A honest and realistic appraisal of our players.

[the claw]

how on earth can anyone make an objective call on draft pix...plucked from the clacker and for whats its worth that's where they should remain...refer to earlier thread on draft pix to see what bollocks that is all about

whos making a call on recent draft picks.  those that have even been mentioned basically everyone single one has been placed in development and not established where they belong. i dont believe a comment has been made on their strengths and weaknesses.

instead of whinging like a stuck pig and generalising  come out and say what you disagree on.

[TigerLand]

Couldnt agree more Smokey.

Collins for example is pick 72. Diamond in the rough whether we got him by accident or by clever drafting who knows.

Rate his potential against someone like Tom Hislop pick 20 same draft. You'd say Collins is more likely to make it as an AFL footballer. If you tanked taht year to get Hislop, it wouldn't have proven worthy compared to a pick 72. An extra PP may improve your chances of drafting a better player but it's what happens after that counts.

I put List Management ahead of Tanking any day.

Clean out the dead wood every year and have extra picks in draft then you normally would and draft players like Collins and Nason, if you continued to hang onto dead wood (Schultz, Raines, Pettifer etc) you will have limited picks.

Our problem over the last 5 years wasn't NOT tanking it WAS failing to have the balls to cut players like Schultz, Pettifer, Rodan and gave them too many chances. On top of poor drafting of course.

IMO you should always look to draft a minimum of 6 untried 17-19 year olds each year and give them a footy and say show us what your made of instead of giving someone a 5th consecutive year and saying this might be their year. This is also why Hislop, King, McMahon should be moved on unless they cement a best 22 spot on the list and show potential for more improvement.

Its all about list management not tanking.

[Owl]

Claw, mate, I have heard of rose coloured glasses but, what the hell colour are yours? (shades of depressing shizer?) I feel like slashing my wrists reading that.  On a good note the orange boys will be a little prompter this year as they have been training harder than ever.

[the claw]

Couldnt agree more Smokey.

Collins for example is pick 72. Diamond in the rough whether we got him by accident or by clever drafting who knows.

Rate his potential against someone like Tom Hislop pick 20 same draft. You'd say Collins is more likely to make it as an AFL footballer. If you tanked taht year to get Hislop, it wouldn't have proven worthy compared to a pick 72. An extra PP may improve your chances of drafting a better player but it's what happens after that counts.

I put List Management ahead of Tanking any day.

Clean out the dead wood every year and have extra picks in draft then you normally would and draft players like Collins and Nason, if you continued to hang onto dead wood (Schultz, Raines, Pettifer etc) you will have limited picks.

Our problem over the last 5 years wasn't NOT tanking it WAS failing to have the balls to cut players like Schultz, Pettifer, Rodan and gave them too many chances. On top of poor drafting of course.

IMO you should always look to draft a minimum of 6 untried 17-19 year olds each year and give them a footy and say show us what your made of instead of giving someone a 5th consecutive year and saying this might be their year. This is also why Hislop, King, McMahon should be moved on unless they cement a best 22 spot on the list and show potential for more improvement.

Its all about list management not tanking.

thats it though isnt it im not rating them on potential alone. if that were the case vickery post martin and many others would be A or B.There are heaps of potential A or  B ranked players as juniors littered in the ranks of obscurity.
collins who i have liked heaps for awhile now is where he is in the scheme of being an afl player. he shows heaps of promise but has done nothing other than to show his potential. to give him an A now would be tantamount to saying hes as good as judd.

where is hislop currently in the scheme of things well i am yet to do the remainder of players on the list but for mine hislop is currently b/s but at 21 i d give him this yr to show he can be at least a core list player.

as for everything else you have said i agree wholeheartedly and its these things ive banged on about for so many yrs now.

if we had cut players we would have had lower finishes imo and hence had more pps. and the one thing i disagree on, is tanking does help significantly to grow your list especially with quality.
you do both. you cut deep and you play kids this in turn usually means a period at or near the bottom of the ladder which aides tanking. after all common sense says  while near the bottom you should be targeting as many kids as possible and as early as possible for obvious reasons..

[the claw]

Claw, mate, I have heard of rose coloured glasses but, what the hell colour are yours? (shades of depressing shizer?) I feel like slashing my wrists reading that.  On a good note the orange boys will be a little prompter this year as they have been training harder than ever.

my glasses are plain old reading glasses that enables me to see clearly.

cmon owl you obviously disagree with a lot of what i say but you dont say exactly what you disagree with. im more than happy to debate the pros and cons of whats been written its what this is about but it seems very few are prepared to discuss our players at all in terms of rating them and deciding whos an established player or not.

i will say again theres nothing pessimistic in the assesments its where imo each player is currently at im not saying many players wont improve far from it.but there are some who wont is that being negative i dont think so its honest and realistic.

im no expert and i will have ratings that are wrong for and against players.

i must say im disappointed at the lack of debate on what has been said. no one prepared to give an opinion on this around here it seems.

[Beren]

So how often do you see our boys live claw?

[the claw]

no where near enough. most of the family is in melb and tas probably average about half a dozen games a season.

[Stripes]

Hello all - just back from holidays. 

Claw - I agree with much of what you have said but believe some of your rating are a little askew.

I'm assuming you are rating players on current form rather than potential so I will do the same. Given our 2009 ladder positioning and current average age of the list you probably are being too kind. In reality we are a failure and so when you compare most of our players to the rest of the competition you could easily argue that they are B/S or failures also...but I don't necessarily believe this is the case. Individual players weaknesses are always more exposed when they do not have the appropriate supportive structures around them - this has been the problem with our team for so long. Other teams have players who are weaker than many of ours yet they have the sufficient structures and talent around them to hide these deficiencies. So perhaps once our players have a straight forward, team orientated game plan and structures around them their flaws will be less noticeable and their strengths exemplified. We'll see once Harwicks game plan is fully established but I digress - back to the individual players....

I think you are too hard on McGuane for a start. McGuane is our best backman by a long way. You may say this is more of an indication how poor the rest of the backline and that could well be correct but he has the pace and spoiling skills to trouble any forward. He needs to increase in body size but he is deceptively strong. Watching him at training he was a standout in one on one muscle work and spoiling. His foot disposal can let him down but, as I inferred above, this is highlighted by lack of running support in the backline. I would rate him a B and lock him into the CHB position with good rebounders and uses by foot flanking him.

I think your assessment of Foley was also a little harsh. Perhaps if you were basing it purely on this year given his unjuries yet you rated Cousins as an A when he miised much of the year due to injuries also. At full fitness Foley was proven to be one of the best midfielders in the league and was a standout during the State of Orgin 'Spectacular'. Not only was he chosen for the Victorian team but was best midfielder of the night. Injury has crueled his last two seasons but, given an injury free run, his form will see him at a A level once more.

Deledio is an A grade player particularly given his age and the fact he has had to shoulder much of the midfield responsibility and tags from an extremely young age. Sure he is still learning to shrug a tag but how many other 20 year old players had to endure the No 1 tag from the opposition week in week out because he was already out teams best ball carrier. That is depressing. Lids needs support and all of a sudden, like Ablett/Swan/Black etc, he will have the room to shine. He is an A grader without a doubt.

Sorry claw I've run out of time but I hope that gives you some debate to stew over 

Stripes

[mightytiges]

Not saying Jack's anywhere near where he want him to be but I'd give him slack. It must have been a nightmare playing as a key forward the way we moved the ball and with little KP support around him so he often got the best defender. 32.27 isn't a great return and he needs to work on his kicking penetration big time to improve his accuracy but still it's a respectable return for a tall forward in his 3rd year playing in a crap side that often had half the number of inside 50s as our opponents. He's way ahead of his 2006 draft KP peers.

Apart from that I don't disagree too much with the rest of Claw's rankings based on our 2009. Not too many Tigers could hold their head up after the year they had.

[Owl]

Claw, mate, I have heard of rose coloured glasses but, what the hell colour are yours? (shades of depressing shizer?) I feel like slashing my wrists reading that.  On a good note the orange boys will be a little prompter this year as they have been training harder than ever.

my glasses are plain old reading glasses that enables me to see clearly.

cmon owl you obviously disagree with a lot of what i say but you dont say exactly what you disagree with. im more than happy to debate the pros and cons of whats been written its what this is about but it seems very few are prepared to discuss our players at all in terms of rating them and deciding whos an established player or not.

i will say again theres nothing pessimistic in the assesments its where imo each player is currently at im not saying many players wont improve far from it.but there are some who wont is that being negative i dont think so its honest and realistic.

im no expert and i will have ratings that are wrong for and against players.

i must say im disappointed at the lack of debate on what has been said. no one prepared to give an opinion on this around here it seems.

Oh its ok I think your a little harsh on some of em is all.  I might be a bit optomistic on Riewoldt and I think Tambo has turned into good player, he was one of the few bright lights this year for us, he played with confidence and class.  I think Lids is bit better rated too.  I ll do the others later I gotta take my mog to the vet he ate something unsavory.

[Smokey]

Thought I would give my ratings from 2 perspectives - current and potential.  No comments attached but I'll debate any replies.  Anyone who hasn't played a senior game is automatically F because they can't be anything else and there are only a few current D's and no E's because of our cleanout - that removed most of the ones who I would have rated at that.

              Current    Potential
Astbury       F               B+
Browne       F               A
Collins        C               B+
Connors      E               B
Contin        F                B+
Cotchin       B-             A
Cousins      A               A
Dea           F               B+
Deledio      A-              A+
Edwards     C-              B+
Farmer       E               B
Foley         B               A
Gilligan      F               B
Gourdis      F               B
Graham      D              B
Griffiths     F                A
Grimes      F                B
Hicks         F               B
Hislop        D              B
Jackson      B               A-
King          D              C
Martin        F               A
McGuane    B-               A-
McMahon    D+             C
Moore        C               B
Morton       B-              B+
Nahas        C               B+
Nason        F               B+
O'Reilly      F                B
Polak         D               C
Newman     B-              B
Polo           C               B+
Post           D-              A
Rance        D+             B       
Riewoldt     B-              A
Roberts       F               B+
Simmonds  C-              C
Tambling     B-             A+
Taylor        F               B+
Thomson    D               B
Thursfield   C-              B-
Tuck           B-             B
Vickery       D              A
Webberley   F               B+
Westhoff     F               A
White         C+             B

[the claw]

Claw, mate, I have heard of rose coloured glasses but, what the hell colour are yours? (shades of depressing shizer?) I feel like slashing my wrists reading that.  On a good note the orange boys will be a little prompter this year as they have been training harder than ever.

my glasses are plain old reading glasses that enables me to see clearly.

cmon owl you obviously disagree with a lot of what i say but you dont say exactly what you disagree with. im more than happy to debate the pros and cons of whats been written its what this is about but it seems very few are prepared to discuss our players at all in terms of rating them and deciding whos an established player or not.

i will say again theres nothing pessimistic in the assesments its where imo each player is currently at im not saying many players wont improve far from it.but there are some who wont is that being negative i dont think so its honest and realistic.

im no expert and i will have ratings that are wrong for and against players.

i must say im disappointed at the lack of debate on what has been said. no one prepared to give an opinion on this around here it seems.

Oh its ok I think your a little harsh on some of em is all.  I might be a bit optomistic on Riewoldt and I think Tambo has turned into good player, he was one of the few bright lights this year for us, he played with confidence and class.  I think Lids is bit better rated too.  I ll do the others later I gotta take my mog to the vet he ate something unsavory.

hope the mog is okay.
 i dont think we are that far apart.
i dont think you are optimistic on riewoldt he will be a good player. tambling showed he can play and lids has been very good i think he will be elite. its just that atm i dont believe any of them are where we expect them to finish up. and they may not get there who knows.

look i dont want to be preaching to people but you just dont come into the afl and automatically become an A grade player. you earn that rating by playing very good footy at a consistant level for yrs.
to me a grade is also about being good/very good/elite in all areas or most areas  not just one or two. its this that has me rating a few a little lower than some expect.

[the claw]

Hello all - just back from holidays. 

Claw - I agree with much of what you have said but believe some of your rating are a little askew.

I'm assuming you are rating players on current form rather than potential so I will do the same. Given our 2009 ladder positioning and current average age of the list you probably are being too kind. In reality we are a failure and so when you compare most of our players to the rest of the competition you could easily argue that they are B/S or failures also...but I don't necessarily believe this is the case. Individual players weaknesses are always more exposed when they do not have the appropriate supportive structures around them - this has been the problem with our team for so long. Other teams have players who are weaker than many of ours yet they have the sufficient structures and talent around them to hide these deficiencies. So perhaps once our players have a straight forward, team orientated game plan and structures around them their flaws will be less noticeable and their strengths exemplified. We'll see once Harwicks game plan is fully established but I digress - back to the individual players....

I think you are too hard on McGuane for a start. McGuane is our best backman by a long way. You may say this is more of an indication how poor the rest of the backline and that could well be correct but he has the pace and spoiling skills to trouble any forward. He needs to increase in body size but he is deceptively strong. Watching him at training he was a standout in one on one muscle work and spoiling. His foot disposal can let him down but, as I inferred above, this is highlighted by lack of running support in the backline. I would rate him a B and lock him into the CHB position with good rebounders and uses by foot flanking him.

I think your assessment of Foley was also a little harsh. Perhaps if you were basing it purely on this year given his unjuries yet you rated Cousins as an A when he miised much of the year due to injuries also. At full fitness Foley was proven to be one of the best midfielders in the league and was a standout during the State of Orgin 'Spectacular'. Not only was he chosen for the Victorian team but was best midfielder of the night. Injury has crueled his last two seasons but, given an injury free run, his form will see him at a A level once more.

Deledio is an A grade player particularly given his age and the fact he has had to shoulder much of the midfield responsibility and tags from an extremely young age. Sure he is still learning to shrug a tag but how many other 20 year old players had to endure the No 1 tag from the opposition week in week out because he was already out teams best ball carrier. That is depressing. Lids needs support and all of a sudden, like Ablett/Swan/Black etc, he will have the room to shine. He is an A grader without a doubt.

Sorry claw I've run out of time but I hope that gives you some debate to stew over 

Stripes

hope you had a good lay off. lucky you.

 mcguane without going into a bag fest on him let me just say we will have to agree to disagree i just cant see it with this bloke. yep he gives his all is probably one of our better kpds  but it means jack. we have to upgrade on the mcguanes if we are to improve.

foley - ive rated him upper core list to very good. maybe a bit harsh but i have my reasons.

for me nathan is ordinary or better to say  has improved and become averge in the single most important skill in the game.kicking. hes no buckley or gibbs or ricciuto etc. the hurt factor with his outside work is not elite its passable.its this  more than anything that has me not rating him an elite player.

his inside work has been very good and a couple of seasons back elite. he generally goes and gets it and usually finds a target when dishing it out. hes a dangerous player because with his pace and run he can play inside and out. his smaller body imo has seen him play more and more outside or that may be injury. imo he regularly drops away to core list standard but he does throw in very good to elite  games.
injury free and going well will probably see me reassess his rating.

Deledio - hmm again maybe a little harsh on brett. hes been very good consistently. but i dont think hes achieved what a judd or ablett or hird and a few others have. im like most though i think he will be an elite player and it will get easier for him when he gets some quality around him.still has some areas to work on as well.

in reality we arent that far apart on foley and deledio.

[mightytiges]

Thought I would give my ratings from 2 perspectives - current and potential.  No comments attached but I'll debate any replies.  Anyone who hasn't played a senior game is automatically F because they can't be anything else and there are only a few current D's and no E's because of our cleanout - that removed most of the ones who I would have rated at that.

              Current    Potential
Astbury       F               B+
Browne       F               A
Collins        C               B+
Connors      E               B
Contin        F                B+
Cotchin       B-             A
Cousins      A               A
Dea           F               B+
Deledio      A-              A+
Edwards     C-              B+
Farmer       E               B
Foley         B               A
Gilligan      F               B
Gourdis      F               B
Graham      D              B
Griffiths     F                A
Grimes      F                B
Hicks         F               B
Hislop        D              B
Jackson      B               A-
King          D              C
Martin        F               A
McGuane    B-               A-
McMahon    D+             C
Moore        C               B
Morton       B-              B+
Nahas        C               B+
Nason        F               B+
O'Reilly      F                B
Polak         D               C
Newman     B-              B
Polo           C               B+
Post           D-              A
Rance        D+             B       
Riewoldt     B-              A
Roberts       F               B+
Simmonds  C-              C
Tambling     B-             A+
Taylor        F               B+
Thomson    D               B
Thursfield   C-              B-
Tuck           B-             B
Vickery       D              A
Webberley   F               B+
Westhoff     F               A
White         C+             B

Smokey does "Potential" = optimistic best case scenario for us?

Because with that many potential A and B graders on our list we would eventually dominate the next 10-15 years when the list matures .

The older guys like Jordie and Kingy should have almost identical "current" and "potential" rankings as they have reached their potential and if anything will go backwards  rather than improve.

I agree with most of your "current" rankings smokey. Shows why I believe we'll finish bottom 2 this year. Too many young and inexperienced players who could be anything or may not and of the few experience Tigers we have most aren't up to standard and will be cut at year's end.

[Smokey]

Smokey does "Potential" = optimistic best case scenario for us?

Because with that many potential A and B graders on our list we would eventually dominate the next 10-15 years when the list matures .

The older guys like Jordie and Kingy should have almost identical "current" and "potential" rankings as they have reached their potential and if anything will go backwards  rather than improve.

I agree with most of your "current" rankings smokey. Shows why I believe we'll finish bottom 2 this year. Too many young and inexperienced players who could be anything or may not and of the few experience Tigers we have most aren't up to standard and will be cut at year's end.

Yes MT, potential means how far I think they can go given all their individual planets aligning.  New coach, new attitude, maturity etc etc all could come into play in turning their current rating to their potential rating - same goes for McMahon and King - they all would have some room for improvement unless they are at the end of their career age-wise, but obviously some have far more scope for improvement than others.