What compounds the poor drafting is poor player development. Our players go backwards.
We should be playing the kids but I reckon we won't because five more losses and Hardwick might get the axe.
Elton and Arnot should get plenty of game time. Even if they don't perform, at least you will get an indication of what they are capable of at the elite level. At least they will get some experience instead of playing at the abominable vfl level with that embarrassing coburg team.
36 draft picks your kidding right. i count 15 nd picks. gotta ask just how much of a contribution did you expect from 1st 2nd and 3rd yr players. and it seems most of em are no good after all drafting has been bad. dont you think it just a little early to be making a call on players who have had such a short time.
so 15 nd picks 3 psd picks plus trades and rookies.
the expectations of some are unbelievable. your focusing on the wrong crop of kids if your looking for significant contributions.
i know lets see what your expectations really are.
what percentage of rookie picks do you expect to make it. what percentage of psd do you expect to make it.
what percenatage of of nd picks do you expect to make it after the 3rd round. seems to me you expect every single one to make it.
lets see players taken in the first 3 rnds since hardwick. i say first 3 rounds because i suppose you can expect some sort of game time with most of these picks.
martin - is he making a contribution for ya.hes been great and his improvement will come when he builds a moter it takes time.
griffiths - has been injury ravaged shows a bit when hes actually not injured i suppose we blame em for the injuries as well. me i prefered bastinac but a bit early to call griffiths a mistake.
astbury - see griffiths.
dea - going alright in my books for a pick in the 40s and was reasonably new to the game.
conca - a second yr player whos done more than most taken in that draft. unbelievable that his contribution is not big enough for you.so you prefered heppell or caddy so did i but i cant knock concas contribution to date.
batchelor - again hes been great for a second yr player. yep he makes mistakes and has a bit of work to do but what 2nd yr player doesnt.
helbig - managed what 9 games last yr. for a skinny undersized first yr player was a great effort for where he was taken. has been injured nearly all this yr hard to make a contribution when injured.
macdonald - yep disappointing outcome .
ellis - every game so far with reasonable output has his ups and has his downs what more did you expect.
elton - a tall kpf mate a lot of kpfs dont even get a game for 3 yrs. did you expect him to play every game and dominate. if he plays he plays for the experience.
arnot - midfielder with things to work on he lasted to 55 for a reason. vfl form has been promising.
we can only make a call of failure on one player taken in the first 3 rounds over the last 3 drafts yet recruiting has been bad. simply put it is way too early to call.
mature players taken in trade psd and nd
houi - has made a reasonable contribution has his limitations. what did he cost again. oh a psd pick. well worth it dont ya think.
grigg - his run and spread has been outstanding like houli he has limitations in other areas. did he cost much is he an upgrade on players we have cut.
derickx - has not worked out but what did we expect. the odds were he may fail the process we went thru to get him was excellent. 5th rnd pick oh dear its a shemozzle.
maric ivan - have proved to be an absolute steal. pick 35
a maric - rookie, a rookie big deal if he fails the whole idea with rookies is to pick lots and turn em over till you find a player. he has good skills.
morris - has proved to be a great pick up. cost virtually nothing.
webberley - again he was dominating his league when drafted has good skills by foot but is not up to afl level, the process we went thru was right
nason - could never work that one out was a poor selection.
rookies do you really want to go into and whine about what rookies have or have not made it we all know most of these picks will fail.
so you use a blanket statement proclaiming our recruiting under hardwick as bad.
from that i take it you have already written of 1st 2nd and 3rd yr players. what exactly is it you think is bad about recruiting since hardwicks been there. oh and lets again add hardwick is not responsible for recruiting that honor falls to messers jackson cameron and hartley.
what was it malthouse said, oh yes a coach lives and dies on the back of his recruiting staff is that the same malthouse your adamant we should get.
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Grimes was preseason draft. Ready made player.
Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?
We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"
Sorry if I've missed read your posts
Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it. It was poorly worded.
What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players. So you would have expected a ready made player there.
You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries. But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.
Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery. They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.
grimes 18yo o hanlon 18yo, taking 18 yr olds in the psd is tantamount to taking them at pick 100 in the nd or as a rookie that goes onto the list proper. houli a mature pick as such has been a good contributor and a very cheap pick up.
again it seems your expectations of late nd psd and rookie picks is most will make it when the opposite is actually true with very few at all clubs making it.
ive said this before about rookie. if you take 6 only one will make it they last to the rookie list because most of them have chrnic weaknesses in their games.
jusge em on the first 3 rounds and what trades they have done. anything outside of that really is a numbers game and should be judged as such.
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geez it hasnt helped been crap at this time
with these new clubs hogging all these players.
mind you we might have stuffed it up anyway.
thats how we roll isnt it :lol
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Draft Picks 2009. 16 players. www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-richmond-tigers?year=2009
10 in each of the 2010 and 2011 draft. Too early to know anything from those drafts. But the 2009 draft is 3 years on and nine have already gone. This is what we have left.
Martin. Pick 4. Have to expect to get that right.
2nd best. Nahas. He was a rookie promotion. Wallace player.
Griffiths 19. Astbury. 35. Dea 44 Grimes Preseason. Webberley. 67.
The most games any of these players have played is 22. Webberley will go.
Grimes is the only one you would be confident in but he has dodgy hammies, (brendan, call your brother michael rather than wasting our money on animal blood half way around the world). The other three have not proven their worth.
When you have 3 players out of 16 playing and two of those were virtual certainties, you might have a better explanation of our depth without just blaming the previous coaches.
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Draft Picks 2009. 16 players. www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-richmond-tigers?year=2009
10 in each of the 2010 and 2011 draft. Too early to know anything from those drafts. But the 2009 draft is 3 years on and nine have already gone. This is what we have left.
Martin. Pick 4. Have to expect to get that right.
2nd best. Nahas. He was a rookie promotion. Wallace player.
Griffiths 19. Astbury. 35. Dea 44 Grimes Preseason. Webberley. 67.
The most games any of these players have played is 22. Webberley will go.
Grimes is the only one you would be confident in but he has dodgy hammies, (brendan, call your brother michael rather than wasting our money on animal blood half way around the world). The other three have not proven their worth.
When you have 3 players out of 16 playing and two of those were virtual certainties, you might have a better explanation of our depth without just blaming the previous coaches.
so i see your expectations are rookie psd and late nd picks should make it. i see you also include rookie promotions that were not hardwick picks in a draft as well as the rookies.
so your moaning about 6 rookie picks not making it lol, and two late nd picks. as i keep on telling you go look at the strike rate with these picks at every other club its a numbers game.
i have actually argued with a lot of these picks you are better od targeting mature state league players.
if you took the time to look our recruiting in the main over the kast 3yrs has been no better or worse than any other club with late nd psd and rookie picks.how hard is that to grasp.
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Grimes was preseason draft. Ready made player.
Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?
We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"
Sorry if I've missed read your posts
Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it. It was poorly worded.
What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players. So you would have expected a ready made player there.
You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries. But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.
Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery. They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.
I get what you mean by traditionally used on ready made players. But it is also used on kid's that are over looked in the draft and its a bit unfair to expect more from Grimes because he was taken in the national draft
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Grimes was preseason draft. Ready made player.
Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?
We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"
Sorry if I've missed read your posts
Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it. It was poorly worded.
What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players. So you would have expected a ready made player there.
You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries. But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.
Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery. They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.
I get what you mean by traditionally used on ready made players. But it is also used on kid's that are over looked in the draft and its a bit unfair to expect more from Grimes because he was taken in the national draft
I totally agree. Grimes was a good draft pick, especially for preseason draft. Are his injuries bad luck or poor player management?
Outside of our top 4 draft picks, we pretty much had a 0 percent success rate of Hardwick's kids in 2009. Its been three years and three of those havent proven that they are good enough yet. Its an issue. Some supporters want to blame past coaches for everything. It doesn't solve what is happening right under their noses.
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Grimes was preseason draft. Ready made player.
Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?
We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"
Sorry if I've missed read your posts
Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it. It was poorly worded.
What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players. So you would have expected a ready made player there.
You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries. But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.
Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery. They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.
I get what you mean by traditionally used on ready made players. But it is also used on kid's that are over looked in the draft and its a bit unfair to expect more from Grimes because he was taken in the national draft
I totally agree. Grimes was a good draft pick, especially for preseason draft. Are his injuries bad luck or poor player management?
Outside of our top 4 draft picks, we pretty much had a 0 percent success rate of Hardwick's kids in 2009. Its been three years and three of those havent proven that they are good enough yet. Its an issue. Some supporters want to blame past coaches for everything. It doesn't solve what is happening right under their noses.
Even the 4 are giving lenience. Martin and probally Griff are good, Astbry granted his injured now and was very young at the time but I never really rated him. And Dea is just lucky to be in the side, should be moved out in next couple years
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Grimes was preseason draft. Ready made player.
Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?
We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"
Sorry if I've missed read your posts
Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it. It was poorly worded.
What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players. So you would have expected a ready made player there.
You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries. But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.
Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery. They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.
I get what you mean by traditionally used on ready made players. But it is also used on kid's that are over looked in the draft and its a bit unfair to expect more from Grimes because he was taken in the national draft
I totally agree. Grimes was a good draft pick, especially for preseason draft. Are his injuries bad luck or poor player management?
Outside of our top 4 draft picks, we pretty much had a 0 percent success rate of Hardwick's kids in 2009. Its been three years and three of those havent proven that they are good enough yet. Its an issue. Some supporters want to blame past coaches for everything. It doesn't solve what is happening right under their noses.
na i think most of us are saying you dont judge players on their first 2 or 3 seasons. thats especially true for talls or any player that is very skinny when drafted. plain old common senses and history tells us all they take time not just at richmond but at all clubs. i dont see anyone blaming pat coaches for picks taken since 09 of course the likes of miller and jackson have coppd it because of performances prior to 09.
history also tells us that there is not a great success rate with picks after the 3rd round, again that applies to all clubs. gp look for yourself.
the number of genuine mids taken in 09 10 and 11 is just 5 this is a list management problem not a recruitment problem.i say this because its more likely to be mids who can make an immediate impact in the first two or three seasons. of those mids 3 have been more than good for the amount of time they have been in the system. martin, conca, and ellis.
helbig has been injured and as a latish pick was never expected to get a lot of games was he. arnot at 55 is the other and most realistic people would not be too concerned that he hasnt got a game to date.
itds pretty easy to make blanket statements and criticise its easy to point the finger.
2011 nd picks first yr players what are realistic expectations.
ellis - played every game with decent output thats a big pass imo.
elton - 196cm kpp undersized. a realistic expectation would be he spends at least 2 yrs at coburg lbuilding up his body aand learning to cope against men any game he got this yr or next yr would be more for the experience than him being ready.
arnot - well ive already mentioned him above pick 55 in a compromised draft wtf do people expect.
2010 nd picks
conca - yes hes not heppell but his contribution has been very good for a second yr player.
batchelor - see conca.
helbig. - foe a skinny 3rd round pick he exceeded expectations in his first yr i suppose hes a failure to some because he hasnt played thru injuryu in yr 2 lol.
macdonald - was a risk and it didnt work out. we move on. do we slash our wrists over pick 51.
derickx - a mature recruit at pick 63 imo probably a rookie pick but still 63 is cheap.he dominated at claremont and in the wafl high up finishes in the b&fs he does have a lot of good attributes to play at afl level was well worth taking the punt with such a cheap pick. we may not have got the player but the process we went thru was spot on.
2009
martin - say no more we got this pick right. he has a bit of work to do still though.
griffiths - most argued he was the most talented big man available and should have been a top 5 pick bar his shoulder. he was not my cup of tea as i rated 3 or 4 others higher than him and had concerns about his shoulder. with injury in mind what was a realistic expectation of this bloke. ito put it in perspective a damn lot of talls dont even play a game till their 3rd yr. how we canm call this a good or bad pick is beyond me time will determine that.
astbury - pick 35 in a lot of ways resembles griffiths with injury after yr one he was tracking way in front of schedule. injuries since have stopped his progress in its tracks. do we blame the recruiters for the injuries hes copped, some here would it seems.
dea - basketball background new to the game and imo when considering this hes where he needs to be. realitically hes slightly in front of expectations imo.
big upside still to this kid. personally i hhad a few talls pencilled in at this pick but how anyone can call this pick a failure to this point in time is mindboggling again time will tell.
taylor - was easily the most talented kid left in the draft. 4th rnd pick still the risk with his background was there for all to see. we took the risk and lost. with a 4th rounder it as not a huge gamble. dont have a problem in taking him and the risk on, but i dont think we learned from the mistake and made the same one again that i have a problem with.
webberley - imo we needed talls genuine mids and just bigger bodies and argued about it at the time. but webberley ticked a lot of boxes we talk about processes well we went thru a good one with this bloke. we failed with pick 67 again so many late picks fail at all clubs.
nason - well he fit the kicking mantrsa and little else was a very poor selection imo even with pick 71.
when looking at the whole picture recruiting in 09 10 11 has not been that bad it certainly is way too early to make a call on any of those drafts.
finally i have to reiterate again HARDWICK IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR RECRUITING. STOP KIDDING YOUR SELVES.
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Coach is on the money Hardwick has made a lot bad draft blunders and he's had 3 goes I'm still yet to see any light at the end of the tunnel
Get mick quick
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all hail Mick, the messiah.
:bow :bow :bow
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Bloody hell Roy, why do you keep saying "Coach is right" followed up with a whack at someone. :lol I haven't even said the things you're bagging the club for ;D
Still love you though. Am coming over on sunday for tabouli. :thumbsup
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all hail Mick, the messiah.
:bow :bow :bow
yep MM is gonna save us.
geez this club was pining after
old Shady sheedy for the best part
of 30 years.
so im in lets get MM :bow :bow :bow
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You know damn well coach that rfc has recruited poorly h
Under the Fale -Halfwit regime
People on these sites refuse to speak the truth they hide behind political correctness and continue to put their faith into a failing system
This website is run by rfc propaganda and we all know that equals under achievement
I have thirty years of evidence
The rfc sadly has only Trent Cotchin to hang their hats on
When you can't beat the GCS two years running the club is not progressing
It's full of hacks and poor reality tv stars a bit like the who try to moderate on this website
The rfc cannot hide anymore the runs are not on the board and have been continuously on display
It's an indisciplined club from the top and the results shine onto the field
MM would cut out this immature thieving and unprofessional galavanting that we put up year in year out
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all hail Mick, the messiah
:bow :bow :bow
he'll even give us next weeks lotto numbers
:bow :bow :bow
eliminate child poverty
:bow :bow :bow
and bring world peace
:bow :bow :bow
actually RFC is not worthy of the great man
:bow :bow :bow
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na i think most of us are saying you dont judge players on their first 2 or 3 seasons. thats especially true for talls or any player that is very skinny when drafted. plain old common senses and history tells us all they take time not just at richmond but at all clubs. i dont see anyone blaming pat coaches for picks taken since 09 of course the likes of miller and jackson have coppd it because of performances prior to 09.
history also tells us that there is not a great success rate with picks after the 3rd round, again that applies to all clubs. gp look for yourself.
Ok Claw, I looked up hawks drafting of late picks in the last 3 years.
Hawthorn
2009 draft:
Stratton round 3, pick 46
Suckling round 5, pick 70
2010 draft:
Puopolo round 4, pick 66
2011 draft:
Breust, round 4, pick 77
Looks like they've done ok.
-
100% strike rate is pretty good
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all hail Mick, the messiah
:bow :bow :bow
he'll even give us next weeks lotto numbers
:bow :bow :bow
eliminate child poverty
:bow :bow :bow
and bring world peace
:bow :bow :bow
actually RFC is not worthy of the great man
:bow :bow :bow
Would you take Malthouse as coach if he wanted to come here?
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Carlton
2009 draft:
Jacobs, round 5, pick 72
Joseph, round 6, pick 83
Casbolt, rookie
Touy, rookie
2010 draft:
Duigan, round 4, pick 70
Gartlett, round 5, pick 85
Ellard, round 6, pick 99
Curnow, rookie
2011 draft:
Casblot, rookie
Not bad Claw what do you reckon?
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You know damn well coach that rfc has recruited poorly h
Under the Fale -Halfwit regime
People on these sites refuse to speak the truth they hide behind political correctness and continue to put their faith into a failing system
This website is run by rfc propaganda and we all know that equals under achievement
I have thirty years of evidence
The rfc sadly has only Trent Cotchin to hang their hats on
When you can't beat the GCS two years running the club is not progressing
It's full of hacks and poor reality tv stars a bit like the who try to moderate on this website
The rfc cannot hide anymore the runs are not on the board and have been continuously on display
It's an indisciplined club from the top and the results shine onto the field
MM would cut out this immature thieving and unprofessional galavanting that we put up year in year out
I wish opposition supporters would stop trolling this forum :huh3 :help
-
We need Tom Hafey back.
-
We need Tom Hafey back.
:thumbsup
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You know damn well coach that rfc has recruited poorly h
Under the Fale -Halfwit regime
People on these sites refuse to speak the truth they hide behind political correctness and continue to put their faith into a failing system
This website is run by rfc propaganda and we all know that equals under achievement
I have thirty years of evidence
The rfc sadly has only Trent Cotchin to hang their hats on
When you can't beat the GCS two years running the club is not progressing
It's full of hacks and poor reality tv stars a bit like the who try to moderate on this website
The rfc cannot hide anymore the runs are not on the board and have been continuously on display
It's an indisciplined club from the top and the results shine onto the field
MM would cut out this immature thieving and unprofessional galavanting that we put up year in year out
I wish opposition supporters would stop trolling this forum :huh3 :help
All he's doing is peddling some easy and superficial answers.
Remember as rfctigers 05 has mentioned
"This website is run by rfc propaganda and we all know that equals under achievement"
Maybe she should start her own website and tell the world what he seems to know but we don't.
Rebuild what rebuild we just had different terms for it
in 1983 it was bidding wars with Collingwood
in 1990 it was Save Our Skins
in 2003 it was the top ups we had to have under Miller
in 2012 its the DimSim and Fail happy hour
All hail the evidence of the last 30 years all hail the current regime.
Mick Malthouse has all the coaching answers.
Neil Balme is the list accumulator.
We'll get Graeme Richmond out of the cryogenic machine and Alan Schwab away from the red light districts of interstate cities.
We'll use the FTF to gain the DNA of Sheeds Hart KB Michael Greene Stewart Clay Barrott Balme Bourke and pretty much the rest of the 73/74 back to back side and we'll create stem cells and create humans from that DNA and raise them to play decent footy so we can be fighting ready by the 2032 season. That is our one an chance.
Oh we'll bring Clay Samson to the club too as he is a premiership player also that should keep the rank and file happy and ensure the riff raff that all we do at the club involves premiership people and not people from failed regimes like Dim Sim who really was never involved in 3 flags not successful. Benny Fail who was involved in a crap era but even though he is a successful educated man nope he aint the answer either.
I'm sold I reckon we need to board the club give the FTF back to the fans who donated it and shut up shop. We have a % of 106 compared to 86 last year and 72 the year before but we lost to GC 17 twice so we are crap the statistics don't lie.
We beat Hawthorn and Sydney but Hawthorn lost last night and we lost to Northern Bullants last week sack the coach and the board.
We are crap and until someone comes with a magic potion, formula or recipe that can be turn us from duds one year to Premiership wInners of back to back to back flags in 3 and then we have a sprinking of about four more flags in the next 10 years with a couple of near misses I am neither inclined to have the patience nor the committment to follow this garbage organisation again.
Rfctigers05 you are so so right bloke. :lol :rollin :lol
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We continue to wee up the same wall
It's administration from the top who refuse to be accountable for failure but they signed up Hardwick again and have seen his poor recruiting just look at the duds playing for Coburg today
David Astbury couldn't stand up if he had four legs
Darrou Verrier have tails bigger than an Italian grandmother
Maric and miller are a waste of oxygen let alone space etc etc
-
all hail Mick, the messiah
:bow :bow :bow
he'll even give us next weeks lotto numbers
:bow :bow :bow
eliminate child poverty
:bow :bow :bow
and bring world peace
:bow :bow :bow
actually RFC is not worthy of the great man
:bow :bow :bow
Would you take Malthouse as coach if he wanted to come here?
if we were looking for a new coach and he wanted in, yes, as much as i dislike the turd.
As a coach though, he will not solve all the problems at the club, from the top down, perceived or real. Only someone clinically insane could think that a coach could do that
Nor do go for this messiah complex that people seem to get, first for sheedy, now for mick.
-
all hail Mick, the messiah
:bow :bow :bow
he'll even give us next weeks lotto numbers
:bow :bow :bow
eliminate child poverty
:bow :bow :bow
and bring world peace
:bow :bow :bow
actually RFC is not worthy of the great man
:bow :bow :bow
Would you take Malthouse as coach if he wanted to come here?
if we were looking for a new coach and he wanted in, yes, as much as i dislike the turd.
As a coach though, he will not solve all the problems at the club, from the top down, perceived or real. Only someone clinically insane could think that a coach could do that
Nor do go for this messiah complex that people seem to get, first for sheedy, now for mick.
As least we will get a respit from jackstars crap for a bit if MM gets on board
-
I think you may be dreaming on that one chucky
-
na i think most of us are saying you dont judge players on their first 2 or 3 seasons. thats especially true for talls or any player that is very skinny when drafted. plain old common senses and history tells us all they take time not just at richmond but at all clubs. i dont see anyone blaming pat coaches for picks taken since 09 of course the likes of miller and jackson have coppd it because of performances prior to 09.
history also tells us that there is not a great success rate with picks after the 3rd round, again that applies to all clubs. gp look for yourself.
Ok Claw, I looked up hawks drafting of late picks in the last 3 years.
Hawthorn
2009 draft:
Stratton round 3, pick 46
Suckling round 5, pick 70
2010 draft:
Puopolo round 4, pick 66
2011 draft:
Breust, round 4, pick 77
Looks like they've done ok.
all clubs have had the odd good pick
.
lets see i cant be bothered doing late nd and psd as well seeing as how you include rookies its easier to tally up players taken in the rookie draft. so will just do rookie picks.
of the nearly 1000 rookie picks used how many have been successes. thats right close to nearly 1000 players have been taken in the rookie draft and only about 1 in 6 would be deemed successes depending on what you would call a successful pick..
most of those succesful rookies taken would be mature rookies with the vast majority of successes being nothing more than good foot soldiers.
so again i ask what should our expectations be with these picks. even if you set a generous and easy to achieve criteria for a successful pick the hit miss ratio would remain very high.
as stated it would be a similar thing with late nd picks and psd picks used on kids. high hit miss ratio with nothing more in the main than good footsoldiers with the odd gem. obviously the earlier the pick becomes the higher the success rate that would be pretty clear to just about anyone.
the question is what expectations do we place on these picks. seems you think theres a very high success rate with them and every late pick and rookie pick we use should be successful.
just a final comment. id say the best we have done any yr with late nd picks is 03 with jackson 53, tuck 71, and raines 73. we missed with morrison 64, hartigan 70, fletcher 79, and archibald 89. we did rookie kelvin moore that yr as well.
ben stratton is a third round pick in 09. they missed with all of their nd picks after the third round in 09. pretty sure i said after the first 3 rounds.
if you took the time have a proper look at hawthorn you will probably find they are doing marginally better than most teams when it comes to hit miss ratio with late nd psd and rookie picks. but its still a high overall hit miss ratio.
im sorry if you have high expectations with these types of picks thats your problem not mine or the clubs. these picks are a numbers game where you take heaps and turn em over until you find a decent one. it really is that simple and it really is pointless slashing your wrists over failed picks when taken so late.
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na i think most of us are saying you dont judge players on their first 2 or 3 seasons. thats especially true for talls or any player that is very skinny when drafted. plain old common senses and history tells us all they take time not just at richmond but at all clubs. i dont see anyone blaming pat coaches for picks taken since 09 of course the likes of miller and jackson have coppd it because of performances prior to 09.
history also tells us that there is not a great success rate with picks after the 3rd round, again that applies to all clubs. gp look for yourself.
Ok Claw, I looked up hawks drafting of late picks in the last 3 years.
Hawthorn
2009 draft:
Stratton round 3, pick 46
Suckling round 5, pick 70
2010 draft:
Puopolo round 4, pick 66
2011 draft:
Breust, round 4, pick 77
Looks like they've done ok.
all clubs have had the odd good pick
.
lets see i cant be bothered doing late nd and psd as well seeing as how you include rookies its easier to tally up players taken in the rookie draft. so will just do rookie picks.
of the nearly 1000 rookie picks used how many have been successes. thats right close to nearly 1000 players have been taken in the rookie draft and only about 1 in 6 would be deemed successes depending on what you would call a successful pick..
most of those succesful rookies taken would be mature rookies with the vast majority of successes being nothing more than good foot soldiers.
so again i ask what should our expectations be with these picks. even if you set a generous and easy to achieve criteria for a successful pick the hit miss ratio would remain very high.
as stated it would be a similar thing with late nd picks and psd picks used on kids. high hit miss ratio with nothing more in the main than good footsoldiers with the odd gem. obviously the earlier the pick becomes the higher the success rate that would be pretty clear to just about anyone.
the question is what expectations do we place on these picks. seems you think theres a very high success rate with them and every late pick and rookie pick we use should be successful.
just a final comment. id say the best we have done any yr with late nd picks is 03 with jackson 53, tuck 71, and raines 73. we missed with morrison 64, hartigan 70, fletcher 79, and archibald 89. we did rookie kelvin moore that yr as well.
ben stratton is a third round pick in 09. they missed with all of their nd picks after the third round in 09. pretty sure i said after the first 3 rounds.
if you took the time have a proper look at hawthorn you will probably find they are doing marginally better than most teams when it comes to hit miss ratio with late nd psd and rookie picks. but its still a high overall hit miss ratio.
im sorry if you have high expectations with these types of picks thats your problem not mine or the clubs. these picks are a numbers game where you take heaps and turn em over until you find a decent one. it really is that simple and it really is pointless slashing your wrists over failed picks when taken so late.
Your kidding right?
After waffling on You asked us to look up late picks in the draft. So I looked up 2 teams in hawthorn and Carlton and gave you a list of picks after round 3. So far those picks looked to be right on the money.
So all you give me is another page of waffle and that's your answer?
Pathetic!
The truth is that some clubs looked to have done a good job with recruiting players even late in the draft and rookies. But some clubs are just still poo.
Also some clubs can develop players that slot right in the senior team when required and some clubs are useless at development.
Our club has a history of mediocrity and it's a disease in the club and it needs to be dealt with.
To start with they can maybe try and poach the best recruiter and best development team.
Why not?
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is there a reason you only list those that you perceive to be a success rather than all picks so there is some sort of perspective?
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is there a reason you only list those that you perceive to be a success rather than all picks so there is some sort of perspective?
Those guys have played matches and done reasonably well.
......And it looks better. ;D
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is there a reason you only list those that you perceive to be a success rather than all picks so there is some sort of perspective?
I think Mr T has taken a randomised sample of his choice for his research project, Al.
An analogy i like to use on Rookie/ late picks is the horse racing/ greyhound industry. There are so many horses/ greyhounds out there being trained for the track that ony a very small percentage actually get to a race.
Footballers are the same, therefore i think it is a success that a rookie even plays a senior AFL game.
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And yes .we beat Brisbane last night
Honestly who really cares if we finish 9th or 12th is irrelevant .
Wouldn't give this year a pass
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And yes .we beat Brisbane last night
Honestly who really cares if we finish 9th or 12th is irrelevant .
Wouldn't give this year a pass
Of course you wouldn't.
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na i think most of us are saying you dont judge players on their first 2 or 3 seasons. thats especially true for talls or any player that is very skinny when drafted. plain old common senses and history tells us all they take time not just at richmond but at all clubs. i dont see anyone blaming pat coaches for picks taken since 09 of course the likes of miller and jackson have coppd it because of performances prior to 09.
history also tells us that there is not a great success rate with picks after the 3rd round, again that applies to all clubs. gp look for yourself.
Ok Claw, I looked up hawks drafting of late picks in the last 3 years.
Hawthorn
2009 draft:
Stratton round 3, pick 46
Suckling round 5, pick 70
2010 draft:
Puopolo round 4, pick 66
2011 draft:
Breust, round 4, pick 77
Looks like they've done ok.
all clubs have had the odd good pick
.
lets see i cant be bothered doing late nd and psd as well seeing as how you include rookies its easier to tally up players taken in the rookie draft. so will just do rookie picks.
of the nearly 1000 rookie picks used how many have been successes. thats right close to nearly 1000 players have been taken in the rookie draft and only about 1 in 6 would be deemed successes depending on what you would call a successful pick..
most of those succesful rookies taken would be mature rookies with the vast majority of successes being nothing more than good foot soldiers.
so again i ask what should our expectations be with these picks. even if you set a generous and easy to achieve criteria for a successful pick the hit miss ratio would remain very high.
as stated it would be a similar thing with late nd picks and psd picks used on kids. high hit miss ratio with nothing more in the main than good footsoldiers with the odd gem. obviously the earlier the pick becomes the higher the success rate that would be pretty clear to just about anyone.
the question is what expectations do we place on these picks. seems you think theres a very high success rate with them and every late pick and rookie pick we use should be successful.
just a final comment. id say the best we have done any yr with late nd picks is 03 with jackson 53, tuck 71, and raines 73. we missed with morrison 64, hartigan 70, fletcher 79, and archibald 89. we did rookie kelvin moore that yr as well.
ben stratton is a third round pick in 09. they missed with all of their nd picks after the third round in 09. pretty sure i said after the first 3 rounds.
if you took the time have a proper look at hawthorn you will probably find they are doing marginally better than most teams when it comes to hit miss ratio with late nd psd and rookie picks. but its still a high overall hit miss ratio.
im sorry if you have high expectations with these types of picks thats your problem not mine or the clubs. these picks are a numbers game where you take heaps and turn em over until you find a decent one. it really is that simple and it really is pointless slashing your wrists over failed picks when taken so late.
Your kidding right?
After waffling on You asked us to look up late picks in the draft. So I looked up 2 teams in hawthorn and Carlton and gave you a list of picks after round 3. So far those picks looked to be right on the money.
So all you give me is another page of waffle and that's your answer?
Pathetic!
The truth is that some clubs looked to have done a good job with recruiting players even late in the draft and rookies. But some clubs are just still poo.
Also some clubs can develop players that slot right in the senior team when required and some clubs are useless at development.
Our club has a history of mediocrity and it's a disease in the club and it needs to be dealt with.
To start with they can maybe try and poach the best recruiter and best development team.
Why not?
its prety simple for nearly all of us but some dont have the intelligence to grasp a simple fact. what part of 1 in 6 did you not understand pretty sure anyone with just a bit of common sense took that to mean the whole not a tiddly piddly bit that suits. either get real stop being diingenuous or stuff off i dont have the inclination to stuff around with dim wits.
so hawthorn have used 20odd nd picks after the third rnd, psd and rookie picks from 2009 onwards. you come up with how many players? did i hear you say 3 players bruest, puopolo, and suckling. now that would be what ratio. what do you think just roughly now. can i hear you say 1 in 6.
now be honest with yourself and your fellow posters and tell us how many of the 1000 odd rookies taken would be deemed succesful picks. the simple truth that a 10 yr old could grasp is the vast majority of picks are failures yet you expect these picks when we use them to be succesful every time we use them.
you have backed yourself into a corner and your not big enough to admit your wrong. most of us are happy to learn as we go and acknowledge we get some things wrong. others are so small minded and shallow well they never get a thing wrong and arent man enough to admit when they are wrong.
you may want to argue for arguments sake me i dont have time for it and have better things to do. come and see me when you can grasp a few things just a bit better we may be able to have a decent conversation then.
finally again i ask of the 1000 odd rookie picks how many have been succesful seems you have neither the intelligence to work it out or the balls to tell us. cant be seen to be wrong now can we.
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And yes .we beat Brisbane last night
Honestly who really cares if we finish 9th or 12th is irrelevant .
Wouldn't give this year a pass
Of course you wouldn't.
Well you tell me why you would give us pass.as I cannot see any reason
Until you win more games than you lose.would think its a failure
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And yes .we beat Brisbane last night
Honestly who really cares if we finish 9th or 12th is irrelevant .
Wouldn't give this year a pass
Of course you wouldn't.
Well you tell me why you would give us pass.as I cannot see any reason
Until you win more games than you lose.would think its a failure
Maybey because this season has been our best season in the past 5 years.....that's a start!
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Hawks recent late pick
Adam Patterson was not mentioned
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And yes .we beat Brisbane last night
Honestly who really cares if we finish 9th or 12th is irrelevant .
Wouldn't give this year a pass
Of course you wouldn't.
Well you tell me why you would give us pass.as I cannot see any reason
Until you win more games than you lose.would think its a failure
Because every indicator that I consider relevant says so. We have stopped the beltings, we have become ultra competitive in every single game, we still have one of the youngest lists in the competition, we have won more games, we have a much better percentage, we have unearthed some more decent kids, we have added another year's experience, and most of all - because I'm not that stupid, naive, irrational or emotionally shallow to demand or expect instant success from the position we came from. That enough for you Jack?
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And Newman is still our captain :-*
Progress forward2013 the only way is up
-
And yes .we beat Brisbane last night
Honestly who really cares if we finish 9th or 12th is irrelevant .
Wouldn't give this year a pass
Of course you wouldn't.
Well you tell me why you would give us pass.as I cannot see any reason
Until you win more games than you lose.would think its a failure
Because every indicator that I consider relevant says so. We have stopped the beltings, we have become ultra competitive in every single game, we still have one of the youngest lists in the competition, we have won more games, we have a much better percentage, we have unearthed some more decent kids, we have added another year's experience, and most of all - because I'm not that stupid, naive, irrational or emotionally shallow to demand or expect instant success from the position we came from. That enough for you Jack?
its unbelievable isnt some just cant see past their insipid agendas
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Our coach even told you
Quote " clearly we are not good enough"
that's what you get after three years of tinkering
A public confession and the gullible continue to patch up the holes with band aids
I don't have an agenda I just quote 30 years of evidence that the club has provided
Forget the bleeding heart mentality and demand success
I need runs on the board not honorable losses and apologetic cover ups
Ps keep drinking merlot and continue barking the same tune
The crows were below us last year
The WCE two years ago
Hawthorn seven yrs ago
Etc etc
Where are we pin balling from 9 to 18 th
Look at the facts not your childhood dreams
-
And yes .we beat Brisbane last night
Honestly who really cares if we finish 9th or 12th is irrelevant .
Wouldn't give this year a pass
Of course you wouldn't.
Well you tell me why you would give us pass.as I cannot see any reason
Until you win more games than you lose.would think its a failure
Because every indicator that I consider relevant says so. We have stopped the beltings, we have become ultra competitive in every single game, we still have one of the youngest lists in the competition, we have won more games, we have a much better percentage, we have unearthed some more decent kids, we have added another year's experience, and most of all - because I'm not that stupid, naive, irrational or emotionally shallow to demand or expect instant success from the position we came from. That enough for you Jack?
Jokestar got smoked! :thumbsup