Author Topic: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?  (Read 33449 times)

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2010, 07:31:18 PM »
MT where would you say the weaknesses are on our list that need addressing with top picks? Not so long ago I would have pointed to any number of areas, the most glaring being a lack of key defenders. But with Astbury, Rance and Post developing well, along with Gourdis and Grimes still waiting in the wings, I think we're right down back.
Then there were the lack of key forwards. But Jack has suddenly rocketed up another level, while Griffiths is showing signs of developing,and Astbury and Post looking capable of rotating from CHB through CHF, as well as Westhoff showing consistent form at Coburg.
Then there was that old chestnut the rucks, which everybody was worried about not so long ago. We could probably add another one in the draft. But it's not pressing with the Graham and Vickery combination working well, and Browne pushing for senior selection.
As for our midfield, I'd stack it up against any in the competition.
For mine the thing we're probably still lacking the most is someone to stop little pests like Milne, Betts, and Rioli. Otherwise I reckon if we keep putting games into our existing list, we'll be ready to make our run anytime soon. To hell with begging scraps from a series of compromised drafts all the way up to 2013.
 
My premise is based on wanting us to develop into and become a premiership side and when you look at the premiership sides of the recent past there's quality across every line of the 22 who run out. Rarely there's a dud or ordinary player carried anymore as they are a liability.

Our defence:
I'm still not 100% convinced McGuane, Moore and Thursty will be our tall backs going forward. Sure we currently also have Gourdis, Rance, Post and even Astbury as tall defenders but there are severe question marks over Goo and Rance, Postie hasn't come on yet and has had 2nd year blues and Astbury is on in his first year although has shown promise. I still think we struggle breaking out of a full-press zone as the footskills in our backline aren't reliable enough and lack penetration across the board. It's the reason Lids has had to go back there to combine with Newy to give us quality footskills coming out of defence. We are also undersized down back.

Our midfield:
Probably the strongest part of our current list and we do have potential A-graders in Lids, Cotch, Martin. Add Foley, Tuck, Cuz, Jacko, Collo as our 2nd tier mids. We still need to add more quality. Firstly because IMO the best sides have a dozen quality mids (A and B-graders combined) they can rotate through there. Secondly because we'll need to replace Cuz and Tuck. Thirdly because an injury or two will expose our lack of depth.
Our midfield strength is our in-close contesting and clearance work. We get cut open though by the better sides on the spread once the ball clears the stoppage. Partially that will fix itself as our cubs' fitness improves and they physically mature but we need more class and size to add to Lids, Cotch and Martin.

Our rucks:
Gus and Vickery look okay now to take us forward although both are still learning especially Ty. We should have at least 4 rucks on our list to cover any injuries IMO. Look at Carlton and what has happened with Kreuzer. Browne is still very raw and not a decent possession gatherer. We don't know yet whether he'll become an AFL standard ruckman.

Our forwards:
Still our weakest aspect. Jack's form and bags of goals doesn't hide the fact he is our only reliable goal source each and every week. Jack is also our only confirmed forward going forward. Griffiths, Astbury, Nason, Taylor and co. are only in their first year. Way too early to judge whether they'll become A-graders or at least decent B-graders at AFL level.

To me the job is so far only half done. We have a young core now to build around which we didn't have 5 years ago but that core needs to be added to (what Ramps calls the second wave of recruiting) to build a quality list that has depth that can take us to a flag. We still are very thin in the 24-28 y.o. age bracket. When you look at our list we really won't mature until 2013 onwards. There's still too many on our list too young and inexperienced to say we have the players to take us up the ladder.

We have also had a dream run with injuries for once (excluding Foley). That won't always be the case. Good sides/lists can cover injuries. If god forbid Jack, Martin or even Gus did a knee or copped some long-term injury we'd be stuffed.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline RollsRoyce

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2010, 07:37:21 PM »


Our defence:
I'm still not 100% convinced McGuane, Moore and Thursty will be our tall backs going forward. Sure we currently also have Gourdis, Rance, Post and even Astbury as tall defenders but there are severe question marks over Goo and Rance, Postie hasn't come on yet and has had 2nd year blues and Astbury is on in his first year although has shown promise. I still think we struggle breaking out of a full-press zone as the footskills in our backline aren't reliable enough and lack penetration across the board. It's the reason Lids has had to go back there to combine with Newy to give us quality footskills coming out of defence. We are also undersized down back.

Our midfield:
Probably the strongest part of our current list and we do have potential A-graders in Lids, Cotch, Martin. Add Foley, Tuck, Cuz, Jacko, Collo as our 2nd tier mids. We still need to add more quality. Firstly because IMO the best sides have a dozen quality mids (A and B-graders combined) they can rotate through there. Secondly because we'll need to replace Cuz and Tuck. Thirdly because an injury or two will expose our lack of depth.
Our midfield strength is our in-close contesting and clearance work. We get cut open though by the better sides on the spread once the ball clears the stoppage. Partially that will fix itself as our cubs' fitness improves and they physically mature but we need more class and size to add to Lids, Cotch and Martin.

Our rucks:
Gus and Vickery look okay now to take us forward although both are still learning especially Ty. We should have at least 4 rucks on our list to cover any injuries IMO. Look at Carlton and what has happened with Kreuzer. Browne is still very raw and not a decent possession gatherer. We don't know yet whether he'll become an AFL standard ruckman.

Our forwards:
Still our weakest aspect. Jack's form and bags of goals doesn't hide the fact he is our only reliable goal source each and every week. Jack is also our only confirmed forward going forward. Griffiths, Astbury, Nason, Taylor and co. are only in their first year. Way too early to judge whether they'll become A-graders or at least decent B-graders at AFL level.

To me the job is so far only half done. We have a young core now to build around which we didn't have 5 years ago but that core needs to be added to (what Ramps calls the second wave of recruiting) to build a quality list that has depth that can take us to a flag. We still are very thin in the 24-28 y.o. age bracket. When you look at our list we really won't mature until 2013 onwards. There's still too many on our list too young and inexperienced to say we have the players to take us up the ladder.

We have also had a dream run with injuries for once (excluding Foley). That won't always be the case. Good sides/lists can cover injuries. If god forbid Jack, Martin or even Gus did a knee or copped some long-term injury we'd be stuffed.
[/quote]
Our Defence:
I'm not convinced McGuane Moore and Thursty will be our key defenders going forward either. But they're so hard to seperate, its difficult to tell which of the three (if any) is the keeper. I think the question mark over Goo was always his kicking, but I've seen a lot of him at Coburg now, and I believe it's no longer a problem. I don't believe he's far from senior action. Neither IMO is Post who is MASSIVE now, and the word was he was struggling for a while with the extra muscle.Rance is improving. I haven't given up on him yet.And from what I've seen of Grimes,(like Astbury) he will be a beauty when he fills out. He might play his first Coburg senior game tomorrow :thumbsup

Our Midfield:
You mention Lids,Cotch, Martin, Foley,Tuck,Cuz, Jacko and Collins, and say that the better teams have 12 mids in their rotations. Well throw in Edwards,Nason,Webberley and Contin (who there are big raps on) and there's your 12. And that's not even mentioning White and King who are now playing great footy.
Of those only Cuz is short-term, as I believe Tucky with his father's longevity genes could play well into his 30's. Sure, we need to keep unearthing them. Even Hardwick said we'll be looking for more outside runners next draft. But do we really need pick 4? There are lots of good players to be had even in the 20 to 40 range if you draft smartly. Nason at 71 is living proof of that.
Our Rucks:
Yes I agree, we need to add another. We need at least four on the list. And with Simmo retiring, if a hole in our list structure opens up we need to close it. But once again, ruckmen tend to be picked up a little later in the draft, unless they're exceptional talents like Kruezer and Natanui. Or big vacancies in our team structure that needed addressing like we did when we took Vickery early.
Our Forwards:
Yes, it's a worry that Jack is being left to shoulder so much of the scoring burden at the minute. But let's see how some of these key position names come up. As well as the likes of Nahas, Roberts,Hicks and Taylor at ground level.
You say the job is only half-finished. But there are still many players on our list we haven't even seen at senior level yet: Contin, Grimes, Gilligan,Gourdis, Hicks,O'Reilly and Westhoff. On top of that, we've only seen glimpses of Taylor, Roberts, Webberley, Griffiths and Dea so far.There is just so much scope for improvement with our current list. With Simmonds gone, McMahon's papers stamped and the likes of Hislop,Thompson,and probably Polo and Morton to go, that's plenty of room for new faces coming into 2011. 
Finally,you say the lack of 24-28 yr olds on our list is a problem. Well there's only 2 ways to fix that. One is to wait for our list to start ageing, obviously. The other is to recruit some older, recycled players. And I'm sure we don't want to go down that path again. It never worked for us in the past. And look at the mess Brisbane are in now taking that approach.   


Offline Stripes

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2010, 08:35:17 PM »
There's a lot of hope in your post RR but can we afford to hope players will come on any more? I don't think we can assume that even two thirds of this years recruits will make it. The average is one third for all recruits so if we can develop half of this years debutants I think we will be doing extremely well.

That said, we still have holes all over the ground particularly in the ruck and forwardline with both areas serverely depleated of talent. Against Power, WC and Brisbane manner of our players and structures have looked good but against more mature and capable opposition our weaknesses will be highlighted again.

Without Jack as a target our forwardline is almost non-existant. Sure Griffiths, Taylor, Astbury and even Westoff could all be forward stars but they could all become our answer to Schulz, Kracker(sp?), Hughes and Pettifier too.

Our Rucks are hanging on by a thread. Gus has really stood up and Vickery showing sensation signs but remember 2006? Simmonds went down, Knoble was injured and young Patto had to shoulder the ruck burden. If any of our ruckman don't develop, which is almost a unbackable certainty, then we are one or two ruckman in the red. A trade may help in future years once our teams has inched up the ladder but this still remains a real concern.

Even our midfield needs more quality. To mentioned a group of potential support players in the middle but we need more talent of the likes of Cotchin and Martin (as I believe Lids will stay in the backline) otherwise these two will be blanketed by taggers every week. All great premiership dynasties have had at least 4 star midfielders in the middle so by my reckoning we are still at least two champion ball users short. This is where Pick 4 would give us the strong possibility of securing one such player while with later picks the probability begins to shorten.

I don't think we has hope players will come on any longer. We need to keep going to the draft to give us as much depth and chance we have that every area on the ground is covered.

Stripes

Ramps

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2010, 09:09:11 PM »

To me the job is so far only half done. We have a young core now to build around which we didn't have 5 years ago but that core needs to be added to (what Ramps calls the second wave of recruiting) to build a quality list that has depth that can take us to a flag.

Its about time that "Multiwave Recruiting" become famous in the AFL.

I may write my own recruiting book

All the way with Multiwave- The Ramps route to success  ;D :lol

Kitchen and other merchandise to arrive shortly!

Offline Stripes

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2010, 09:14:55 PM »

To me the job is so far only half done. We have a young core now to build around which we didn't have 5 years ago but that core needs to be added to (what Ramps calls the second wave of recruiting) to build a quality list that has depth that can take us to a flag.

Its about time that "Multiwave Recruiting" become famous in the AFL.

I may write my own recruiting book

All the way with Multiwave- The Ramps route to success  ;D :lol

Kitchen and other merchandise to arrive shortly!

Ramps Revolutionary Recruiting!  :D

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2010, 10:17:45 PM »
Our Defence:
I'm not convinced McGuane Moore and Thursty will be our key defenders going forward either. But they're so hard to seperate, its difficult to tell which of the three (if any) is the keeper. I think the question mark over Goo was always his kicking, but I've seen a lot of him at Coburg now, and I believe it's no longer a problem. I don't believe he's far from senior action. Neither IMO is Post who is MASSIVE now, and the word was he was struggling for a while with the extra muscle.Rance is improving. I haven't given up on him yet.And from what I've seen of Grimes,(like Astbury) he will be a beauty when he fills out. He might play his first Coburg senior game tomorrow :thumbsup

Our Midfield:
You mention Lids,Cotch, Martin, Foley,Tuck,Cuz, Jacko and Collins, and say that the better teams have 12 mids in their rotations. Well throw in Edwards,Nason,Webberley and Contin (who there are big raps on) and there's your 12. And that's not even mentioning White and King who are now playing great footy.
Of those only Cuz is short-term, as I believe Tucky with his father's longevity genes could play well into his 30's. Sure, we need to keep unearthing them. Even Hardwick said we'll be looking for more outside runners next draft. But do we really need pick 4? There are lots of good players to be had even in the 20 to 40 range if you draft smartly. Nason at 71 is living proof of that.
Our Rucks:
Yes I agree, we need to add another. We need at least four on the list. And with Simmo retiring, if a hole in our list structure opens up we need to close it. But once again, ruckmen tend to be picked up a little later in the draft, unless they're exceptional talents like Kruezer and Natanui. Or big vacancies in our team structure that needed addressing like we did when we took Vickery early.
Our Forwards:
Yes, it's a worry that Jack is being left to shoulder so much of the scoring burden at the minute. But let's see how some of these key position names come up. As well as the likes of Nahas, Roberts,Hicks and Taylor at ground level.
You say the job is only half-finished. But there are still many players on our list we haven't even seen at senior level yet: Contin, Grimes, Gilligan,Gourdis, Hicks,O'Reilly and Westhoff. On top of that, we've only seen glimpses of Taylor, Roberts, Webberley, Griffiths and Dea so far.There is just so much scope for improvement with our current list. With Simmonds gone, McMahon's papers stamped and the likes of Hislop,Thompson,and probably Polo and Morton to go, that's plenty of room for new faces coming into 2011. 
Finally,you say the lack of 24-28 yr olds on our list is a problem. Well there's only 2 ways to fix that. One is to wait for our list to start ageing, obviously. The other is to recruit some older, recycled players. And I'm sure we don't want to go down that path again. It never worked for us in the past. And look at the mess Brisbane are in now taking that approach.   


Wooooh camel woooooh!  ;D

Stripes has basically said what I wanted to reply  :thumbsup. We have too many unknown cubs to count them as clear options going forward. For example the midfield - by 12 I meant certainties that can be relied upon at AFL level week in week out. The likes of Nason, Webberley, Contin, Grimes, etc are unproven and could turn out to be as much flops long term as best 22ers.  Remember Polo and Raines looked promising early on but once the opposition figured them out they didn't come on. In fact the majority of our list is unproven at AFL level even a number of those in the Richmond at the moment. We haven't beaten anyone yet of note. They've all been bottom 8 sides out of form and low on confidence. We still need to add more class before we can get in a position to match let alone beat the top sides when a game matters to them as much as it does to us. If we get ahead of ourselves then we'll just repeat the mistakes of the past 15 years falling short of the best.

Not meaning to single him out as Nason has been good for a first year player but as much as Nason has been promising he is nowhere near in the same class of a Lids, Cotch or Martin to say we can find their types at pick 71 when they were top 4 picks. Sure you can still find decent AFL footballers later in the draft but they are rare finds amongst the chaff and the A-grade cream is more and more rising to the top end of the drafts year by year as recruiting become more and more sophisticated and analysed.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2010, 10:25:55 PM »

To me the job is so far only half done. We have a young core now to build around which we didn't have 5 years ago but that core needs to be added to (what Ramps calls the second wave of recruiting) to build a quality list that has depth that can take us to a flag.

Its about time that "Multiwave Recruiting" become famous in the AFL.

I may write my own recruiting book

All the way with Multiwave- The Ramps route to success  ;D :lol

Kitchen and other merchandise to arrive shortly!
:rollin :thatsgold

Ramps' prototype machine for recruiters lol

All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Ramps

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2010, 11:48:24 PM »

To me the job is so far only half done. We have a young core now to build around which we didn't have 5 years ago but that core needs to be added to (what Ramps calls the second wave of recruiting) to build a quality list that has depth that can take us to a flag.

Its about time that "Multiwave Recruiting" become famous in the AFL.

I may write my own recruiting book

All the way with Multiwave- The Ramps route to success  ;D :lol

Kitchen and other merchandise to arrive shortly!
:rollin :thatsgold

Ramps' prototype machine for recruiters lol



Nice pictures - wheres the dud eject button  ;D

Offline RollsRoyce

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2010, 12:23:57 AM »
 
Wooooh camel woooooh!  ;D

Stripes has basically said what I wanted to reply  :thumbsup. We have too many unknown cubs to count them as clear options going forward. For example the midfield - by 12 I meant certainties that can be relied upon at AFL level week in week out. The likes of Nason, Webberley, Contin, Grimes, etc are unproven and could turn out to be as much flops long term as best 22ers.  Remember Polo and Raines looked promising early on but once the opposition figured them out they didn't come on. In fact the majority of our list is unproven at AFL level even a number of those in the Richmond at the moment. We haven't beaten anyone yet of note. They've all been bottom 8 sides out of form and low on confidence. We still need to add more class before we can get in a position to match let alone beat the top sides when a game matters to them as much as it does to us. If we get ahead of ourselves then we'll just repeat the mistakes of the past 15 years falling short of the best.

Not meaning to single him out as Nason has been good for a first year player but as much as Nason has been promising he is nowhere near in the same class of a Lids, Cotch or Martin to say we can find their types at pick 71 when they were top 4 picks. Sure you can still find decent AFL footballers later in the draft but they are rare finds amongst the chaff and the A-grade cream is more and more rising to the top end of the drafts year by year as recruiting become more and more sophisticated and analysed.
My optimism isn't based around who we've beaten. I know we haven't beaten anybody of significance yet. In fact we're just as likely to get touched up by the ducks again next week as we always do, then you'll all be lining up to say "I told you so".
 But maybe in a year or two when these kids get a few more pre-season's and matches under their belts, and a few more kilo's on their frames it'll be a different story. And I know that history says that a large percentage of these kids wont make the grade, but I wager that a lot more of this particular batch will come on than usual.
See, the thing that I find a bit contradictory from you and Stripes (and I'm not having a go at you here) is you're all for recruiting, recruiting and more recruiting. But when we go out and actually make FOURTEEN changes to our list in one season, you seem more intent on looking for the next batch, and the next, right up until 2013, than actually wanting to have a good close look at the players that we've already brought on board. 

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2010, 01:10:47 PM »
My optimism isn't based around who we've beaten. I know we haven't beaten anybody of significance yet. In fact we're just as likely to get touched up by the ducks again next week as we always do, then you'll all be lining up to say "I told you so".
 But maybe in a year or two when these kids get a few more pre-season's and matches under their belts, and a few more kilo's on their frames it'll be a different story. And I know that history says that a large percentage of these kids wont make the grade, but I wager that a lot more of this particular batch will come on than usual.
See, the thing that I find a bit contradictory from you and Stripes (and I'm not having a go at you here) is you're all for recruiting, recruiting and more recruiting. But when we go out and actually make FOURTEEN changes to our list in one season, you seem more intent on looking for the next batch, and the next, right up until 2013, than actually wanting to have a good close look at the players that we've already brought on board. 
But RR one draft of finally doing the right thing of making 14 changes doesn't make a list. Our recruiting philosophy prior to last year was a shambles. We kept changing our "grand plan" from year to year. In 2004 we brought in a whole heap of kids (ignoring their quality or lack of) then the following year we just used 3 picks. This was followed by 5 picks because we rated the 2006 draft and then just 3 picks again in 2007 because we didn't rate it and traded pick 19 for McMahon ::). In 2008 we then just used 2 picks on kids and 2 on top ups. I know I'm not saying anything new but I mean they didn't have a clue what they were doing :banghead. Even last year winning more than 4 games which would have given us at chance at picks 4 and 6 this year was a disgrace. Imagine adding two young guns to our current list of cubs. It's a missed opportunity for what - one more goal and 2 behinds  :P. There was no forward planning and no foresight. So yes it is probably a fair comment RR to say I look at one batch followed by another batch and so on because as a Club we never did so in past and that is why we didn't go anywhere. We never (re)built a list full stop!

This upcoming draft is Hardwick's most crucial. He needs to have another clean out (mostly the obvious names). It'll be a lot easier to do so if you are replacing our duds with quality youngsters. Winning too many games that we finish mid-ladder is detrimental to that aim. The last thing we need is another 2005 draft. We wanted Paddy Ryder and missed out on him by finishing Ninth. The system punishes clubs for meaningless wins in the second half. It's designed to reward bottom clubs based on ladder position. We need to take our medicine, finish as low as possible and rebuild our list with quality. That quality especially in this GC17 rigged draft is found early on and not starting with a mid-teen first round pick.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline Stripes

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2010, 02:25:59 PM »
My optimism isn't based around who we've beaten. I know we haven't beaten anybody of significance yet. In fact we're just as likely to get touched up by the ducks again next week as we always do, then you'll all be lining up to say "I told you so".
 But maybe in a year or two when these kids get a few more pre-season's and matches under their belts, and a few more kilo's on their frames it'll be a different story. And I know that history says that a large percentage of these kids wont make the grade, but I wager that a lot more of this particular batch will come on than usual.
See, the thing that I find a bit contradictory from you and Stripes (and I'm not having a go at you here) is you're all for recruiting, recruiting and more recruiting. But when we go out and actually make FOURTEEN changes to our list in one season, you seem more intent on looking for the next batch, and the next, right up until 2013, than actually wanting to have a good close look at the players that we've already brought on board. 
But RR one draft of finally doing the right thing of making 14 changes doesn't make a list. Our recruiting philosophy prior to last year was a shambles. We kept changing our "grand plan" from year to year. In 2004 we brought in a whole heap of kids (ignoring their quality or lack of) then the following year we just used 3 picks. This was followed by 5 picks because we rated the 2006 draft and then just 3 picks again in 2007 because we didn't rate it and traded pick 19 for McMahon ::). In 2008 we then just used 2 picks on kids and 2 on top ups. I know I'm not saying anything new but I mean they didn't have a clue what they were doing :banghead. Even last year winning more than 4 games which would have given us at chance at picks 4 and 6 this year was a disgrace. Imagine adding two young guns to our current list of cubs. It's a missed opportunity for what - one more goal and 2 behinds  :P. There was no forward planning and no foresight. So yes it is probably a fair comment RR to say I look at one batch followed by another batch and so on because as a Club we never did so in past and that is why we didn't go anywhere. We never (re)built a list full stop!

This upcoming draft is Hardwick's most crucial. He needs to have another clean out (mostly the obvious names). It'll be a lot easier to do so if you are replacing our duds with quality youngsters. Winning too many games that we finish mid-ladder is detrimental to that aim. The last thing we need is another 2005 draft. We wanted Paddy Ryder and missed out on him by finishing Ninth. The system punishes clubs for meaningless wins in the second half. It's designed to reward bottom clubs based on ladder position. We need to take our medicine, finish as low as possible and rebuild our list with quality. That quality especially in this GC17 rigged draft is found early on and not starting with a mid-teen first round pick.

Couldn't have said it better myself MT  :clapping

RR - I share your optimism regarding our last batch of draft choices but until they are proven quality players, which won't occur for many years to come, I don't want to throw away this opportunity to bring in another batch of quality players onto the list. We can't afford to wait and hope that our current crop will all make it so while we are in a position of drafting strength on the bottom of the ladder, we need to use it. If that means we engineer a couple of loses against bottom eight sides who are also looking to the draft, then so be it if it means our future will be better.

What's the difference between 4 or 6 wins? A hell of a lot in terms of draft choices but very little otherwise. This is why we need to look to the draft as much as look to develop our culture, confidence and game plan.

Stripes

Offline Smokey

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2010, 06:25:44 PM »
Scenario-based question for the pro-tankers:

Imagine we are in our current situation (young list, 1st year coach, years of failure etc etc) and we come to the last round.  We sit on the bottom of the ladder but only by percentage to the 2 teams above us.  They have both played and lost and we will jump from 16th to 14th with a win.  We are playing Geelong who need to win to take top spot and Newman takes the mark 50mts out directly in front when the siren sounds with us 5 points down.  Do you want him to kick the goal and consign us to draft pick #8 or miss and get us draft pick #4?

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2010, 07:03:39 PM »
Scenario-based question for the pro-tankers:

Imagine we are in our current situation (young list, 1st year coach, years of failure etc etc) and we come to the last round.  We sit on the bottom of the ladder but only by percentage to the 2 teams above us.  They have both played and lost and we will jump from 16th to 14th with a win.  We are playing Geelong who need to win to take top spot and Newman takes the mark 50mts out directly in front when the siren sounds with us 5 points down.  Do you want him to kick the goal and consign us to draft pick #8 or miss and get us draft pick #4?
Scenario won't happen Smokey as we play Port. :thumbsup

However as you put it assuming the scenario is real I would want us to miss. To me the difference between pick 4 as our first pick and pick 8 or 10 is huge. If we win four games or six games to me is not much difference and we'll get the earlier pick. At pick 10 the draft is a little more unpredictable in terms of who you are going to get. Just as an example we're we expecting Rance at 18 in 2007? I'm still an advocate for pick 4 and until we are in a real position to move up the ladder I'm still of the school that we should ensure we think of the future and not the present. Save our pennies for later.

Furthermore if we are running the Cats to a shot after the siren in that climate you mention then why shouldn't we enhance our list further with pick 4. The scenario you present would mean we are on the rise anyway so a pick 4 would only further strengthen our list moving forward to next year.


I know some won't agree but that's fine also. :thumbsup


Offline Smokey

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2010, 07:13:03 PM »

Scenario won't happen Smokey as we play Port. :thumbsup


 ;)  That's why I started it with "Imagine"!!   :)

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2010, 08:03:02 PM »
Scenario-based question for the pro-tankers:

Imagine we are in our current situation (young list, 1st year coach, years of failure etc etc) and we come to the last round.  We sit on the bottom of the ladder but only by percentage to the 2 teams above us.  They have both played and lost and we will jump from 16th to 14th with a win.  We are playing Geelong who need to win to take top spot and Newman takes the mark 50mts out directly in front when the siren sounds with us 5 points down.  Do you want him to kick the goal and consign us to draft pick #8 or miss and get us draft pick #4?
Miss! Hello Jordie  ;)

It's just not pick 4 either. The 2nd, 3rd round picks will be earlier as well. Play the odds and increase the pool of kids to choose from.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd