Author Topic: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?  (Read 33390 times)

the claw

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #180 on: October 06, 2010, 12:09:59 AM »
before the GF on saturday they were showing how many top 10 draft picks each side had. Saints had 7, pies 8(7 played).
How many do we have? 5, whichever way you look at that simple stat and where we have been for so long - well thats just criminal!!!!

in 2005 and 2006 collinwood got pendles, thomas, reid and brown, thats how successful clubs rebuild, they get a mountain of high draft picks in a short period of time and then build with and around that quality.
you still need top end quality....

but anyhow we dont need them an extra few quality players dnt help :)

How do you figure 5? That's a furphy. The way I see it we had 8: Cotchin, Deledio, Martin, Polak, Riewoldt, Vickery, Tambling & Cousins.

Then factor in Ottens, Pettifer, Meyer, Pattison and Oakley Nicholls — all 1st round picks who are either playing elsewhere right now or retired from AFL but could still be playing. I might have forgotten a few as well!

That's 13 1st rounders in the last 10 years or so, and people still sit here and carp on about quality and tanking and that's the only way forward etc.

It's rubbish. Complete rubbish.
lol how the deluded muddle things or should that be muddy things.
what you are talking about here is recruiting. weather it is pick 1  which gives you the best possible chance of getting it right, or pick  101 which gives you less chance of getting it right  and absolutely no chance at elite players whiuch is by the way  what you advocate . if you choose poorly you fail. oh i know regardless lets just not participate in the draft. because that is the next step to your argument.

tanking is all about the nd it is uteliseing many nd picks and it about getting them right its also about giving yourself the best chances to get it right. after all if you are poo at recruiting you want every concievable thing in place to give you the best chance to get it right and lessen the risk.

you totally miss the point and this debate is not exclusive to your side when it comes to the recruitment side of it.  all recruiting is dependent on getting your picks right. we will fail just as badly doing it your way if we dont get them right.
this thread is not about the garbage you spew up. its based on if we get it right not some spurious argument of we cant recruit so why bother.

ya know heres a way to look at it. you name  8 first rounders. 2 we never gave up a 1st rounder for so lets forget them and look at what we invested in the nd.
6 of those 8 came to us as a direct result of low finishes and we utilised the nd. of those 6 we have a miss with tambling and we have a skinny 200cm bloke in vickery who looks okay but will take time to develop and bring to the fore his potential. anyone who rights off a 200cm ruckman after 2yrs is an idiot. the other 4 martin cotchin deledio riewoldt are a mile in front of anyone on our list and we got them only because we were crap.
 ive asked this before  2 or 3 or 4 extra wins or dustin martin.  bloody hell as it was, one nothing  extra win  and a draw  or bastinac.get the bloody pick right and the rewards are enormous yet here you are mired in but what if we get them wrong well what if we get them right.
 if we had tanked the idea would have been not just martin  but scully as well. its double dipping and when a very early pick is not involved it means a pick around 18 bloody hell if we had used our pick 19 in 07 ward and pears could now be tigers. get it right and the rewards are fantastic.  if we had won just 4 last yr we would have griffiths and just after him bastinac.

 weather we get it it right or wrong that has nothing to do with tanking, you tank,ah  no, you enter every draft on the assumption that you will get it right and grow the list. if you think otherwise dont take part.

 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 12:26:17 AM by the claw »

Offline tiger till i die

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #181 on: October 06, 2010, 02:47:34 AM »
^^Wahh that is a big post
 Claw :clapping


FooffooValve

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #182 on: October 06, 2010, 11:11:07 AM »
^^Wahh that is a big post
 Claw :clapping



Pity that it is misguided claptrap!

Actually I shouldn't say claptrap - that would be a bit rude, but then again Claw is mainly that. Unfortunately he thinks that being abusive means his opinion carries more weight. That's the misguided part.

It isn't beyond me to see that having higher picks gives you a statistically slightly higher chance of picking a good player. But I challenge you to go back through every single draft and really analyse whether that is true. No, wait, I'll save you the time and just say that unless you have a pick in the top 3, then this is plainly NOT true.

We were NEVER going to have a pick in the top 3 this year. FACT. Wouldn't have mattered if we'd lost 22 games straight.

We are rebuilding not only a list, but a game plan, an attitude and an entire club. The tanking advocates say that as early as possible we should assess whether or not we are going to make finals, and if that assessment is 'no', then we should lose as many games as is necessary to secure the highest pick possible in the draft. Let's not forget also that there are no high priority picks any more.

So, here we have a new coach with a largely new bunch of players busting his gut to implement a new game plan that may take 3 years or more to get right. It was pretty clear before the season started that we weren't going to make finals, and confirmed at about round 5 that finals were completely out of our reach. So, according to the tankers, we should have been manipulating results from that point on to ensure that we moved from pick 6 to pick 4 in the draft, and perhaps picked up another pick somewhere in the 20s. Forget about ruthlessly implementing a game plan to the best of our ability, forget about teaching these young players what is required to win football games, forget about implementing a win at all costs mentality around our loser-mentality football club, no, let's make sure we lose enough games to move a couple of places up a draft order so that we might be able to grab a quick fix.

It is useless comparing us to other clubs that have had the advantage of priority pick. You aren't comparing apples with apples. And, there are just as many examples of clubs that haven't "tanked" that have been successful. None of the tankers like to look at Geelong because their huge sustained success over many years flies in the face of the tanking argument.

The tanking argument (especially in the post priority pick era) is such a minor part of what makes a club successful that it is virtually not worth talking about. It is a red herring.

The club needs to focus on building a club around principles, standards, structures and goals. Not around distracting side issues like losing as many games as possible when finals are out of reach.

Someone mentioned something about Pendlebury being the difference for Collingwood. What utter piffle! Sure, he's a terrific player, but the difference for Collingwood this year was the bottom six players, and the break-out years of players like Thomas, Wellingham, O'Brien, Blair, Goldsack etc into genuine role-players, plus the addition of Jolly and to a lesser extent Ball. Their success owes a very small almost undetectable percentage to tanking.


« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:42:23 AM by FooffooValve »

Ramps

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #183 on: October 06, 2010, 11:50:12 AM »
Pendlebury is a superstar therefore tanking is not a red herring.

FooffooValve

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #184 on: October 06, 2010, 12:02:07 PM »
Pendlebury is a superstar therefore tanking is not a red herring.

That's the best you've got?

Pendlebury was a PP was he not? Lemme know how we can get one of those Ramps!

Offline Smokey

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #185 on: October 06, 2010, 01:01:49 PM »

You don't rate Pendlebury that highly smokey? IMO he's the classiest player on the Collingwood's list. His basketball background gives him great awareness in and out of traffic so he always seems to have time to dispose of the ball which he executes well as well. No surprise for me he won the Norm Smith.

Yes I do MT, I rate him very highly but I don't think he made a p00fteenth of difference of whether Collingwood won the flag or not.  The answer is at the bottom end of the list and how they have drafted/developed their low-end players, not the top.  Just like Geelong before them, they go deep in their list and it's the names that missed out that tell the story - Medhurst, Lockyer, O'Bree, Fraser, Anthony, Davis, Prestigiacomo, Brown - all would be playing seniors in most other sides yet all missed either some or all of the final matches.  Those guys plus the kids that did play - Beams, Macaffer, Blair, Wellingham, Dawes, Toovey - it's the ability of this group that won the flag for them this season.  And tanking had zero to do with that.  If you get all the ground work right then you can always go and top up on the missing bits of class when your 'window' opens - Jolly and Ball are perfect examples - but you can't go out and top up on a mindset, a culture, an attitude or a proven gameplan and you can't get that tanking.

Edit:  the swear filter changed p00f to sissy?  What the?

Ramps

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #186 on: October 06, 2010, 01:37:43 PM »
Pendlebury is a superstar therefore tanking is not a red herring.

That's the best you've got?

Pendlebury was a PP was he not? Lemme know how we can get one of those Ramps!

by losing enough games to get one. its pretty straight forward. weve had plenty of chances in the past and stupidly made the mistake of chasing irrelevant wins. thats basically it in a nutshell.

FooffooValve

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #187 on: October 06, 2010, 01:57:07 PM »
Pendlebury is a superstar therefore tanking is not a red herring.

That's the best you've got?

Pendlebury was a PP was he not? Lemme know how we can get one of those Ramps!

by losing enough games to get one. its pretty straight forward. weve had plenty of chances in the past and stupidly made the mistake of chasing irrelevant wins. thats basically it in a nutshell.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those kind of PP's don't exist any more. In a nutshell.

The cost/benefit of tanking doesn't add up any more, if it ever did.

We've been losing for too long. We need to start valuing winning a bit more. A lot more.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #188 on: June 25, 2011, 05:06:57 PM »
Our bottom six are still the problem.

Miller. Mcgaune. Farmer. Gourdis. Hislop.

Jackson needs to wrk out what his future is.

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #189 on: June 25, 2011, 05:09:19 PM »
Our bottom six are still the problem.

Miller. Mcgaune. Farmer. Gourdis. Hislop.

Jackson needs to wrk out what his future is.

Jacksons future is with someone else. Hopefully.

Offline The Big Richo

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #190 on: June 25, 2011, 08:14:05 PM »
Amen brother.
Who isn't a fan of the thinking man's orange Tim Fleming?

Gerks 27/6/11

But you see, it's not me, it's not my family.
In your head, in your head they are fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are crying...

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #191 on: June 26, 2011, 12:22:00 AM »
I don't think we saw anything yesterday we didn't already know. Melbourne are ahead of us with their list as far as depth while our the bottom end of our side and list is still clogged with duds that need to be moved on. We knew when Hardwick took over it would take more than two trade/draft periods to clean up and rebuild our list. So far only half the list has been turned over since Dimma arrived.

All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline TigerLand

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #192 on: June 26, 2011, 12:24:51 AM »
I thought I was the only one that disliked Jackson, everyone loves his attack and aggression on the ball, which is also a negative seeing as he gets reported 1 in 4 games. As much as I admire his courage the guy isn't AFL standard. Have always said we'll never be a top side when our best 22 consists of guys like Jackson and Tuck. It's just reality, fine blokes I'm sure and OK footballers. Not top 4 standard.
Go Tigers!

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #193 on: June 26, 2011, 12:26:16 AM »
I thought I was the only one that disliked Jackson, everyone loves his attack and aggression on the ball, which is also a negative seeing as he gets reported 1 in 4 games. As much as I admire his courage the guy isn't AFL standard. Have always said we'll never be a top side when our best 22 consists of guys like Jackson and Tuck. It's just reality, fine blokes I'm sure and OK footballers. Not top 4 standard.

Ive never been a big fan either. For some reason the coach wants him in the side.

Offline TigerLand

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #194 on: June 26, 2011, 12:44:35 AM »
I thought I was the only one that disliked Jackson, everyone loves his attack and aggression on the ball, which is also a negative seeing as he gets reported 1 in 4 games. As much as I admire his courage the guy isn't AFL standard. Have always said we'll never be a top side when our best 22 consists of guys like Jackson and Tuck. It's just reality, fine blokes I'm sure and OK footballers. Not top 4 standard.

Ive never been a big fan either. For some reason the coach wants him in the side.

As a negating player he has value.

Would be very interested in the stat of how many games we won when Jackson had over 20 possessions. Should not be disposing the ball, certainly not from a handball receive.

Have to ask whether he'd get a game at Carlton, Hawthorn, Geelong or Collingwood.

I'd honestly doubt it.
Go Tigers!