"We're not good enough": Hardwick

[unplugged]

Its slim picking because the drafting has been bad.  Not just going back to the Wallace and Frawley era's.  But under Hardwick as well.
36 draft picks and only a handful are contributing.

What compounds the poor drafting is poor player development.  Our players go backwards.

We should be playing the kids but I reckon we won't because five more losses and Hardwick might get the axe. 

Elton and Arnot should get plenty of game time.  Even if they don't perform, at least you will get an indication of what they are capable of at the elite level.  At least they will get some experience instead of playing at the abominable vfl level with that embarrassing coburg team. 

[Stripes]

What compounds the poor drafting is poor player development.  Our players go backwards.

We should be playing the kids but I reckon we won't because five more losses and Hardwick might get the axe. 

Elton and Arnot should get plenty of game time.  Even if they don't perform, at least you will get an indication of what they are capable of at the elite level.  At least they will get some experience instead of playing at the abominable vfl level with that embarrassing coburg team.

I don't believe our drafting has been poor at all under Hardwick. Whether you attribute that to Dimma or our recruiting team or both is hard to discern exactly but there is not denying we have drafted and traded far better recently than for decades. Much of the reason for our onfield improvement this year is our player development. It has finally become a priority for the club. Money has been invested in staff and coaches whose primary focus is educating the players. In fact even though Dimma was never seen as a experienced game day tactician such as Chocco Williams, Laidley etc he was well known as an excellent teacher. Many players have stepped up in his reign including Jack, Vickery, Rance, Grimes, Morris, Grigg, Houli etc etc. They have all had their ups and downs but all of them have definitely developed and are better players.

Hardwick would not fear for his job. He knows he has the full backing of the CEO, admin and club. He has a contract. He knows he is still on track with the squad. Is he disappointed with the last 3 weeks -of course, we all are. I like to see him bleed and hurt. I like to see the players upset over the loses too. What I like even more is the attitude I hear coming from the club now - 'We will not put players away for operation, we will fight out the season'. What that tells me is that we are not giving up on our goal and not surrendering on our aim - we changing our mindset as a playing list and club. Developing a 'Winning Culture' you might say 

Arnot has been injured and Elton too slight/inexperienced. Both will more chances in the last few weeks as will Helbig.

Our drafting and trading this year is again crucial - we have specific tall targets for trade week and luckily midfielders are easier to find than talls in the draft. I feel confident we will be there next year....with Dimma at the helm 

[unplugged]

Jack, Vickery, Rance, Grimes, Morris, Grigg, Houli etc etc. They have all had their ups and downs but all of them have definitely developed and are better players.

Jack and Vickery were before Hardwick's time.  They have had years to develop.  One average season from Vickery last year, he was very poor this year and Jack has gone backwards is hardly development.  Grimes was preseason draft.  Ready made player.  Morris, Grigg, Houli, Maric all ready made players and trades or freebies.  They were developed elsewhere.

Where is the internal development.

Lets look at the 2009 draft.  Martin, Griffiths, Astbury, Dea, Taylor, Webberley, Nason, Nahas, Browne, Grimes, Hicks, Contin, Roberts, Westhoff, Polak, O'Reilly.

Out of that whole list, the only players to have contributed regularly are Nahas and Martin.  Nahas was a ready made reserves player that we rookied for nothing and has obvious deficiencies.   Martin, we decided to crucify him and the team for sleeping in. The rest have played bugger all football and apart from Grimes who is injury prone, you would struggle to suggest any of the others have made it.  At least 10 of those 16 players are gone or going.  This is only 3 years down the track.  How much worse will it be a year or two from now.

Lets not kid ourselves that we develop our own.

[WilliamPowell]

Grimes was preseason draft.  Ready made player. 

Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?

We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"

Sorry if I've missed read your posts

[unplugged]

Grimes was preseason draft.  Ready made player. 

Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?

We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"

Sorry if I've missed read your posts

Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it.  It was poorly worded.

What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players.  So you would have expected a ready made player there.

You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries.  But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.

Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery.  They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.

[Tigershark]

We ave the best spuds going around.  A good dose of metamucil will see the crap expended at years end

[rogerd3]

everyone wants to point the blame when it actual FACT
we arent quite good enough, JUST YET.

.

[10 FLAGS]

everyone wants to point the blame when it actual FACT
we arent quite good enough, JUST YET.

.

yep

[the claw]

Its slim picking because the drafting has been bad.  Not just going back to the Wallace and Frawley era's.  But under Hardwick as well.
36 draft picks and only a handful are contributing.

What compounds the poor drafting is poor player development.  Our players go backwards.

We should be playing the kids but I reckon we won't because five more losses and Hardwick might get the axe. 

Elton and Arnot should get plenty of game time.  Even if they don't perform, at least you will get an indication of what they are capable of at the elite level.  At least they will get some experience instead of playing at the abominable vfl level with that embarrassing coburg team.

36 draft picks your kidding right. i count 15 nd picks.  gotta ask  just how much of a contribution did you expect from 1st 2nd and 3rd yr players. and it seems most of em are no good after all drafting has been bad. dont you think it just a little early to be making a call on players who have had such a short time.

 so 15 nd picks 3 psd picks plus trades and rookies.

the expectations of some are unbelievable. your focusing on the wrong crop of kids if your looking for significant contributions.

i know lets see what your expectations really are.
what percentage of rookie picks do you expect to make it. what percentage of psd do you expect to make it.
what percenatage of of nd picks do you expect to make it after the 3rd round. seems to me you expect every single one to make it.

lets see players taken in the first 3 rnds since hardwick. i say first 3 rounds because i suppose you can expect some sort of game time with most of these picks.
martin -  is he making a contribution for ya.hes been great and his improvement will come when he builds a moter it takes time.
griffiths - has been injury ravaged shows a bit when hes actually not injured  i suppose we blame em for the injuries as well. me i prefered bastinac but a bit early to call griffiths a mistake.
astbury - see griffiths.
dea - going alright in my books for a pick in the 40s and was reasonably new to the game.

conca - a second yr player whos done more than most taken in that draft. unbelievable that his contribution is not big enough for you.so you prefered heppell or caddy so did i but i cant knock concas contribution to date.
batchelor - again hes been great for a second yr player. yep he makes mistakes and has a bit of work to do but what 2nd yr player doesnt.
helbig - managed what 9 games last yr. for a skinny undersized first yr player was a great effort for where he was taken. has been injured nearly all this yr hard to make a contribution when injured.
macdonald - yep disappointing outcome .

ellis - every game so far with reasonable output has his ups and has his downs what more did you expect.
elton - a tall kpf mate a lot of kpfs dont even get a game for 3 yrs. did you expect him to play every game and dominate. if he plays he plays for the experience.
arnot -  midfielder with things to work on he lasted to 55 for a reason. vfl form has been promising.

we can only make a call of failure on one player taken in the first 3 rounds over the last 3 drafts yet recruiting has been bad. simply put it is way too early to call.

mature players taken  in trade psd and nd

houi - has made a reasonable contribution has his limitations. what did he cost again. oh a psd pick. well worth it dont ya think.
grigg - his run and spread has been outstanding like houli he has limitations in other areas. did he cost much is he an upgrade on players we have cut.
derickx - has not worked out but what did we expect.  the odds were he may fail the process we went thru to get him was excellent. 5th rnd pick oh dear its a shemozzle.
maric ivan - have proved to be an absolute steal. pick 35
a maric - rookie,  a rookie big deal if he fails the whole idea with rookies is to pick lots and turn em over till you find a player. he has good skills.
morris - has proved to be a great pick up. cost virtually nothing.
webberley - again he was dominating his league when drafted  has good skills by foot but is not up to afl level, the process we went thru  was right
nason - could never work that one out was a poor selection.

rookies do you really want to go into and whine about what rookies have or have not made it we all know most of these picks will fail.

so you use a blanket statement proclaiming our recruiting under hardwick as bad.
 from that i take it you have already written of 1st 2nd and 3rd yr players. what exactly is it you think is bad about recruiting since hardwicks been there. oh and lets again add hardwick is not responsible for recruiting that honor falls to messers jackson cameron and hartley.

what was it malthouse said, oh yes a coach lives and dies on the back of his recruiting staff is that the same malthouse your adamant we should get.

[the claw]

Grimes was preseason draft.  Ready made player. 

Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?

We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"

Sorry if I've missed read your posts

Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it.  It was poorly worded.

What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players.  So you would have expected a ready made player there.

You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries.  But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.

Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery.  They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.

grimes  18yo o hanlon 18yo, taking 18 yr olds in the psd is tantamount to taking them at pick 100 in the nd or as a rookie that goes onto the list proper. houli a mature pick  as such has been a good contributor and a very cheap pick up.
again it seems your expectations of late nd psd and rookie picks is most will make it when the opposite is actually true with very few at all clubs making it.

ive said this before about rookie. if you take 6 only one will make it they last to the rookie list because most of them have chrnic weaknesses in their games.

jusge em on the first 3 rounds and what trades they have done. anything outside of that really is a numbers game and should be judged as such.

[rogerd3]

geez it hasnt helped been crap at this time
with these new clubs hogging all these players.

mind you we might have stuffed it up anyway.

thats how we roll isnt it

[unplugged]

Draft Picks 2009.  16 players.  www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-richmond-tigers?year=2009

10 in each of the 2010 and 2011 draft.  Too early to know anything from those drafts.  But the 2009 draft is 3 years on and nine have already gone. This is what we have left.

Martin.  Pick 4. Have to expect to get that right.
2nd best.  Nahas.  He was a rookie promotion.  Wallace player.

Griffiths 19.  Astbury. 35. Dea 44 Grimes Preseason. Webberley. 67.
The most games any of these players have played is 22.  Webberley will go. 

Grimes is the only one you would be confident in but he has dodgy hammies, (brendan, call your brother michael rather than wasting our money on animal blood half way around the world).  The other three have not proven their worth.

When you have 3 players out of 16 playing and two of those were virtual certainties, you might have a better explanation of our depth without just blaming the previous coaches.

[the claw]

Draft Picks 2009.  16 players.  www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-richmond-tigers?year=2009

10 in each of the 2010 and 2011 draft.  Too early to know anything from those drafts.  But the 2009 draft is 3 years on and nine have already gone. This is what we have left.

Martin.  Pick 4. Have to expect to get that right.
2nd best.  Nahas.  He was a rookie promotion.  Wallace player.

Griffiths 19.  Astbury. 35. Dea 44 Grimes Preseason. Webberley. 67.
The most games any of these players have played is 22.  Webberley will go. 

Grimes is the only one you would be confident in but he has dodgy hammies, (brendan, call your brother michael rather than wasting our money on animal blood half way around the world).  The other three have not proven their worth.

When you have 3 players out of 16 playing and two of those were virtual certainties, you might have a better explanation of our depth without just blaming the previous coaches.

so i see your expectations are rookie psd and late nd picks should make it. i see you also include rookie promotions that were not hardwick picks in a draft as well as the rookies.

so your moaning about 6 rookie picks not making it lol,  and two late nd picks.  as i keep on telling you go look at the strike rate with these picks at every other club its a numbers game.
i have actually argued  with a lot of these picks you are better od targeting mature state league players.

if you took the time to look our recruiting in the main over the kast 3yrs has been no better or worse than any other club with late nd psd and rookie picks.how hard is that to grasp.

[Yeahright]

Grimes was preseason draft.  Ready made player. 

Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?

We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"

Sorry if I've missed read your posts

Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it.  It was poorly worded.

What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players.  So you would have expected a ready made player there.

You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries.  But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.

Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery.  They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.

I get what you mean by traditionally used on ready made players. But it is also used on kid's that are over looked in the draft and its a bit unfair to expect more from Grimes because he was taken in the national draft

[unplugged]

Grimes was preseason draft.  Ready made player. 

Am I reading your post the right way, that Grimes taken in the pre-season draft was a ready am player?

We drafted him straight out of the TAC cup as an 18yo (he's now 20) don't think that qualifies as "ready made"

Sorry if I've missed read your posts

Thanks for picking up on that William and being polite about it.  It was poorly worded.

What I meant was preseason draft picks are traditionally used on ready made players.  So you would have expected a ready made player there.

You could argue we haven't done a great job developing Grimes either considering the nature of his injuries.  But that is a fair bit more subjective than the Nason or Webberley picks for example.

Just a note on Reiwoldt and Vickery.  They were high draft picks so you would have higher expectations of them and their development.

I get what you mean by traditionally used on ready made players. But it is also used on kid's that are over looked in the draft and its a bit unfair to expect more from Grimes because he was taken in the national draft

I totally agree.  Grimes was a good draft pick, especially for preseason draft.  Are his injuries bad luck or poor player management?

Outside of our top 4 draft picks, we pretty much had a 0 percent success rate of Hardwick's kids in 2009.  Its been three years and three of those havent proven that they are good enough yet.  Its an issue.  Some supporters want to blame past coaches for everything.  It doesn't solve what is happening right under their noses.