Author Topic: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)  (Read 5141 times)

Offline one-eyed

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Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« on: February 06, 2010, 11:39:28 PM »
Demons rule draft
Jay Clark
Sunday Herald Sun
February 07, 2010


Rankings

1. Melbourne
2. West Coast
3. North Melbourne
4. Essendon
5. Carlton
....
8. Richmond
....
12. Collingwood
13. Bulldogs
14. St Kilda
15. Fremantle
16. Sydney

-----------------------------

IF QUALITY drafting is the key to building premiership teams, this might be the next best thing to a crystal ball.

Melbourne analytics expert Stephen Gloury has developed a formula to assess the recent draft performances of each AFL club.

While the stock response from every club on draft night is they "couldn't be happier", the reality is some do it better than others.

And as Geelong came out huge winners in the 1999-2001 draft period, Gloury's analysis of the 2004-07 era points to an impending shift at the top of the ladder.

His research suggests Melbourne, West Coast and North Melbourne, ranked No.1, 2 and 3 on his draft performance chart, have enjoyed good value for their picks as they head toward a premiership resurgence around 2012-14.

The key factor in Melbourne's high rating was a bumper '07 draft in which it was deemed to have excelled by picking midfield guns Cale Morton and Jack Grimes, plus No.53 selection Kyle Cheney and 2004 rookie Aaron Davey.

The club's recent strike rate is also high as only one (Isaac Weetra) of the 10 players the Dees selected in the '06 and '07 drafts is considered to have performed poor-below average, relative to his draft group.

A banker by trade and avid football fan, Gloury brainstormed the concept in conjunction with an AFL club, which encouraged Gloury to process it further. Previously, he assisted a VFL club in its statistics department.

"The logic behind it has been well received by the clubs so far," Gloury said.

"Certainly the clubs at the top of the report have drafted well with the picks they have received."

Conversely, the report nominates Fremantle and Sydney, ranked 15th and 16th, as the paupers in that period, due to a glut of below average youngsters.

While Sydney has enjoyed much success trading and recycling players in recent times, according to Gloury's formula, the Swans' '05 and '06 drafts were shockers. In that period, 10 of 12 players picked were rated poor-below average under Gloury's formula.

Essendon, in fourth, and Carlton, fifth, received glowing endorsements, while Richmond, a club often criticised for its drafting in the Terry Wallace years, finished mid-table in eighth.

It is worth noting maligned midfield pair Richard Tambling and Brett Deledio have statistically outperformed many of their peers of the same position type and draft group, with both earning above average value ratings.

Tambling suffers from a constant comparison with Hawthorn superstar key forward Lance Franklin, taken with the next pick in the '04 draft and was rated an elite player.


Hawthorn might have ranked higher but for its failed pick on Mitch Thorp and the injuries that have set back Max Bailey and Beau Muston.

Geelong's performance, also, was hampered somewhat by some strikeouts in the 2007 draft.

If there is a level of statistical bias, which is acknowledged in the report, it counts against the likes of St Kilda (14th), Western Bulldogs (13th) and Collingwood (12th), whose recent premiership tilts have not afforded its young players as much opportunity as teams lower on the AFL ladder.

The model is not without its quirks, as it is based on, albeit refined, Champion Data rankings points and doesn't factor in team game styles.

But as one club's recruiting chief said: "You add your own subjective assessments as well, obviously, but even by itself the research is pretty insightful, in terms of looking back on what you've picked.

"This is probably the first real report of its kind. It's the first time something like this has been done, or at least put out there and it's probably not a bad effort.

"What you've got to remember about it, though, is that it doesn't take into account trades, which are also pretty important to clubs' success."

Information from the 2008-09 drafts have not been factored into the report as the '08 draftees have played only one season and the '09 class not at all. Their development is considered too raw and their data too unreliable at this stage.

The 50-page dossier, which took more than 150 hours to develop, has been endorsed and used to help develop the list strategies at two AFL clubs.

What clubs have acknowledged is the report helps determine whether clubs have got "value" for their picks.

It sets an expectation, based on specific categorical averages of recent players' performances, for what clubs should expect from their range of draft picks.

Essentially, it provides a rough indication of whether players, depending on their position type and what number they were drafted at, have progressed and performed as well as the club would have hoped.

Pre-season and Rookie drafts have also been calculated. However, players with AFL experience who have been picked in the pre-season draft such as Nick Stevens have not been included, as they are deemed to skew the normal league average.

Likewise, mature-age players in the 2007 national draft, such as Harry Taylor, were also excluded. This was because mature-age players are usually advanced compared with their peers in their first season.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/demons-rule-draft/story-e6frf9jf-1225827457502

Offline Jacosh

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 11:18:39 AM »
Not so interesting that a Melbourne fan has formulated this and Melbourne have the best results but are still sitting at the bottom of the ladder.  I'll wait and see how they progress over the next 3-4 years i think.
It still leaves a lot to be desired as far as im concerned, leaving out Mature picks as well as trading and game style, plus the usual things that happen in life like injuries and any emotional problems that can affect any player. 
Anyone with enough time on their hands can come up with a formula to make whatever team they follow look like the best.

the claw

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 02:17:04 PM »
hmm
04
Deledio -  pick 1 could we get it wrong.very good player.
Tambling - pick 4 taken a while has only just become a decent player.
Meyer -  pick 12 gone what a waste.
Pattison - pick  16 gone what a waste.
Polo - pick  20 in his 6th yr and yet to establish himself looks to be a poor pick for where it was at.
Mcguane - pick - 36 average player at best.
Limbach -  pick 51 gone.
Graham - pick 67 gone.
take deledio out and its a shambles. so many early picks and so little reward.so little quality.

05
Oakley-nichols - pick 8 gone sheesh.
Hughes - pick 24 gone.
Casserly - pick 40 gone.
just 3 very decent picks all inside top 40 and not one player from them.

06
Riewoldt - pick 13 a kpp and promising.yet to establish himself.
edwards - pick 26 skinny small who may or may not get there.promising.
Connors - pick 58 has struggled so far has talent may or may not get there.
Peterson - pick 60 gonski.
Collins - pick 73 not there yet but could be the pick of them all.
simply put its still to early to say. but all entering yr 4 need to take a step forward.

07
Cotchin - pick 2 looks a very talented player you cant plan for injury.
Rance - pick 18 just his 3rd yr but his skillset is of grave concern may not make it.
Putt - pick 51 gone sheesh.
again just 3 nd picks  one a monty. one 50/50 and one gone. really decent picks two top 20  i have to say fail.we got one player of quality.and this in a yr we recieved the spoon.

i have to say what ever the rating system its real kind to us.

Offline The Glove

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 05:49:22 PM »
That's all very good Claw. The problem is that you concntrate on richmond alone.  The full study shows we did better than 8 other teams.  Now with our low picks we probably should have doen better than 8th but the thing is other clubs and Iinclude Geelong, Collingwood and Sydney have drafted shockingly from time to time.  It aint an exact science andwe are not alone in our stupidity form tiem to time!

Its just that they also struck gold as in Geelong around 2000 and with father/son picks.  Give Scarlett and Ablett to tiges and the whole drafting scenario looks different.

FWIW I think this last lot has a few promising kids.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 06:48:14 PM »
Eagles would be my No.1. They have made the most of Judd and Cuz leaving and have drafted a number of good kids from recent drafts. They'll probably be back in finals this year. A great effort for a club that won the flag only 4 years ago and played in back-to-back GFs.

On its own our drafting between 2004-07 was ordinary and it was a disgrace we had so few picks in 2005, 07 and 08 for a club that was meant to be rebuilding from scratch. But other clubs didn't do well in that period either which is why we are ranked 8th.


eg. Collingwood:

2004
10. Chris Egan ..... gone (their JON)
23. Sean Rusling .... injury prone and has done nothing yet. Just 17 games in 5 years.
37. traded for Chad Morrison ...... gone  (Eagles picked up Mark LeCras)
39. Travis Cloke (F/S)
55. Adam Iacobucci .... gone

2005
2. Dale Thomas ........ overrated
5. Scott Pendlebury ...... a gun
21. Danny Stanley .... gone
23. Ryan Cook ......... played just 2 games last year
37. John Anthony ....... 48 goals last year but bombed big time in the finals.

2006
8. Ben Reid ......... done nothing yet and still playing VFL
10. Nathan Brown ...... good first year but copped a knee injury last year and only played 3 games after R11
28. Chris Dawes ....... Pies' fans think he is the second coming but he's done nothing yet at AFL level
44. Brad idiot ....... a decent 2009 but now injured
63. Tyson Goldsack ..... good first year but hasn't set the world on fire since

2007
14. traded for Cameron Wood ........ ruck stocks poor so have had to trade another first round pick for Jolly (Jack Grimes was picked up by Melbourne)
31. John McCarthy .......... played just one game
47. Toby Thoolen ............  gone
61. Jaxson Barham (F/S) .......played just six games

The Pies have drafted away their future since in the 2008 and 2009 drafts topping up. Malthouse has screwed Buckley chasing a flag in the next 2 years lol.
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the claw

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 11:18:55 PM »
That's all very good Claw. The problem is that you concntrate on richmond alone.  The full study shows we did better than 8 other teams.  Now with our low picks we probably should have doen better than 8th but the thing is other clubs and Iinclude Geelong, Collingwood and Sydney have drafted shockingly from time to time.  It aint an exact science andwe are not alone in our stupidity form tiem to time!

Its just that they also struck gold as in Geelong around 2000 and with father/son picks.  Give Scarlett and Ablett to tiges and the whole drafting scenario looks different.

FWIW I think this last lot has a few promising kids.
hmm i believe im pretty fair and balanced on all sides. i mainly concentrate on us for obvious reasons. but lets see you mention  geelong a side that has made finals every yr since 04 bar one. so clearly they have used much later picks.
04
prismal - 32 they didnt get this one wrong he was a casualty of salary cap pressure and a badly timed injury.
ablett - f/s 48. again a bit stiff who was to guess he would give it away.premiership player.
egan - 62 an AA who is now lost to the game thru injury again they got it right you cant plan for injury.

sheesh talk about running over a chinaman circumstance cost them 2 really good players and ablett imo would have been a decent player as well if he had his heart in it.

05
varcoe - 15 like tambling has been a work in progress only just starting to properly establish himself. sheesh we took jon.
west -  31 a ruckman is now borderline may have been delisted if mumford had stayed.still ruckmen take time.
owen - 35 gonski.
gamble 47 looks okay not there yet but hes still on a list.
stokes - dont rate him but he gets regular games  at a very strong club may be gonski now.
have to stop here will get back. but sheesh just on these two yrs  geelong with much later picks have killed us.

 

Offline Smokey

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 09:18:38 AM »

.............but sheesh just on these two yrs  geelong with much later picks have killed us.


Not saying it's your opinion Claw but to the forum in general who keep sprouting the importance of tanking for high picks, I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's not the number of pick that you get, it's the effort and nouse you apply to choosing the right player that matters in the end.

Offline wayne

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 10:01:46 AM »
Not so interesting that a Melbourne fan has formulated this and Melbourne have the best results but are still sitting at the bottom of the ladder.

If anyone saw the article in the paper, they also had a few photos as examples.

Tambling which had the caption 'above average player' and then there was Cale Morton who had the caption 'elite' because he'd played 40 of 44 games...

This Gloury fella is just like a Big Footy poster who overrates his own and doesn't rate anyone else!!
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Offline Stripes

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 11:15:15 AM »
This type of 'ranking - system' is little more than a speculative exercise that is open to all sorts of bias. You can twist data to paint any sort of picture you wish to paint, I do it all the time at work, but ultimately it is results that tell the true story. The whole footy world can only make informed guesses at best, biased analysis at worst which is clearly what this fellow has done in elements.

Players and teams are always surprising experts which is why players such as Hird, who went so low in the draft, are so remembered. Every year players out perform their draft order and it's not until their retirement that you can make an accurate judgment.

Realistically I could say Tambling is an elite player and use stats to back me up and my friend could just as confidently claim he is a below average player using other indicators and be equally correct. This 'ranking' used one set of data as an guide but who's the say if you used other data you would not come to a completely divergent conclusion. Until a consistent and universally agreed set of indicators is set in place, IMHO  no such ranking system can be taken seriously.

While I feel we have definitely made some blunders along the journey, as Smokey suggested, were they drafting or development blunders or a little of both? What about coaching? What about leadership? It's a very small window and narrow focus to draw any conclusions and ultimately until we reach 2012 - 2015, we won't know who has drafted, developed and recruited the best.

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Offline Francois Jackson

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 11:35:06 AM »
Not so interesting that a Melbourne fan has formulated this and Melbourne have the best results but are still sitting at the bottom of the ladder.

If anyone saw the article in the paper, they also had a few photos as examples.

Tambling which had the caption 'above average player' and then there was Cale Morton who had the caption 'elite' because he'd played 40 of 44 games...

This Gloury fella is just like a Big Footy poster who overrates his own and doesn't rate anyone else!!

Morton may not be elite now but he will be. The guy can bloody play

Sadly tambling will only ever be above average at best, not his fault but thats just what he is
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 03:12:43 PM »
Not so interesting that a Melbourne fan has formulated this and Melbourne have the best results but are still sitting at the bottom of the ladder.

If anyone saw the article in the paper, they also had a few photos as examples.

Tambling which had the caption 'above average player' and then there was Cale Morton who had the caption 'elite' because he'd played 40 of 44 games...

This Gloury fella is just like a Big Footy poster who overrates his own and doesn't rate anyone else!!
Out of interest did they have any Tigers as elite? Lids?
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Offline wayne

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 03:19:35 PM »
Out of interest did they have any Tigers as elite? Lids?

Judging by the quote below, he's ranked above average.

It is worth noting maligned midfield pair Richard Tambling and Brett Deledio have statistically outperformed many of their peers of the same position type and draft group, with both earning above average value ratings.

In the 'draft ladder', it said that Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance have star potential.

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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 03:53:47 PM »
Out of interest did they have any Tigers as elite? Lids?

Judging by the quote below, he's ranked above average.

It is worth noting maligned midfield pair Richard Tambling and Brett Deledio have statistically outperformed many of their peers of the same position type and draft group, with both earning above average value ratings.
In the 'draft ladder', it said that Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance have star potential.

Then the rankings are not only biased but also inconsistent from draft to draft. So Lids with two B&Fs and the rising star award gets "above average" (fair enough btw) because from his draft year Buddy is a stuff; yet despite Rioli outperforming his year level peers so far and being a key member of a premiership side, Morton in a dual-wooden spoon side is classed as "elite" ???. Laughable to have Morton as 'elite". Kreuzer and Dangerfield are ahead of him also and Cotch will go past him as well if Trent has a full season this year.

As us yep Cotch and Jack have shown their ability but Rance is yet to show any star potential. Still far too early.
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Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 06:10:35 PM »
load of rubbish ranking system

Offline WA Tiger

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Re: Richmond's 2004-07 drafting ranked 8th (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 06:22:21 PM »
Gee when you look at those lists not many make it do they!!
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