Author Topic: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick  (Read 19963 times)

Offline cub

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2010, 09:53:26 PM »
Rubbish comments! Will be cheering my guts out tomorrow against the cows. :gotigers

Offline Stripes

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2010, 10:08:17 PM »
smokey - very emotive reply. You obviously feel strongly about it.

The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Jumping up and down the ladder from between 16th to 9th, from one year to the next, for over a decade and yet expecting to become a flag contender is madness. Stringing a few wins together one season and then struggling to win more than a handful of games the next makes me sick to my very core.

So if we do manage to finish down the bottom of the ladder this year and even next and gain the raw talent we need to develop into a premiership side then don't embarass yourself by trying to look me in the eye when I'm celebrating my team's win through the virtues of hard work to draft well and develop the talent we choose, courage to take the pain of short term losses, honesty to realize that our misguidied belief as a club that winning at all costs is futile when we do not have the players to rise above mediocre and team who should always strive to win regardless of what the administration engineers. If we have success through playing the system, through making the hard decisions and not always trying to be noble when it has been our proven cause of failure for decades, don't try and look me in the eyes - I won't bother meeting your gaze...;)

There is no cap on the money spent of development or the staff acquired through off field spending so clubs such as Collingwood have an advantage over most of the restof the competition, us included. Leigh Matthews is right to point to the Collingwood side and highlight the players that appear to be playing far above their initial draft potential but he fails to finger the inequity in off-field spending too. This fund discrepency or CHEATING if you like, can not be exploited by us at the moment but the draft can.

Say what you like about the theory of engineering losses to finish down the bottom of the ladder to advantage yourself in the draft but all clubs seek to gain advantage of the systems and laws they have placed before them by the league including Collingwood, including Geelong, including Brisbane, including every team you can think off. Tanking is merely one way.

Stripes

tony_montana

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2010, 10:39:57 PM »
No, you can't make strawberry jam from manure. But then to dismiss kids like Nason, Astbury, Webberley and Griffiths as manure just because they weren't absolute premium draft picks is pretty insulting to their ability and worth.
And the fact that we secured such promising players with the benefit of smart recruiting with mid to late-range draft picks only proves my point.
Compare this to the way the previous administration frittered away early draft picks on the likes of Tambling (4) Meyer(12) Pattison(16) Polo(20) JON (8) and Hughes. That list re-building 2004 draft was really worth finishing on the bottom for AGAIN-wasn't it????
Look, we're just going round and round in ever-decreasing circles on this one. We're just going to have to agree to disagree. But one last point is that players aren't machines. You can't just de-program them, and re-program them at the flick of a switch. And I think it would be virtually impossible to re-build a team's self-confidence and belief after you've encouraged them to lay low for 2-3 years,taking one beating after another, while we slowly put together the kind of elite list you think is worthy of challenging the big boys.     

Melbourne begs to differ  :shh

When Melbourne becomes successful and wins a flag by doing it then I might be persuaded to change my mind.  Until then, I will go with what I know - that tanking has never won a team a flag in the history of the AFL.

hawthorn tanked...

and besides why does tanking have to bring you a flag? tanking is there to help rebuild your list to HAVE A REALISTIC SHOT AT WINNING A FLAG. Melbourne and carlton may or may not win a flag but they'll be thereabts overthe nex few years, where will we be? jus a stuffing chance for stuffs sake, we dont even get that in 30 long years

Offline Smokey

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2010, 10:57:10 PM »
smokey - very emotive reply. You obviously feel strongly about it.


What can I say Stripes, I'm an emotive person when it comes to the Tigers.  ;)   :gotigers

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The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Jumping up and down the ladder from between 16th to 9th, from one year to the next, for over a decade and yet expecting to become a flag contender is madness. Stringing a few wins together one season and then struggling to win more than a handful of games the next makes me sick to my very core.


Yes it is Stripes, absolute madness.  That's exactly what I would call our past 30 years as we continually ignored the need to consolidate our club and succeed in the long term through professionalism, innovation, improvement, and plain old common sense, thinking instead that success was a God given right to our powerful club and that all we had to do was shut our eyes and think of Ol' Blighty.  We could have had the number 1 draft pick every year for each of those 30 years and we would still be the barren laughing stock we became.  Not seeing the wood for the trees makes me sick to the core.

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So if we do manage to finish down the bottom of the ladder this year and even next and gain the raw talent we need to develop into a premiership side then don't embarass yourself by trying to look me in the eye when I'm celebrating my team's win through the virtues of hard work to draft well and develop the talent we choose, courage to take the pain of short term losses, honesty to realize that our misguidied belief as a club that winning at all costs is futile when we do not have the players to rise above mediocre and team who should always strive to win regardless of what the administration engineers. If we have success through playing the system, through making the hard decisions and not always trying to be noble when it has been our proven cause of failure for decades, don't try and look me in the eyes - I won't bother meeting your gaze...;)


I really don't have anything to add to this - if you think that our "proven cause of failure for decades" has been our because of our nobility or lack of playing the system then there is not a lot more I can say.  Maybe re-read my comment above about wood and trees.

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There is no cap on the money spent of development or the staff acquired through off field spending so clubs such as Collingwood have an advantage over most of the restof the competition, us included. Leigh Matthews is right to point to the Collingwood side and highlight the players that appear to be playing far above their initial draft potential but he fails to finger the inequity in off-field spending too. This fund discrepency or CHEATING if you like, can not be exploited by us at the moment but the draft can.


Fund discrepancy - cheating?  Can't be exploited by us?  What the?  Last time I looked this was a professional sport played in a country run as a capitalistic democracy with no rules regarding how wealthy individual legal entities such as clubs are allowed to become.  You really are a 'rules' type of person aren't you!  I ask how committed to your cause you would be comrade, if Richmond is instructed to hand over a healthy percentage of it's profits to North Melbourne in order to redress some of this "cheating" imbalance in club funds?  I find it laughable that you do identify one of the real prime causes of our lack of recent success and then claim that it is only based on unfairness because we have been too stupid, too unprofessional, too factional, too lazy too damn whatever to take the necessary steps to correct it and that the fault lies with the system, not the club!!  Do you think therefore, that getting the next 3 or 4 number one picks will address the "cheating" financial advantage that Collingwood, Essendon, West Coast, Adelaide, Hawthorn etc have built for themselves over recent years by gaining superiority in the area of development?  Hhmm, typing out those club names identifies a common thread to me - longer sustained periods of success, power and respect.  Coincidence maybe?  Who knows but running your club as profitably as you can and then choosing to reinvest a large part of those profits in your football department is certainly legal and it is certainly professional and it is certainly smart and it is certainly not cheating.

Quote

Say what you like about the theory of engineering losses to finish down the bottom of the ladder to advantage yourself in the draft but all clubs seek to gain advantage of the systems and laws they have placed before them by the league including Collingwood, including Geelong, including Brisbane, including every team you can think off. Tanking is merely one way.


Tanking is the way a few clubs have chosen.  Until I see success and premierships delivered to those clubs by this method of cheating compromise and the subsequent due respect accorded them by the football world in general, then I can never hope to support it.

Karma.  You can't see it, feel it or touch it but it bites very, very hard when you poke it with a big stick.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2010, 11:10:05 PM »

hawthorn tanked...


Really?  What year(s) would that be in?

Quote

and besides why does tanking have to bring you a flag? tanking is there to help rebuild your list to HAVE A REALISTIC SHOT AT WINNING A FLAG. Melbourne and carlton may or may not win a flag but they'll be thereabts overthe nex few years, where will we be? jus a effing chance for effs sake, we dont even get that in 30 long years

Because if you are going to tank and not win a flag then I would suggest you are the biggest fool organization of all time, wasting precious time, energy and money on a proven unsuccessful outcome.  I would think the risk/return figures are very heavily skewed in favour of addressing the issues that are actually proven to deliver success.

tony_montana

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2010, 11:58:03 PM »

hawthorn tanked...


Really?  What year(s) would that be in?

Quote

and besides why does tanking have to bring you a flag? tanking is there to help rebuild your list to HAVE A REALISTIC SHOT AT WINNING A FLAG. Melbourne and carlton may or may not win a flag but they'll be thereabts overthe nex few years, where will we be? jus a effing chance for effs sake, we dont even get that in 30 long years

Because if you are going to tank and not win a flag then I would suggest you are the biggest fool organization of all time, wasting precious time, energy and money on a proven unsuccessful outcome.  I would think the risk/return figures are very heavily skewed in favour of addressing the issues that are actually proven to deliver success.

2004/2005 thought that was obvious?

as for your second comment, i cannot believe you are serious. You need to learn to walk before you run, how about getting the talent to be thereabts and "in the game" before starting to think premierships? At least it fast tracks them to get into a position were they can strike at a flag. Hawthorn got it all right with their development and did it quick, carlton and melbourne may not win a flag but they've assembled the talent from which to load a shot at a flag in te next few yrs which is more than can be said about our dud club!
Tanking isnt as black or white as win or lose a flag, its about giving smart clubs the opportunity to fastrack improvement and put them in the mix, once there its up to coaching/development/injuries some intangibles and a little bit of luck to take you all the way


Offline Penelope

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2010, 12:57:31 AM »
 :lol
it seems that every side that has finished last has "tanked"
 :ROTFL
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2010, 06:57:57 AM »
If accessing as many early draft picks as possible to access the most talented young footballers available weren't a critical first step in the recipe to build a strong successful list then the AFL wouldn't have given the new Gold Coast franchise 9 of the first 15 picks in this year's draft and GWS the same deal in 2011 plus all the other draft concessions. Smart well resourced recruiting, player development and club/team values, professionalism and culture will be built upon and around all these top picks.

Hawthorn "tanked" in 2005 btw after finishing 2nd last in 2004. They kept their wins to under 5 by giving up a 7 goal half-time lead to us when Petts kicked the winning goal :-\. Back to back priority picks enabled them to get both Roughead and Franklin together and then Ellis who was one of their best in their premiership. Accessing more early picks via trading gave them Lewis (7) and Birchall (14). I'm sure they are regreting "tanking" now. This was this second wave of rebuilding I might add. These guys were added to a young core of Hodge (1), Mitchell, Bateman and co.

smokey it's hard for Richmond to make money to match these other clubs when we continually had a crap list from finishing ninth most years hence didn't playing finals regularly. We also have for years already subsidised other clubs with our poor stadia deals despite top 4 crowds every year for the past 45 years at the 'G. So we have already being screwed on that front thanks to the MCC taking us for granted. We won't start making mega-$$$, having 75k members etc until we get a successful side on the park playing finals regularly. Once again that comes back to first building a quality list via the draft with access to as many of the most talented kids found now at the top end of the draft.
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Offline Smokey

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2010, 08:27:29 AM »

hawthorn tanked...


Really?  What year(s) would that be in?


2004/2005 thought that was obvious?


I would be interested to know just when in season 2004 that you think Hawthorn made the decision to tank?  Would it have been around halfway through when they were on the bottom of the ladder with 2 wins from 11 games and a percentage of 75.1% or would it have been much earlier than that (remembering of course that this was the season that cost their coach his job)?  It certainly couldn't have been any later because that position right there tells me that they were absolute crap anyway and didn't have to change one single thing to end up where they did.  And remember that this was the year when their coach told all and sundry during the pre-season that they would "win the premiership"!  If they were tanking then why did they beat us so convincingly in Round 21 and consign themselves to the 2nd pick instead of the 'coveted' 1st pick?  So just when did this team sitting on the bottom of the ladder halfway through a 'premiership winning' season decide to change it's tack and deliberately lose games?

And when in 2005 exactly did they start?  Remember this was Clarkson's first year in which he conducted a major cleanout of players and introduced a completely different gameplan and work ethic to a very young and inexperienced list.  Sound familiar to another team currently sitting 15th who has just recently been described by many experts as the worst ever in the history of the competition?  If they were tanking then why did they beat the team below them in Round 17 to effectively end their chance of finishing with the 1st pick?  Tanking teams do not give up those 'prized' picks 1 or 2 places higher without a serious fight.  Halfway through the season Hawthorn were 15th with 3 wins and a percentage of 96%, by season's end they were 14th with 5 wins and a percentage of 82%.  Hhhmm, a young inexperienced side with a new coach learning a completely different (and unique at the time) gameplan improved it's ladder position in the 2nd half of the season despite winning less games and dropping significant percentage.  Yep, some real tanking indicators right there, nothing at all to do with the reality of how capable and good they were at the time.

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as for your second comment, i cannot believe you are serious. You need to learn to walk before you run, how about getting the talent to be thereabts and "in the game" before starting to think premierships? At least it fast tracks them to get into a position were they can strike at a flag. Hawthorn got it all right with their development and did it quick, carlton and melbourne may not win a flag but they've assembled the talent from which to load a shot at a flag in te next few yrs which is more than can be said about our dud club!
Tanking isnt as black or white as win or lose a flag, its about giving smart clubs the opportunity to fastrack improvement and put them in the mix, once there its up to coaching/development/injuries some intangibles and a little bit of luck to take you all the way


Walk before you run?  How about teaching the players you have, to walk before they run?  You might find it interesting to know that in Clarkson's first 3 years in charge he turned over 21 players from his starting list.  During the same 3 years Richmond turned over 24 players.  Clarkson had 8 Top 20 picks in his 1st 3 years (end 04, end 05, end 06), Richmond had 7.  So in spite of both clubs starting from similar ladder positions, new coaching groups, similar high draft picks and significant list cleanouts, one team went on to win a flag while the other has had zero success and not improved one iota.  And you would have me believe that this was because Hawthorn supposedly tanked in 04/05?  Winning flags is all about those "intangibles" you mention in passing and nothing to do with the number of high draft picks you receive - that is the reality of it.  Those "intangibles" are the core of it but sadly the tanking proponents allow themselves to be blinded by the lure of the quick fix and easy road.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2010, 09:41:15 AM »

smokey it's hard for Richmond to make money to match these other clubs when we continually had a crap list from finishing ninth most years hence didn't playing finals regularly. We also have for years already subsidised other clubs with our poor stadia deals despite top 4 crowds every year for the past 45 years at the 'G. So we have already being screwed on that front thanks to the MCC taking us for granted. We won't start making mega-$$$, having 75k members etc until we get a successful side on the park playing finals regularly. Once again that comes back to first building a quality list via the draft with access to as many of the most talented kids found now at the top end of the draft.

Our lack of money is entirely of our own making and we are the only ones who can control fixing it.  We have already discussed the value of having a sufficiently resourced football department and if we want that then we have to make all the moves to achieve it.  Whether we are subsidizing other clubs through stadia deal is quite irrelevant - it doesn't stop other clubs from being financially responsible enough to cope with similar bad deals and still provide their football departments with ample resources.  The sooner we stop blaming everything around us for our problems and looking for assistance from anyone who will give it then the better off we will be.  One second spent on worrying about financial inequalities or complaining because other clubs have conducted themselves more successfully and professionally than us is another second we have to wait until the realization sinks in that there are no knights in shining armour or Good Samaritans out there coming to our rescue.  If we sit back thinking that our financial salvation will come from better crowds and memberships driven by increased on field success then we will only be repeating the stupid mistakes of years gone by.  Any extra crowd-driven revenue should be the unplanned and unbudgeted icing on the cake, the real long term positive changes in our financial position will come from our efforts in conducting ourselves as a viable and professional business entity with multiple strong income sources, sound investments and controlled spending mechanisms.  When, and only when we devote all our energies to improving our club's position by all the means at our disposal will true improvement come.

We signed those stadia deals, we failed to recruit well, we failed to staff well, we failed to govern and manage well, we failed to coach well, we failed to play well.  Us, us, us, not them, them, them.  We won't start to be successful on the field until we can afford to match the other successful clubs in spending wisely on development and other critical football areas, getting and wasting more and more high draft picks obtained through tanking or sheer incompetence will not make one scrap of difference.  And that is why I have warmed to March as our president in recent years.  He has been resolute in his efforts to stabilize our board and our finances, increasing the spending in our football department each and every year without risking further financial hardship before he has gone about changing the football department itself.  Very thankfully he has put the horse before the cart.

No-one said it would be easy to climb out of the abyss successive regimes at Richmond have put this club into.  But the ONLY way to climb out and stay out is through hard work, sacrifice, honesty, transparency and professionalism in all our dealings in all areas of the club.  When we regain the respect of our supporters, our opponents and ourselves then we will be on the path to strength and success, and not a moment before.  Respect will not come through reliance on tanking and it will not come through reliance on financial handouts.

I try (and don't always succeed) to live my life by an ethos of "don't blame me".  By that I mean that to spend even one nano-second of my time blaming something or someone else for anything that hasn't gone my way is self-defeating and a sheer waste of my much too precious time.  I am responsible for every single thing - good or bad - that has happened to me in my life and only I can change what I don't like.  And that is how I see it for our club.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2010, 09:44:48 AM »
:lol
it seems that every side that has finished last has "tanked"
 :ROTFL


Isn't that the truth Al!  I wonder if other clubs will look back on us in a few years time saying we tanked in 04, 07, 09 and 10?

Offline Fishfinger

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2010, 09:50:50 AM »
If Hawthorn tanked in that 2005 round 21 game then so did Richmond. And Richmond didn't.

Richmond pegged back that 7 goal half-time lead. Hawthorn, again, got 7 goals up. Richmond, again, pegged it back.

Great game to be at for polar emotions during it.

As an aside, Roughead got crunched and while the ball was up the other end Richo helped him up and led him to the trainers while patting him on the back.
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jackstar is back again

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2010, 10:00:47 AM »
Will put an end to 5 pages of rubbish topic.
we dont tank.
very simple.
Talk and debate all you want,

Offline Smokey

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2010, 10:24:25 AM »
Will put an end to 5 pages of rubbish topic.


I'll bet it doesn't and why is it a rubbish topic?  I would have thought that over a long period it has been a very interesting and well debated thread on a topic very much in the public eye?

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Re: Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2010, 10:46:06 AM »
as it doesnt happen at Punt Rd so why bother discussing it.
look how Carlton is travelling. move on