Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?

[the_boy_jake]

We were also playing Collingwood MT, who are one of the teams that develops without draft picks. Since 2000 they've only had 4 or 5 and whilst they've done really well with those picks (Didak, Thomas, Pendleebury) the real backbone of their relative success is that they've done so well with their later picks and rookies and also some of their recycled talent.

Anyway I despise the notion of tanking, don't think we will ever tank under Hardwick. Today wasn't a tank we were simply outclassed and it showed our depth isn't great. Nothing sinister about finishing last if you have ordinary squad depth and young players getting tired in their first few seasons.

As soon as we have 10-12 real players in or before their prime to build around we will be able to do a Collingwood/Geelong and build by smart drafting, but I do think we need pick 4 at this stage.

[mightytiges]

Haven't the Pies received two pre-first round priority picks in their time? Fraser and Thomas.

No doubt they the Pies have done well with some of their rookie picks but they do have a number of first rounders plus two father-sons in their best 22 and their classiest players like Didak and Pendlebury were top 5 picks. Add to that 8 of their 22 today were drafted 7 plus years ago. They've had a core to build around since the late 90s and have added to that core since then. We are just developing a core now.

1995: Prestigiacome (10)
1998: Lockyer (rookie)
1999: Fraser (1), Davis (34), Johnson (62), O'Bree (PSD 1)
2000: Didak (3)
2001: Swan (58)
2002: Maxwell (rookie)
2003: Shaw (48, F/S)
2004: Cloke (39, F/S), O'Brien (rookie, 21)
2005: Thomas (2), Pendlebury (5), Anthony (37), Toovey (rookie, 2)
2006: Reid (, Brown (10), Dawes (28), Dick (44), Goldsack (63), Wellingham (rookie, 10), MaCaffer (rookie, 26)
2008: Sidebottom (11), Beams (29), L.Brown (78), Blair (rookie, 27)
2009: Ball (30)

Trades: Jolly (14), Wood (14), Medhurst (Tarrant)

[the_boy_jake]

Sorry MT, I had meant to say

"Since 2000 they've only had 4 or 5 top 10"

[mightytiges]

No probs Jake. I'd still argue especially in recent drafts that as recruiting becomes even more sophisticated the cream is more and more at the top of the draft. It's playing the odds to finish as low as possible while rebuilding to back your recruitment staff and give them access to the largest pool of the best kids as possible. It also gives you early access to the 2nd and 3rd rounds which as you point out Jake are important picks as well to fill out and add the depth to a club's list.

Speaking of tanking hello West Coast Eagles  . 26 points up at half time at home with Carlton down to 3 on the bench and come out in the second half and play like they've never played together before.

[Penelope]

Like, it's so unusual for a team in contention for the wooden spoon to be overrun by a team in contention for the finals?
They must have dived!
Which players were asked to under-perform in the second half?

[mightytiges]

Like, it's so unusual for a team in contention for the wooden spoon to be overrun by a team in contention for the finals?
They must have dived!
Which players were asked to under-perform in the second half?

Embley might as well been wearing a Blues jumper  .

Just ticked off Carlton won al.

The whole WCE side under-performed in the second half. Jeckyl and Hyde stuff between halves. Never seen so many simple uncontested marks dropped since we had the yips in the first 15 minutes of round 1 last year. The Eagles ineptness in the second half was so bad and such a major momentum change from the first half. Carlton had hardly been setting the world on fire recently winning just 1 of their past 5 before tonight. They won't last long if the finals. I thought the Eagles were a good chance to knock them off tonight.

[tdy]

To wade into this looong running thread, I'm with the tankers, but we also need to develop our players and spend spend spend off field.

I wouldn't rate our list very good or even the potential of our list as "very good" at the moment.  We wont be competitive for another 2 or maybe 3 years more, given that we have some big list holes. 

I reckon we will dump 8-10 players at the end of this year, in another clean out. 

[tony_montana]

bit of a reality check the past few weeks, sydney got smashed by a record margin under roos today and freo were done nastily, they're both not exactly in vintage form.. Puts some perspective on where we're at and how long the road will be especially if we experience injury issues

[Judge Roughneck]

melbourne batch of kids of young players looked strong today

[Infamy]

melbourne batch of kids of young players looked strong today

Their best players were still Green, Bruce, Sylvia & Jamar who aren't exactly kids

[tony_montana]

melbourne batch of kids of young players looked strong today

Their best players were still Green, Bruce, Sylvia & Jamar who aren't exactly kids

yes true, their young players were very good however. They are staerting to remind me of Hawthorn 2006. Plethora of early draft picks, late season surge (2006) which catapults them to finals in 2007. Reckon Dees are set, have done their time and will soon show how good they will be in the coming years

[Infamy]

melbourne batch of kids of young players looked strong today

Their best players were still Green, Bruce, Sylvia & Jamar who aren't exactly kids

yes true, their young players were very good however. They are staerting to remind me of Hawthorn 2006. Plethora of early draft picks, late season surge (2006) which catapults them to finals in 2007. Reckon Dees are set, have done their time and will soon show how good they will be in the coming years

Except, contrary to popular opinion, it wasn't the plethora of early picks that got the Hawks to the finals. Buddy, Roughead & Lewis certainly played a big part, but the rest was their existing list.

[tony_montana]

melbourne batch of kids of young players looked strong today

Their best players were still Green, Bruce, Sylvia & Jamar who aren't exactly kids

yes true, their young players were very good however. They are staerting to remind me of Hawthorn 2006. Plethora of early draft picks, late season surge (2006) which catapults them to finals in 2007. Reckon Dees are set, have done their time and will soon show how good they will be in the coming years

Except, contrary to popular opinion, it wasn't the plethora of early picks that got the Hawks to the finals. Buddy, Roughead & Lewis certainly played a big part, but the rest was their existing list.

I think you'll find that abt 10 of their GF 22 were drafted from 04 onwards and make no mistake this is a direct result from having plenty of early picks to use on bluechip talent. They got themselves a lot of early draft picks from the thompson, Hay trades as well as PP's. Now not all their early draft picks worked like Thorpe and Dowler but what it actually enabled them to do was get their list structues correct quickly which enabled them to draft players like Gilham, Guerra & Dew.

Franklin(5)
Roughead(2)
Lewis(7)
Ellis(3)
Birchall(14)
Rioli(12)
Renouf(24)

that's 7 top draftees in a short span that played in the GF, I'd call that a plethora of young draftees directly assisting the Hawks to win a flag.

[Infamy]

They may have had 1/3 of their list from 2004 or afterwards, however it wasn't the reason they won the flag
The reason they won was the 14 or so senior players on their list from before Clarkson arrived

[tony_montana]

They may have had 1/3 of their list from 2004 or afterwards, however it wasn't the reason they won the flag
The reason they won was the 14 or so senior players on their list from before Clarkson arrived

rubbish, you can't have one without the other. and 7 were top end draft picks, there were 10 all up that came from 04 onwards, thats a pretty big chunk