Author Topic: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading  (Read 106922 times)

Offline Penelope

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2013, 09:31:42 PM »
 :lol
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline one-eyed

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2013, 02:40:30 PM »
The 2013 scientific report into Climate Change by the IPCC ...

http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/uploads/WGIAR5-SPM_Approved27Sep2013.pdf

Offline Smokey

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2013, 11:06:41 AM »
Why climate change is good for the world
Don't panic! The scientific consensus is that warmer temperatures do more good than harm
Matt Ridley 19 October 2013
   

Climate change has done more good than harm so far and is likely to continue doing so for most of this century. This is not some barmy, right-wing fantasy; it is the consensus of expert opinion. Yet almost nobody seems to know this. Whenever I make the point in public, I am told by those who are paid to insult anybody who departs from climate alarm that I have got it embarrassingly wrong, don’t know what I am talking about, must be referring to Britain only, rather than the world as a whole, and so forth.

At first, I thought this was just their usual bluster. But then I realised that they are genuinely unaware. Good news is no news, which is why the mainstream media largely ignores all studies showing net benefits of climate change. And academics have not exactly been keen to push such analysis forward. So here follows, for possibly the first time in history, an entire article in the national press on the net benefits of climate change.

There are many likely effects of climate change: positive and negative, economic and ecological, humanitarian and financial. And if you aggregate them all, the overall effect is positive today — and likely to stay positive until around 2080. That was the conclusion of Professor Richard Tol of Sussex University after he reviewed 14 different studies of the effects of future climate trends.

To be precise, Prof Tol calculated that climate change would be beneficial up to 2.2˚C of warming from 2009 (when he wrote his paper). This means approximately 3˚C from pre-industrial levels, since about 0.8˚C of warming has happened in the last 150 years. The latest estimates of climate sensitivity suggest that such temperatures may not be reached till the end of the century — if at all. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, whose reports define the consensis, is sticking to older assumptions, however, which would mean net benefits till about 2080. Either way, it’s a long way off.

Now Prof Tol has a new paper, published as a chapter in a new book, called How Much have Global Problems Cost the World?, which is edited by Bjorn Lomborg, director of the Copenhagen Consensus Centre, and was reviewed by a group of leading economists. In this paper he casts his gaze backwards to the last century. He concludes that climate change did indeed raise human and planetary welfare during the 20th century.

You can choose not to believe the studies Prof Tol has collated. Or you can say the net benefit is small (which it is), you can argue that the benefits have accrued more to rich countries than poor countries (which is true) or you can emphasise that after 2080 climate change would probably do net harm to the world (which may also be true). You can even say you do not trust the models involved (though they have proved more reliable than the temperature models). But what you cannot do is deny that this is the current consensus. If you wish to accept the consensus on temperature models, then you should accept the consensus on economic benefit.

Overall, Prof Tol finds that climate change in the past century improved human welfare. By how much? He calculates by 1.4 per cent of global economic output, rising to 1.5 per cent by 2025. For some people, this means the difference between survival and starvation.

It will still be 1.2 per cent around 2050 and will not turn negative until around 2080. In short, my children will be very old before global warming stops benefiting the world. Note that if the world continues to grow at 3 per cent a year, then the average person will be about nine times as rich in 2080 as she is today. So low-lying Bangladesh will be able to afford the same kind of flood defences that the Dutch have today.

The chief benefits of global warming include: fewer winter deaths; lower energy costs; better agricultural yields; probably fewer droughts; maybe richer biodiversity. It is a little-known fact that winter deaths exceed summer deaths — not just in countries like Britain but also those with very warm summers, including Greece. Both Britain and Greece see mortality rates rise by 18 per cent each winter. Especially cold winters cause a rise in heart failures far greater than the rise in deaths during heatwaves.

Cold, not the heat, is the biggest killer. For the last decade, Brits have been dying from the cold at the average rate of 29,000 excess deaths each winter. Compare this to the heatwave ten years ago, which claimed 15,000 lives in France and just 2,000 in Britain. In the ten years since, there has been no summer death spike at all. Excess winter deaths hit the poor harder than the rich for the obvious reason: they cannot afford heating. And it is not just those at risk who benefit from moderate warming. Global warming has so far cut heating bills more than it has raised cooling bills. If it resumes after its current 17-year hiatus, and if the energy efficiency of our homes improves, then at some point the cost of cooling probably will exceed the cost of heating — probably from about 2035, Prof Tol estimates.

The greatest benefit from climate change comes not from temperature change but from carbon dioxide itself. It is not pollution, but the raw material from which plants make carbohydrates and thence proteins and fats. As it is an extremely rare trace gas in the air — less than 0.04 per cent of the air on average — plants struggle to absorb enough of it. On a windless, sunny day, a field of corn can suck half the carbon dioxide out of the air. Commercial greenhouse operators therefore pump carbon dioxide into their greenhouses to raise plant growth rates.

The increase in average carbon dioxide levels over the past century, from 0.03 per cent to 0.04 per cent of the air, has had a measurable impact on plant growth rates. It is responsible for a startling change in the amount of greenery on the planet. As Dr Ranga Myneni of Boston University has documented, using three decades of satellite data, 31 per cent of the global vegetated area of the planet has become greener and just 3 per cent has become less green. This translates into a 14 per cent increase in productivity of ecosystems and has been observed in all vegetation types.

Dr Randall Donohue and colleagues of the CSIRO Land and Water department in Australia also analysed satellite data and found greening to be clearly attributable in part to the carbon dioxide fertilisation effect. Greening is especially pronounced in dry areas like the Sahel region of Africa, where satellites show a big increase in green vegetation since the 1970s.

It is often argued that global warming will hurt the world’s poorest hardest. What is seldom heard is that the decline of famines in the Sahel in recent years is partly due to more rainfall caused by moderate warming and partly due to more carbon dioxide itself: more greenery for goats to eat means more greenery left over for gazelles, so entire ecosystems have benefited.

Even polar bears are thriving so far, though this is mainly because of the cessation of hunting. None the less, it’s worth noting that the three years with the lowest polar bear cub survival in the western Hudson Bay (1974, 1984 and 1992) were the years when the sea ice was too thick for ringed seals to appear in good numbers in spring. Bears need broken ice.

Well yes, you may argue, but what about all the weather disasters caused by climate change? Entirely mythical — so far. The latest IPCC report is admirably frank about this, reporting ‘no significant observed trends in global tropical cyclone frequency over the past century … lack of evidence and thus low confidence regarding the sign of trend in the magnitude and/or frequency offloads on a global scale … low confidence in observed trends in small-scale severe weather phenomena such as hail and thunderstorms’.

In fact, the death rate from droughts, floods and storms has dropped by 98 per cent since the 1920s, according to a careful study by the independent scholar Indur Goklany. Not because weather has become less dangerous but because people have gained better protection as they got richer: witness the remarkable success of cyclone warnings in India last week. That’s the thing about climate change — we will probably pocket the benefits and mitigate at least some of the harm by adapting. For example, experts now agree that malaria will continue its rapid worldwide decline whatever the climate does.

Yet cherry-picking the bad news remains rife. A remarkable example of this was the IPCC’s last report in 2007, which said that global warming would cause ‘hundreds of millions of people [to be] exposed to increased water stress’ under four different scenarios of future warming. It cited a study, which had also counted numbers of people at reduced risk of water stress — and in each case that number was higher. The IPCC simply omitted the positive numbers.

Why does this matter? Even if climate change does produce slightly more welfare for the next 70 years, why take the risk that it will do great harm thereafter? There is one obvious reason: climate policy is already doing harm. Building wind turbines, growing biofuels and substituting wood for coal in power stations — all policies designed explicitly to fight climate change — have had negligible effects on carbon dioxide emissions. But they have driven people into fuel poverty, made industries uncompetitive, driven up food prices, accelerated the destruction of forests, killed rare birds of prey, and divided communities. To name just some of the effects. Mr Goklany estimates that globally nearly 200,000 people are dying every year, because we are turning 5 per cent of the world’s grain crop into motor fuel instead of food: that pushes people into malnutrition and death. In this country, 65 people a day are dying because they cannot afford to heat their homes properly, according to Christine Liddell of the University of Ulster, yet the government is planning to double the cost of electricity to consumers by 2030.

As Bjorn Lomborg has pointed out, the European Union will pay £165 billion for its current climate policies each and every year for the next 87 years. Britain’s climate policies — subsidising windmills, wood-burners, anaerobic digesters, electric vehicles and all the rest — is due to cost us £1.8 trillion over the course of this century. In exchange for that Brobdingnagian sum, we hope to lower the air temperature by about 0.005˚C — which will be undetectable by normal thermometers. The accepted consensus among economists is that every £100 spent fighting climate change brings £3 of benefit.

So we are doing real harm now to impede a change that will produce net benefits for 70 years. That’s like having radiotherapy because you are feeling too well. I just don’t share the certainty of so many in the green establishment that it’s worth it. It may be, but it may not.

Disclosure: by virtue of owning shares and land, I have some degree of interests in all almost all forms of energy generation: coal, wood, oil and gas, wind (reluctantly), nuclear, even biofuels, demand for which drives up wheat prices. I could probably make more money out of enthusiastically endorsing green energy than opposing it. So the argument presented here is not special pleading, just honest curiosity.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9057151/carry-on-warming/

Offline 1965

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2013, 04:58:23 PM »

What an arrogant twit this moron of a PM is.

Fast becoming the most embarrassing PM ever.
 

UN official 'talking through her hat' on bushfires and climate change, says Tony Abbott

Date October 23, 2013 - 2:17PM
Judith Ireland 

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has dismissed the comments of a senior UN official who said there was a clear link between bushfires and climate change, arguing ''fire is a part of the Australian experience''.

In an interview with CNN, the head of the UN's climate change negotiations, Christiana Figueres, said on Monday that there was a clear link between climate change and bushfires such as those raging in New South Wales.

Ms Figueres also warned that the Coalition government would pay a high political and financial price for its decision to scrap carbon pricing.

Advertisement She noted that the World Meteorological Organisation had not yet established a direct link between the NSW fires and climate change.

"But what is absolutely clear is the science is telling us that there are increasing heat waves in Asia, Europe, and Australia; that these will continue; that they will continue in their intensity and in their frequency," Ms Figueres said.

Mr Abbott batted away the comments on Wednesday, saying that Australia had had ''bad fires'' since the beginning of European settlement.

''Well I think the official in question is talking through her hat, if I may say so,'' he told Fairfax Radio.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/un-official-talking-through-her-hat-on-bushfires-and-climate-change-says-tony-abbott-20131023-2w0mz.html#ixzz2iWQEhfJo

Yeah we're already going to vote for him mate, you don't need to keep selling it.....

Offline 1965

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2013, 05:28:56 PM »

What an arrogant twit this moron of a PM is.

Fast becoming the most embarrassing PM ever.
 

UN official 'talking through her hat' on bushfires and climate change, says Tony Abbott

Date October 23, 2013 - 2:17PM
Judith Ireland 

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has dismissed the comments of a senior UN official who said there was a clear link between bushfires and climate change, arguing ''fire is a part of the Australian experience''.

In an interview with CNN, the head of the UN's climate change negotiations, Christiana Figueres, said on Monday that there was a clear link between climate change and bushfires such as those raging in New South Wales.

Ms Figueres also warned that the Coalition government would pay a high political and financial price for its decision to scrap carbon pricing.

Advertisement She noted that the World Meteorological Organisation had not yet established a direct link between the NSW fires and climate change.

"But what is absolutely clear is the science is telling us that there are increasing heat waves in Asia, Europe, and Australia; that these will continue; that they will continue in their intensity and in their frequency," Ms Figueres said.

Mr Abbott batted away the comments on Wednesday, saying that Australia had had ''bad fires'' since the beginning of European settlement.

''Well I think the official in question is talking through her hat, if I may say so,'' he told Fairfax Radio.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/un-official-talking-through-her-hat-on-bushfires-and-climate-change-says-tony-abbott-20131023-2w0mz.html#ixzz2iWQEhfJo
Yeah we're already going to vote for him mate, you don't need to keep selling it.....

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2013, 06:00:09 PM »
Fire fighter and climate science expert  :clapping :clapping

super Tony

Offline Smokey

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2013, 07:32:11 PM »
Uummm, a person who is paid handsomely in her job to peddle unsubstantiated inaccuracies as fact to place fear in the public arena in order to justify her position.  Yes, that's who I'll be listening to..................not.

Bush fuel is to blame for NSW blazes, not United Nations' climate change theory, experts say

    MALCOLM HOLLAND Environment Reporter
    The Daily Telegraph
    October 23, 2013 1:33AM

CLAIMS by the United Nations that climate change was "absolutely" linked to the current NSW bushfires was dismissed as rubbish by both veteran experts and local residents who survived previous Blue Mountains infernos.

UN climate chief Christiana Figueres told CNN yesterday that climate change was creating more intense bushfires.

"What we have seen are just introductions to the doom and gloom we could be facing,'' Ms Figueres said. "The World Meteorological Organisation has not established the direct link between this wildfire and climate change - yet.  [ :o   :lol  and there it is in one small comment but to the blind it's still all Abbott's fault  :wallywink]

"But what is absolutely clear is the science is telling us that there are increasing heatwaves in Asia, Europe and Australia, that they will continue in their intensity and frequency."

But leading bushfire experts said it was ridiculous to link the current crisis to climate change when the most recent major report from the UN's own Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said the world's weather had warmed by just 0.89C since the start of the 20th century.

"If there is any global warming, the global warming is so slow and so small the bushfire event is totally overrun by the fuel state," retired Monash University researcher David Packham said.

He said reducing fuel loads in the Australian bush is what was urgently needed.

Research by Phil Cheney, a former head of CSIRO Bushfire Research, has found "the effect of (increasing temperatures forecast by the IPCC) on bushfire behaviour, by itself, will be trivial''.

"Fire intensity is far more significantly affected by fuel quantity, fuel dryness and wind strength than it is by temperature,'' he said.

In November 1957, bushfires driven by gale-force winds destroyed 25 homes, shops, schools, a church and a hospital in the Blue Mountains, and four young men died.

Local resident John Macgregor-Skinner, who was part of the 1957 fire-fighting effort, said yesterday it had been 5 degrees hotter then. "The Greens might try to blame Tony Abbott but in reality the blame is firmly in their court with their continued obstruction to planned widespread hazard reduction."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/bush-fuel-is-to-blame-for-nsw-blazes-not-united-nations-climate-change-theory-experts-say/story-fni0cx12-1226744870197

And while we are on the subject of the 'factual' and learned' and 'unbiased' Ms Figueres, here is some more of her tripe:

"The science is telling us that there are increasing heatwaves in Asia, Europe and Australia, that these will continue, that they will continue in their intensity and in their frequency - an example of what we may be looking at unless we take actually vigorous action."

Actually, the IPCC in their latest report says:

"This combined with issues with defining events, leads to the assessment that there is medium confidence that globally the length and frequency of warm spells, including heat waves, has increased since the middle of the 20th century although it is likely that heatwave frequency has increased during this period in large parts of Europe, Asia and Australia."

She says:

"What you have just seen on the screen [the NSW fires] is just one scenario and it is a scenario that we would walk toward unless we take, as I say, vigorous action. But there is another scenario, okay. What we have seen are just introductions to the doom and gloom that we could be facing."

The IPCC says:

"In summary, there is low confidence in observed trends in small-scale severe weather phenomena such as hail and thunderstorms… In summary, the current assessment concludes that there is not enough evidence at present to suggest more than low confidence in a global-scale observed trend in drought or dryness (lack of rainfall) since the middle of the 20th century… [There] is medium confidence that globally the length and frequency of warm spells, including heat waves, has increased since the middle of the 20th century… In summary, there continues to be a lack of evidence and thus low confidence regarding the sign of trend in the magnitude and/or frequency of floods on a global scale....  Over periods of a century or more, evidence suggests slight decreases in the frequency of tropical cyclones making landfall in the North Atlantic and the South Pacific..."

She says:

"The fact is we are already, as you have just pointed out, we are really already paying the price of carbon. We are paying the price with wildfires, we are paying the price with drought, we are paying the price with so many other disturbances to the hydrological cycle. That is all the price that we are paying."

Facts are there are no more "disturbances to the hydrological cycle" today or this year or this century than there have ever been in the history of this planet.

And all the while the real spend of climate change is an annual global figure in excess of $1billion per day based on the fear-mongering led by wealthy vested interest parties such as Al Gore.  $1billion per day that is being spent on something that is changing as it has for millions of years and in spite of anything man is doing or has done in the past couple of thousand.  $1 billion dollars spent on eradicating poverty or advancing third world economies or saving endangered species of wildlife would be worth it.  Lining the pockets of a gaggle of pigs with their noses buried deep in the trough of 'climate change' just shows how stupid the human race still is and how we are still capable of being led over the cliff in our lemming millions.

But I suppose it all really is Abbott's fault for calling it like it really is.   :wallywink

Gigantor

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2013, 07:40:49 PM »
I reckon the debate on climate change is a dead set draw.Countless journalists and scientists say its an ever growing presence in our lives and  far fewer say its not.That balances the argumensts up pretty well for mine

Offline Smokey

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2013, 07:46:33 PM »
If you want the moron party and moron politicians whose reckless and idiotic ideas are the real reason for most of the tragic fires we now see then here it is:



Nah, 'spose it's all Abbott's fault because all he does is go out and try and save his fellow citizens from dying due to these idiots and their policies.

Gigantor

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2013, 07:54:35 PM »
nothing to do with tony Abbott.
Actually I think Tones shown wonderfull leadership during the bushfires and has shown the way on community involvement...I dips me lid to him

Offline 1965

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2013, 10:37:38 AM »

And I thought Tony was the biggest moron in the Liberal Party.


Greg Hunt uses Wikipedia research to dismiss links between climate change and bushfires
   
October 24, 2013 - 10:20AM

Esther Han, Judith Ireland

Environment Minister Greg Hunt has hosed down suggestions of a link between climate change and increased bushfire intensity, saying he had ''looked up what Wikipedia'' said and it was clear that bushfires in Australia were frequent events that had occurred during hotter months since before European settlement.
 
His comments come as scientists, environment groups and politicians have raised concerns, in the wake of massive bushfires in New South Wales, on whether the pattern of increasing extreme weather events was linked to climate change.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greg-hunt-uses-wikipedia-research-to-dismiss-links-between-climate-change-and-bushfires-20131023-2w1w5.html#ixzz2iaie1RjI
Yeah we're already going to vote for him mate, you don't need to keep selling it.....

Offline 1965

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2013, 10:41:30 AM »

and from the same article

And isn't this a fact that should be obvious to anyone with a half a brain


While Mr Gore, a Nobel Prize-winning climate change activist, did accept bushfires were natural occurrences, he said they would be much worse in a world with high temperatures, dried out soil and vegetation.

''Wildfires become more pervasive and dangerous,'' he said.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greg-hunt-uses-wikipedia-research-to-dismiss-links-between-climate-change-and-bushfires-20131023-2w1w5.html#ixzz2iajQwu7C
Yeah we're already going to vote for him mate, you don't need to keep selling it.....

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2013, 10:51:25 AM »
How dare he politicize fires  >:(

Offline Smokey

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2013, 11:14:21 AM »

and from the same article

And isn't this a fact that should be obvious to anyone with a half a brain


While Mr Gore, a Nobel Prize-winning climate change activist, did accept bushfires were natural occurrences, he said they would be much worse in a world with high temperatures, dried out soil and vegetation.

''Wildfires become more pervasive and dangerous,'' he said.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greg-hunt-uses-wikipedia-research-to-dismiss-links-between-climate-change-and-bushfires-20131023-2w1w5.html#ixzz2iajQwu7C

I would suggest it took all of that moron's half brain to come up with that.  Of course Captain Obvious, the only flaw in that thieving flogbag's point is that the globe isn't warming by anywhere enough to make a fire-causing difference to soil and vegetation but the reluctance of governments to now back burn in high risk areas (which has been driven in large by f-wit parties like the Greens and fuelled by vested interest individuals like Gore) will make bushfires more pervasive and dangerous.  Cliff, meet lemming.

Offline 1965

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Re: Contoversial Topic #1 - Global Warming & Carbon Emissions Trading
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2013, 11:23:21 AM »

I would suggest it took all of that moron's half brain to come up with that.  Of course Captain Obvious, the only flaw in that thieving flogbag's point is that the globe isn't warming by anywhere enough to make a fire-causing difference to soil and vegetation but the reluctance of governments to now back burn in high risk areas (which has been driven in large by f-wit parties like the Greens and fuelled by vested interest individuals like Gore) will make bushfires more pervasive and dangerous.  Cliff, meet lemming.

Yet
Yeah we're already going to vote for him mate, you don't need to keep selling it.....