Rating Mcguane as a KPD aginst his peers

[MADTIGER2010]

thats just it though. i dont rate him as either kp or running defender.

and what development have a good look at him  skinny legs narrow hips  long torso  your right he will never  be a rutten or have the tools to genuinly match it with the big boys.

if people think hes an option for a running defender  well  i will give up. what attributes does one need to play this role  and how many does mcguane have and do well. its mindboggling that people keep rating this scmuck.

as far as your pics go in 07 he officially weighed 86kg. in 09 he weighed you guessed it 86kg ive hardly seen any improvement in this area outside of his first season and the weights given for each yr back this up.

You should know by now list measurements are quite often a couple of years old. You keep ignoring the fact Mcguane very rarely has had more than 3 goals kicks on him in the last 2 years. That's the evidence which proves Mcguane is a very capable young defender with improvement to come 

[WA Tiger]

Well I have a lot of time for McGuane, he has proven himself with us and we missed him like hell last weekend against the Hawks.

[tiga]

Claw, to answer your question on Luke's abilities as a running defender, he has good leg speed, aggression, determination, backs himself, excellent vertical leap, extremely fit with good stamina and spoils well. He does have one drawback and that is his disposal by foot which is not the greatest due to an awkward kicking technique. At this stage, I won't go as far as saying he will be AA but he will continue to improve and will be a valuable defender for the club in the years to come.

Re his weight, I'm pretty sure that he has put on more than 10kg since being recruited in 2004 where he weighed 76kg.

[Mr Magic]

Against his Richmond peers right now he's our best.
Against the league's best, not so good.

[Infamy]

Nathan Bock will be 27 at the start of this season after being drafted in 2001 and didn't have a proper break out year and full season until he was 24 years old in his 7th year (and he bashes his girlfriend)
Luke McGuane had a comparable season to Bock's 7th year in 2009, he had his first year of 22 games, got just as much of the ball and he was only in his 5th year as a 22 years old.
He was also in a far weaker team with far less help down back from team mates, yet was 2 years younger and had less years in the system.
I understand Bock has had some injury, yet McGuane's first year was pretty much a write off after breaking his upper arm in a match which finished his season.

Stop comparing our kids to mature players from top sides when they are still kids. You do this consistently. I understand that this is the level we want them to get to, however we can't expect them to be there instantly, it doesn't work that way.

hmm interesting take. why do we always have to gloss over  things in favour of our players.

in 2001 he was busy representing sa at the u18 champs. bock was promoted from the rookie list to the list proper for 2003 at age 20.
 he spent the  03 season at woodville where he established himself at chb against men.

he made his senior debut rnd 5 2004. and stayed for the remainder of the yr.

his 05 season was outstanding holding down chb and played a big role in their rise to finals. all this in just his 3rd yr on the list proper starting the season with just 18 games to his credit and at age 22.

his 06 was ruined with stress fractures to his lower back he managed just 7 games taking his games tally to 41.  but when he came back late in the yr he showed his versatility  by kicking goals up forward.

07 he played mainly  forward  kicking 29 goals had a very consistant yr.

08 outstanding won their b/f  and passed the 50 game mark. AA at age 25.

09  sheesh and you say mcguane had a comparable yr now that is laughable. while i will concede mcguane had some good games in the 22 he played  the comparison between the two is typical over rating our own stuff.
i believe Bock missed 8 games thru injury or suspension and the two finals.  even in missing 8 games bock would have it all over mcguane stats wise. and this holding down a kp.
 mcguane is no baby its laughable to lump him in the kid category sheesh he enters his 6th yr after being mostly mediocre in his first 5. his record is ordinary and hes always been a class level below bock.i know which one i would take at any stage of their respective careers.

As I said, he was drafted in 2001, not sure what the fact he was playing U18s for SA has to do with anything
Didn't break into the Crows senior side for 2 years, 2002 & 2003
Got the call up in 2004 as a forward under Gary Ayres and played 10 games for 8 goals until Neil Craig took over and send him into defence
2005 he missed the first 3rd of the season, however his year was solid, however it helps when you have that year's AA full back in Ben Rutten to help you out, something McGuane doesn't have and never has
2006 was pretty much a write off due to injury

So as I said, Rutten didn't have a full and proper break out season until 2007, as a 24 year old. His 2005 was good, however he didn't play the whole year and had a lot of help
McGuane is still only 22 and doesn't have a full back like Ben Rutten to help him out

Which gets me back to the point of comparing a 22 year old who you don't believe is a kpd who has been playing as a kpd with little assistance from team mates and doing a pretty decent job of doing it considering what he has to work with, to a 27 year old from a team who has been playing finals every year since 2005 along side an AA full back, a Brownlow medalist and a future AA back pocket.

Give me a break, your bias is just off the scale on this one

lol and you accuse me of bias  like i said why do people have to put the best possible spin on our players and make excuses.
one thing for sure we disagree  and one thing for sure i would have taken bock over mcguane  at any stage during their respective careers. ive never had any time for poor kicks poor decision makers who are terribly undersized for the role they have to do.

buy the way do you think luke will be AA this yr you obviously rate him better than bock and after all other  defenders like bowden managed to make AA  in a crap side.

Bock didn't make AA until 2008 in his 7th year in the system. He was also playing for a side that finished 5th at the end of the year. Given McGuane is about to play his 6th season and doesn't play for a side thats going to come 5th in the next 2 years then it may be tough, but at least give the bloke a chance.

[the claw]

lol again. granted he was rookie listed and thus was in the system. yep rookie listed in 01. so his first season 02 was spent at his sanfl club where he  had a real solid season. again he missed games thru injury  broken thumb.
his 03  for a skinny kpp was outstanding  after being thrown around in different positions  he ended up in the second half of the yr holding down chb and and becoming a key component to woodville.

04 he forced his way into the crows backline  which consisted of bassett, hart, smart, mcgregor, the newly got 22 yr old stevens, and a young ben rutten who i believe was drafted as a forward..  he played 18 games pretty much a full season if playing 22 games qualifies as a full season i would suggest not a lot of players each yr play full seasons.
the simple fact is since rnd 5 04 whenever bock has been fit and available he has been  pretty much played. nice spin anyway.

05 he played 16 games again to me basically a full season. he missed a few early with injury and being made to work his way back in. one could argue i suppose he spent the first half of the season reestablishing himself. also  his second afl season, yep second as many do  take it from the time they debut. now thats a bit of spin.
but i suppose coming of a rookie list counts for nothing.

 he held down chb  and the plaudits coming out of the crows camp and footy comentators alike was things like outstanding yr.
 here was a bloke who came thru the rookie system had to outplay established finals footballers to get a game he not only did this but shone in his 4th yr not his 7th as you would have it.
there has never been queries about his talent or his skills or his ability to perform the roles hes given never.
 unlike the mediocre comparison you put up and make excuses for.

i wont go on   we all know 06 was destroyed thru injury.
 07 he was asked to play forward which he did well playing 22 games and then back to his chb   position in 08 where he made AA,

as for age comparisons and what each had done i think it pretty pertinant that games be taken into account as well. after 5 seasons 02 - 06 bock played 41 games. mcguane 05 - 09 54 games.

the main factor i use for rating our players is strengths and weakness mcguane is not a whipping boy  or the lone ranger to me he just does not measure up.

Against his Richmond peers right now he's our best.
Against the league's best, not so good.

and this is testament to the quality of tall defenders we have rather than ability. do we persevere with someone who does not stack up against the rest and is not likely to in the future, or do we do what has to be done and try to find a young player that will.
again i will say in moving forward mcguane is not the answer. he may well be one of the better defenders we have, no arguments there but i dont see him as part of the future if we are  to become a power. we are bottoming out and in rebuild now is the time to play the kids  and try to find the better option that is needed.

[Smokey]

The trouble with using Bock as a measuring stick is that most sides will come up short - most sides don't have AA tall running defenders.  We should always try and upgrade on every player in every position and in that regard McGuane is no different however in the scheme of things he is far from our worst player or weakest link in the 22, and if he becomes that then we will be in a much stronger position than we currently are.

[Infamy]

I just think it's a little weird that claw doesn't think Luke should be played as a key position defender, but then compares him to an older All Australian centre half back.

[the claw]

I just think it's a little weird that claw doesn't think Luke should be played as a key position defender, but then compares him to an older All Australian centre half back.

lol i think you should ask smokie the bandit to answer that one.

[Infamy]

Well you're the one who thought it needed its own thread

[Mr Magic]

Have we seen the best of Luke? As he has only just turned 23, you couldn't say definitively that we have.
So I do think that comparing him with the older CHB's in the comp is a touch unfair. Not entirely unfair but certainly not a level playing field.

Fairer to compare him against the peers.
The way I see it is Luke is really up against Moore and Thursfield for that third tall role and personally think he is in front of the other two.
One thing that I really think Luke has over Thursty as a third tall is his ability to break the lines.
Whilst at times Wil may be considered a safer option, I have never seen Thursfield take on opposition forward lines in the way Luke does. He is a stopper only and that limits his effectiveness in the modern game.
Moore has regressed & he is not in my best 22 right now despite solid skills. 2008 form is looking like a blip right now.
Whilst awkward looking, McGuane is an effective defender who can play on talls/smalls and who has offensive abilities also.
Little wonder he played every game for us last year. He is currently one of our most valuable players.

Whichever role McGuane ends up playing over the long term will certainly be made easier as the midfield becomes more dominant.

He's already achieved far more than his early detractors thought him capable of and may still be on the up.
If we unearth a better option great but I like him despite his questionable disposal and hope he has a great year in 2010.

[Penelope]

Regarding Thurfield, has he been playing that role because thats just the type of player he is, or because he was being instructed to play that way? More often than not he would find himself on a key forward, meaning if he left his man and there was a turnover down the field he risked his opponent getting an easy possession and goal, thus feeling the wrath of the feral hordes.

[the claw]

Well you're the one who thought it needed its own thread

but im not the one who insisted mcguane be treated the same as moore because of similar height and size comparisons.  i was told  if i rate moore a running back and not  a kp  i had to do it with mcguane. so ive gone along with it.
part of the reason for this thread was to find out who and how many thought him a genuine kpp so i could then move onto  comparing him with running backs if most didnt think him a kpp.

even though i think mcguane  performs the  kp role better than he does or would as a running defender. i am looking for much better than what he gives at both. he is truly a glass half full.

to me he has been basically our chb but with jayden post now earmarked for this role  i ask what is his role in the team.
some are saying running defender and im saying what a joke only the truly paraochial would even contemplate it.
to me hes in competition with thusfield for fb  but i have no doubt that thursfield is the better deep defensive back.
so we come back to the running role. well his skills say he should never ever be asked to perform this role.

look i havent called him a dud  or said hes hopeless  hes servicable doing certain jobs  but im adamant we should be aiming for better more rounded players than luke mcguane  and many like him.

i will lay of him for now  we will see where hes at at the end of his 6th yr.

[Penelope]

hes servicable doing certain jobs  but im adamant we should be aiming for better more rounded players than luke mcguane  and many like him.

That sums it nicely claw. He is servicable in certain roles and as such has a place in the starting 22, in the short term. Hopefully he can become more than servicable in the longer term but if someone else can take his place as an upgrade, well and good.

[the claw]

hes servicable doing certain jobs  but im adamant we should be aiming for better more rounded players than luke mcguane  and many like him.

That sums it nicely claw. He is servicable in certain roles and as such has a place in the starting 22, in the short term. Hopefully he can become more than servicable in the longer term but if someone else can take his place as an upgrade, well and good.

the only trouble with HOPING he can become more servicable is you arent playing someone who may be better.
jeezuzuuuss  many dont even want to see post play back. 

its simple assess him  and make the judgement  on his 5 yrs to date weather hes  a part of the future or can significantly improve. he will be a typical rfc player  7 or 9 yrs of hoping  and then delist.

i could understand keeping him if we were finals bound and he could perform the odd service but we arent and we desperately need to find  good solid well rounded  talls. enough of the glass half fulls already they have killed us as a club for long enough.