A Reality look at 09 Culling

[big tone]

This is what I would do-

Retire- Brown, Cogs, Simmons, Bowden and Johnson. = 5

Delist- (I don't care if they have contracts or not, we had a good year financially so pay these duds outs and be done with it)
JON, Hughes, McMahon, Pattison, Petts, Polak, and Thompson. = 7

Trade or they stay- Raines, Schulz and Jackson = maybe 3

So that's possibly 15.

Now I would promote Browne and Nahas off the rookie list.

So in terms of the ruckmen for next year I would let Browne and Gus fight it out over the pre season to see who is our number one ruckmen next year and draft a young ruckmen and rookie another. As well as having Vickory learning as well. Sure they are all young but get the right ruck coach and let them learn. Tell them all if they don't run and jump at the footy  it will be there last year.

Players like Conners, Edwards, Hislop, King, Moore, Polo, Putt, Rance, Thursfield and Tuck are all lucky but nobody to sign more than a year contract. They all get next year to prove themselves or they are the next to go!

I was all for trading away Foley and Newman but our list is so bad we need these players to stay and stay and play well. The only other guy who maybe worth something after the year he has had is Bling. Realistically he had a good 4 to 6 weeks but his last 6 weeks have been ordinary at best. I think if he stayed a Tiger he would be a good player but only good, not outstanding. We have an opportunity to trade this guy now and maybe get a first rounder for him that might be a superstar and might not be but we need to try something.

After watching last night I would definitely say we have the worst list in the AFL, Fremantle are a year in front of us in terms of draft picks and have some really good kids that have shown a fair bit this year and they have Pav.
Melbourne are two years ahead of us in terms of draft picks and after this years draft will pick up a Deledio and Cotchin with their first two picks. Both Melbourne and Freeo will play finals before we do.

Next year Hardwick needs to play the kids and develop them as fast as possible but we need to bottom out and bottom out properly. I think we will win fewer games than this year but as long as they start to do the things that will make them a better side in the future (e.g. TACKLE, chase, smother, block) then I will be happy.

Some average years ahead but it will be all worth it if it is done properly!

Good luck D. Hardwick, you are going to need it!

[jezza]

After watching last night I would definitely say we have the worst list in the AFL, Fremantle are a year in front of us in terms of draft picks and have some really good kids that have shown a fair bit this year and they have Pav.
Melbourne are two years ahead of us in terms of draft picks and after this years draft will pick up a Deledio and Cotchin with their first two picks. Both Melbourne and Freeo will play finals before we do.

Agreed (back in May) - http://oneeyed-richmond.com/forum//index.php?topic=9157.msg139090#msg139090

[TigerLand]

Well Jack's heard Simmo is staying and Gus is going  but ignoring that for the time being.....

The list management has to be planned over the next 2 years (3 drafts) at least. It's too big a job to try and do in just a single off-season. Whether we like it or not we need to bottom out. It'll be tough on Hardwick in his first 2 years and some supporters will call him a dud but if he wants to be the coach to turn our Club around it's what he and us need to do.

Now we start off with picks 3, 19, 35, 51, 67,.. straight away. Next year even with GC17 hogging the draft a bottom 2 side will still have either pick 4 or 6 or thereabouts. Say it's 6, 26, 43, 60, ... It's not a complete disaster with the intro of GC17 as long as the Club is SMART and PLANS AHEAD unlike most of the past 23 draft/trade periods. We'll at least still have a top pick when most existing clubs won't enter the draft until the 20s. So we need to sign up our best young players going forward (those capable of playing in premiership side) now so they're out of reach of other clubs and then trade for picks with the rest. That will be the key for us.

We should be aiming for a minimum of six National draft picks for the next couple of years. Add PSD, rookies and rookie promotions then 12 changes per year is a realistic outcome. Do that over the next 2 years and we will have basically turned over 3/4ers of the current list only keeping hold of the current cream (which even by the club's estimation is only 12 faces).

Mine changes are pretty much the same as yours Popelord.

2009 - * Outside senior list

Retirees: Johnson, Bowden*, Brown, Cogs
Delist: JON, Hughes, Petts, Polak, Simmo, Gourdis*, Silvester*
Attempt to Trade one or more for picks: McMahon, Tuck, Raines, Patto

= 8 senior list outs (at least). Any trade would be an extra out for an extra pick. Would like to offload more but you need to match a draft pick for every out. A priority pick would've been useful here  .

Promote: Nahas

Draft Picks: 3, 19, 35, 51, 67, 83 (Free F/S), PSD #2. Plus any extra picks gained in 2009 trade week.

= 8 senior list ins (at least).

Rookie ins: O'Rielly*

2010

Retirees: Richo*, Cousins?
Delist: King, Thomson, Hislop, Schulz and any other of those lucky to survive purely because they have a contract and that we couldn't trade away this year.
Uncontracted player to GC17 for a pick: Raines?, one of our tall defenders?

Should be similar number out to 2009.

Draft picks: 6?, 26, 43, 60, GC17 pick, PSD. Plus any extra picks gained in 2010 trade week.

2011

A final sweep out of who currently doesn't come on and develop within 4-5 years of being on our list.

Pretty spot on MT. Absolutely spot on.

Looking at our list its beyond unaccecptable we had those older players stayed on. As Hardwick said there is no sentiment in football, well keeping Johnson, Bowden, Brown, Richo, Simmonds all on the list for another year with Coughlan a 28 year old injury prone unknown, Polak a special case and the recruitment of Cousins. To recruit 2 players that had failed to set the world on fire at there previous clubs in Thompson and Hislop along with some under developed youngsters. My god it looks horrible. I'm annoyed I didn't see it coming, even more annoyed the RFC didn't either.

[WilliamPowell]

Delist- (I don't care if they have contracts or not, we had a good year financially so pay these duds outs and be done with it)
JON, Hughes, McMahon, Pattison, Petts, Polak, and Thompson. = 7

big tone, with blokes being contracted and wnating ot pay them out it isn't just about whether we have the cash or not. It is more dependant on where we sit salary cap wise, we cut them in 2009 then that omeny forms part of the 2009 salary cap. I don't know where we sit % wise to 100% but if paying out those blokes with contracts is going to tip us over the 100% clearly we cannot do it

Don't get me wrong I am all for terminating the contracts if we can 1/ afford to do it and 2/ it wont send us over the 100%. My point is simply that it is also an salary cap consideration

BTW of the 7 you've mentioned only 2 have contracts for 2010 - Thompson and McMahon

Personally if we are in a position to pay out say 2 contracts then it is a case of choosing who 

[WilliamPowell]

The last part of the post is the most important. These guys are being tought how to ruck badly, I would give Gus another year under a decent ruck coach.

Monkhurst, you have got to be mad to think this brianless twit could actauly TEACH. As a ex ruckman I have watched as our guys have reached a point where they have no idea how to jump for the ball. Its like they fake a jump in the hope that the other guy misses it, its a dicrace what our rucks have become. Lets not wreck Vickery too please.

I suppose Fluffy I have no qualms in looking at trading Gus because I have watched him for 4-5 years now and in the last 12 months in particulare seen very little improvement. Even when he was runnign around in Coburg reserves he refused to jump ... I just think out interests are better served in getting someone with experience in the joint who has 4-5 years left and working on developing Vickery & Browne. Facts are Simmonds doesn't have that window of 4-5 years (struth I doubt he'd have 2 years) left so I'drather go with a someone else

[mightytiges]

Delist- (I don't care if they have contracts or not, we had a good year financially so pay these duds outs and be done with it)
JON, Hughes, McMahon, Pattison, Petts, Polak, and Thompson. = 7

big tone, with blokes being contracted and wnating ot pay them out it isn't just about whether we have the cash or not. It is more dependant on where we sit salary cap wise, we cut them in 2009 then that omeny forms part of the 2009 salary cap. I don't know where we sit % wise to 100% but if paying out those blokes with contracts is going to tip us over the 100% clearly we cannot do it

Don't get me wrong I am all for terminating the contracts if we can 1/ afford to do it and 2/ it wont send us over the 100%. My point is simply that it is also an salary cap consideration

BTW of the 7 you've mentioned only 2 have contracts for 2010 - Thompson and McMahon

Personally if we are in a position to pay out say 2 contracts then it is a case of choosing who 

It's also a draft pick consideration as well as a cost and salary cap issue. If we can't trade Jordie to another club for a semi-decent pick in return then he'll have to be replaced by a kid picked up late in the draft (in the 80s?) who has a low probability of making it especially in a shallower draft pool. 

[big tone]

Delist- (I don't care if they have contracts or not, we had a good year financially so pay these duds outs and be done with it)
JON, Hughes, McMahon, Pattison, Petts, Polak, and Thompson. = 7

big tone, with blokes being contracted and wnating ot pay them out it isn't just about whether we have the cash or not. It is more dependant on where we sit salary cap wise, we cut them in 2009 then that omeny forms part of the 2009 salary cap. I don't know where we sit % wise to 100% but if paying out those blokes with contracts is going to tip us over the 100% clearly we cannot do it

Don't get me wrong I am all for terminating the contracts if we can 1/ afford to do it and 2/ it wont send us over the 100%. My point is simply that it is also an salary cap consideration

BTW of the 7 you've mentioned only 2 have contracts for 2010 - Thompson and McMahon

Personally if we are in a position to pay out say 2 contracts then it is a case of choosing who 

Fair enough WP.
Thompson is simply not upto AFL footy, he has to go. How much would it cost me? 

[Stripes]

I will be extremely confused and angry if Simmonds is kept on the list yet Graham is not. Going on our last game I would have thought both should go but that was not a reflection of Gus season IMHO. While he did worry me just how poor he was below his knees and how he was our rucked by a first year ruckman in Natanui, he still has another year of development left in him at the least particulary given the age of our other ruckmen.

Simmonds is terrible. He was once good enough to be selected as the Victorian Ruck in the State of Origin game but he has now lost his mobility, skills and leap. For an experienced player he offers nothing that Vickery, Browne, Patto and even Gus at his worst wouldn't offer.

Johnson(ret.), Bowden(ret.), Brown(ret.) and Cogs(ret.) are already gone - that's four gone already.

JON and Pettifier are another 2 givens - that's six.

Simmonds should surely be given his marching orders and, if Hardwick is true to his ' no room for sentiments' statement, Polak should follow - that makes eight.

Trade McMahon and Raines plus Schulz (if he we can get something for him) - and that should give us ten at minimum.

I really don't think it is worth it paying out players such as Thomson, Hislop, King plus McMahon and Schulz(if we can't trade them). We just don't have the depth to replace such players with players picked up in the 5th+ round of the draft plus absorbing their payments in our salary cap.

I believe 10 is a good starting point to turn over. Any more than that and we will be only bringing in poor/average players to replace poor/average players.

The rebuild we take time.

Stripes

[big tone]

I will be extremely confused and angry if Simmonds is kept on the list yet Graham is not. Going on our last game I would have thought both should go but that was not a reflection of Gus season IMHO. While he did worry me just how poor he was below his knees and how he was our rucked by a first year ruckman in Natanui, he still has another year of development left in him at the least particulary given the age of our other ruckmen.

Simmonds is terrible. He was once good enough to be selected as the Victorian Ruck in the State of Origin game but he has now lost his mobility, skills and leap. For an experienced player he offers nothing that Vickery, Browne, Patto and even Gus at his worst wouldn't offer.

Johnson(ret.), Bowden(ret.), Brown(ret.) and Cogs(ret.) are already gone - that's four gone already.

JON and Pettifier are another 2 givens - that's six.

Simmonds should surely be given his marching orders and, if Hardwick is true to his ' no room for sentiments' statement, Polak should follow - that makes eight.

Trade McMahon and Raines plus Schulz (if he we can get something for him) - and that should give us ten at minimum.

I really don't think it is worth it paying out players such as Thomson, Hislop, King plus McMahon and Schulz(if we can't trade them). We just don't have the depth to replace such players with players picked up in the 5th+ round of the draft plus absorbing their payments in our salary cap.

I believe 10 is a good starting point to turn over. Any more than that and we will be only bringing in poor/average players to replace poor/average players.

The rebuild we take time.

Stripes

So according to you Stripes you want to delist only TWO players from that list!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is almost as stupid as you defending TW the entire pre-season last year!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That would be the weakest discission the club has made for some time imo.
I just hope that Damien and the RFC have a different idea to you. 
We need to rebuild, not just get rid of players that have retired.

[WilliamPowell]

It's also a draft pick consideration as well as a cost and salary cap issue. If we can't trade Jordie to another club for a semi-decent pick in return then he'll have to be replaced by a kid picked up late in the draft (in the 80s?) who has a low probability of making it especially in a shallower draft pool. 

Agreed MT it will also depend on what sort of pick you'd get. I reckon this year we will see alot of 20-21 year olds from the state based comps being considered at draft time. I would think a Liddle or Horne from Coburg for example would have greater chance of being drafted this year because the depth just isn't there at U18 level

I suppose the other thing you need to ask is what do you do about those out of contract that are likely to be put up for trade (eg Raines) and you don't get a decent trade for them. Do you keep them or cut them

[Ramps]

I would not be keeping Simmonds. Simmonds and Pettifer should officially retire and they should do it tomorrow.

[jezza]

To go:
Bowden
Brown
Coughlan
Hughes
Johnson
McMahon
Oakley-Nicholls
Pettifer
Polak
Simmonds
Sylvestor

9 from the main list, elevate Nahas so 8 picks, maybe more with trades. Only 1 vet so additional rookie spot.

[WA Tiger]

To go:
Bowden
Brown
Coughlan
Hughes
Johnson
McMahon
Oakley-Nicholls
Pettifer
Polak
Simmonds
Sylvestor

9 from the main list, elevate Nahas so 8 picks, maybe more with trades. Only 1 vet so additional rookie spot.

Pretty good list that jezza and I agree with all of them, maybe not Polly though. I would also delist Schulz, Thompson and Hislop and look at trading the following:

Patto
Schulz (if under contract)
McMahon
Edwards (unless he hits the weights)
King
Polo

[Infamy]

Anyone who expects Hislop & Thomson to go are kidding themselves
They are both contracted, they are both kids and are both contested ball winners, exactly the type Hardwick wants
If they still haven't done anything next year then they'll be in the firing line, but to think they'll go now is just nonsense

[WA Tiger]

Anyone who expects Hislop & Thomson to go are kidding themselves
They are both contracted, they are both kids and are both contested ball winners, exactly the type Hardwick wants
If they still haven't done anything next year then they'll be in the firing line, but to think they'll go now is just nonsense

Well they had better have one hell of a pre-season and lift by about 150% because they were nothing short of useless this year and they came supposidly ready to roll players but spent most of their time at Coburg!