Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?

[Infamy]

How do you figure 5? That's a furphy. The way I see it we had 8: Cotchin, Deledio, Martin, Polak, Riewoldt, Vickery, Tambling & Cousins.

Riewoldt was 13, Cousins was a father son, now Tambling is about to be traded
The one people have missed is Jordan McMahon who was Pick 10 in 2000, Adam Thomson was Pick 11 in 2004 so just misses out

In 2011 we will have Cotchin (2), Deledio (1), Martin (3), Vickery ( and maybe Tambling (4) if he doesn't get a good trade
The other which you could argue is Mitch Morton who was a father son pick to West Coast in 2004 and was was considered a certainty to go Top 10 otherwise

[FooffooValve]

Sorry, was talking about 1st rounders as opposed to top 10 - you can get the stats to say what you like - just depends on where you choose to draw the line.

Certainly I haven't missed the point - in fact I think you might have tony_montana.

The point is: we have had more than our fair share of top 10 or high draft picks in the past 10 years, many more than Geelong, and comparable numbers or better than any premiership team of the past decade.

Yet, we still languish near the bottom. So, the answer must lie in other areas — not in tanking, but in player development, recruitment, coaching and coaching support, medical and physical — you name it.

There are so many posters on here that believe that all you need to do is lose games to get high picks and then sit back and watch the team win the flag. Chasing success, or believing that tanking is the secret just aren't looking at the facts, and are refusing to look at what has made Geelong, Collingwood, St Kilda etc so competitive. It isn't tanking, I can tell you that.

[tony_montana]

Sorry, was talking about 1st rounders as opposed to top 10 - you can get the stats to say what you like - just depends on where you choose to draw the line.

Certainly I haven't missed the point - in fact I think you might have tony_montana.

The point is: we have had more than our fair share of top 10 or high draft picks in the past 10 years, many more than Geelong, and comparable numbers or better than any premiership team of the past decade.

Yet, we still languish near the bottom. So, the answer must lie in other areas — not in tanking, but in player development, recruitment, coaching and coaching support, medical and physical — you name it.

There are so many posters on here that believe that all you need to do is lose games to get high picks and then sit back and watch the team win the flag. Chasing success, or believing that tanking is the secret just aren't looking at the facts, and are refusing to look at what has made Geelong, Collingwood, St Kilda etc so competitive. It isn't tanking, I can tell you that.

actually i havent ffoo, I think I'd know the point of my own argument  
 if you noted, my point is that (first and foremost)you need quality at the top end to push up the ladder simple as that and the surest low risk way to find that talent is with top 10 picks. I was illustrating that with (now 4) top 10 picks on our list moving fwd and reiwoldt being the only potential superstar on our list outside this parameter, we have an obviours dearth of high end quality on our list(Lids/Cotch/Martin/Reiwoldt as our only real A-graders)
We are still very much in rebuild mode and another 2-3 top 10 picks which are almost certain to be very good players, wouldnt go astray in giving us enough A-graders to build around. Thats the bottom line and I don't see how people can dispute this as pie in the sky stuff?   pretty much common sense imo

As for your argument of our plethora ofpast top 10 picks, you are correct, we have had PLENTY over the journey which points to a serious lack of development and good coaching as well as appalling talent identification and list management. Those areas seem to be fixed now and we finally look as though we are catching up to industry standards BUT we are coming from so far behind that a few extra quality players would have been invaluable and helped speed up the process.

[Judge Roughneck]

 if you don't think collingwood tanked to get picks #2 #5 in 2005 you are dreaming

Sorry, was talking about 1st rounders as opposed to top 10 - you can get the stats to say what you like - just depends on where you choose to draw the line.

Certainly I haven't missed the point - in fact I think you might have tony_montana.

The point is: we have had more than our fair share of top 10 or high draft picks in the past 10 years, many more than Geelong, and comparable numbers or better than any premiership team of the past decade.

Yet, we still languish near the bottom. So, the answer must lie in other areas — not in tanking, but in player development, recruitment, coaching and coaching support, medical and physical — you name it.

There are so many posters on here that believe that all you need to do is lose games to get high picks and then sit back and watch the team win the flag. Chasing success, or believing that tanking is the secret just aren't looking at the facts, and are refusing to look at what has made Geelong, Collingwood, St Kilda etc so competitive. It isn't tanking, I can tell you that.

[Ramps]

People should go have a look at the Collingwood North Melbourne game in the year that Collingwood got the priority. Look at the last 5 to 10 minutes. End of story!

[FooffooValve]

if you don't think collingwood tanked to get picks #2 #5 in 2005 you are dreaming

That's not the point . The point is: if you think that tanking won them a flag, you are dreaming.

Tell me, when did Geelong tank to win a flag? How many top 10 picks did they have?

Belief in tanking is a loser short term fix mentality, and is a red herring to the main game.

[Judge Roughneck]

the fact is two of collingwoods most key players, 2nd and 4th most possessions this season we attained via tanking 5 years ago and translated to winning the flag this season. 

Geelong drafted the like of bartel, selwood with top 10 picks. And added other players, some of the highest talented in the draft pool; ablett, scarlett, Hawkins etc. Via father son. 

if you don't think collingwood tanked to get picks #2 #5 in 2005 you are dreaming

That's not the point . The point is: if you think that tanking won them a flag, you are dreaming.

Tell me, when did Geelong tank to win a flag? How many top 10 picks did they have?

Belief in tanking is a loser short term fix mentality, and is a red herring to the main game.

[FooffooValve]

Yeah, Bartel 8 and Selwood 7. Nothing unusual there.

Hawkins lol.

Let's not forget that Ablett wasn't rated much higher than 25 when drafted, and played to that for his first few seasons. Similarly, Bartel took at least 2 years to cement a place in the Geelong side, and was even talked of as a trade.

So, something happened to see those boys and the rest of the Geelong side become a two-time premiership juggernaut. Do we put it down to tanking? No. Categorically no.

[Smokey]

And Collingwood did not get Thomas by tanking - he was coming anyway due to the low finish.  Pendlebury was the only extra and they would have won that flag without him.

[tiger till i die]

Yeah, Bartel 8 and Selwood 7. Nothing unusual there.

Hawkins lol.

Let's not forget that Ablett wasn't rated much higher than 25 when drafted, and played to that for his first few seasons. Similarly, Bartel took at least 2 years to cement a place in the Geelong side, and was even talked of as a trade.

So, something happened to see those boys and the rest of the Geelong side become a two-time premiership juggernaut. Do we put it down to tanking? No. Categorically no.

Weres all our past greats sons? 

[Judge Roughneck]

And Collingwood did not get Thomas by tanking - he was coming anyway due to the low finish.  Pendlebury was the only extra and they would have won that flag without him.

no I don't think they would have

[Smokey]

And Collingwood did not get Thomas by tanking - he was coming anyway due to the low finish.  Pendlebury was the only extra and they would have won that flag without him.

no I don't think they would have

Which final game(s) did he mean the difference between winning and losing?

[Penelope]

FooffooValve, trying to convince tanking proponents that there is more to success than deliberately losing, such as hard work, dedication and smart management in all aspects off the club is like trying to convince a long term dole bludger they would be better of to go out and get a job.

[Smokey]

FooffooValve, trying to convince tanking proponents that there is more to success than deliberately losing, such as hard work, dedication and smart management in all aspects off the club is like trying to convince a long term dole bludger they would be better of to go out and get a job.

 

[mightytiges]

No one who is pro-tanking has ever argued it is the be all and end all. It is the first of three main components aimed to maximise your draft selections so you turn over your list quickly and bring as many of the best and classiest young footballers in in as short a space of time as possible to grow as a team together. Our course investing in recruitment staff and resources so those many picks pay off and development of those junior footballers in AFL players is also important. However they come afterwards as you can't recruit and develop a team of average footballers into a premiership side. You need access to the classiest juniors which more and more are found at the top end of the draft.

By the way in the past whenever this topic has come up anti-tankers would try and argue no club that has "tanked" to gain extra priority picks has won a flag. Now we've seen two in past three years. Further to that every Melbourne-based club that made the finals this year tanked when they were rebuilding their lists - Pies, Saints, Dogs, Hawks and Blues. Melbourne isn't far off playing finals either. I'm not sure why some supporters of a club like ours whose played just two finals in 27 years wouldn't support following a pathway that has worked for so many clubs  ???.

And Collingwood did not get Thomas by tanking - he was coming anyway due to the low finish.  Pendlebury was the only extra and they would have won that flag without him.

no I don't think they would have

Which final game(s) did he mean the difference between winning and losing?

You don't rate Pendlebury that highly smokey? IMO he's the classiest player on the Collingwood's list. His basketball background gives him great awareness in and out of traffic so he always seems to have time to dispose of the ball which he executes well as well. No surprise for me he won the Norm Smith.