Almost guaranteed now a top 8 pick

[tiger till i die]

FF the win against the Bombers should never have happened and i dont think would've happened if we had a coach NOT playing for his future. If it was this year and Dimma was out there coaching do you really think he would try and win thus not enhancing his list.

That win meant nothing, felt like nothing and was just plain wrong especially when we could've landed a Bastinac etc in our mits

A meaningless win is just like that against the Bombers where a coach is doing everything he can to win to save his career. We all knew leather face was not going to be there next year so what point was it trying to win that crappy game for a coach that was on the way out.

Wallace was long gone. You could mount the case for Rawlings trying to get a job except then you ask me if I think Hardwick would try to win. Yes, I do.

That win felt really good to me. Going by the claw's reasoning about not beating eventual top 8 sides since 2001, it was a great win.

I suppose I'd best just agree to disagree because saying any win is "meaningless" is a nonsense.

sorry my mistake Rawlings was in charge your right.

I was really happy we lost every game under Rawlings  and would've been more happier had we lost all of them.

if you want to know the truth those losses under rawlings felt like wins for me because

a) and most importantly it meant he would not be our coach. He is and still isnt fit to be a senior coach of Oakleigh Reserves let alone our football club. A dud of the highest order who wouldve had us playing the same crap as we did with leather face.

and B) we were closer to another gun in another super draft.

we got A but not B

looks like west cost will get the scraps of GC

[tony_montana]

Thanks for replying.  

You haven't answered, though. I've still got no idea what a "meaningless" win is.
I need to know which wins were "meaningless" and which weren't to have any chance of ever understanding.
I actually don't think there is any such thing but I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

You say 2 wins last year were "meaningless". Which 2?

ask yourself since we last made finals in 01 how many  eventual top 8 sides have we beaten

We beat Essendon last year. They were an eventual top 8 side.
It was also the win which made us ineligible for a priority pick.

Was that a "meaningless" win?

so in what way did that win mean anything to this side?

for mine it was meaningless, cost us a PP which would have been worth more to this football club long term than a win against an overachieving bombers side.

[Ox]

sorry my mistake Rawlings was in charge your right.

I was really happy we lost every game under Rawlings  and would've been more happier had we lost all of them.

if you want to know the truth those losses under rawlings felt like wins for me because

a) and most importantly it meant he would not be our coach. He is and still isnt fit to be a senior coach of Oakleigh Reserves let alone our football club. A dud of the highest order who wouldve had us playing the same crap as we did with leather face.

and B) we were closer to another gun in another super draft.

we got A but not B

Rawlings was smart enough to Banish Bowden,the greatest example of individual mentality in what i think was a necessary stance in showing to the younger group that there is no "I" in team...

[mightytiges]

I'll bite....

A "meaningless" win is classed as any win(s) that happen after the season is shot when you are still below the PP threshold that then puts you over the 4-wins threshold.

Our last four seasons have been shot by round 11 and I'm being generous. All but 2008 were shot within the first month  .

             R1-11                 R12-22
2007:   0-10-1 (16th)      3-8     (16th)    .......... top 20 PP which we traded away for Jordie so we threw it away  .
2008:   3-7-1   (12th)      8-3     (9th)     .......... no PP
2009:   2-9      (15th)      3-7-1  (15th)   .......... no PP
2010:   1-10     (16th)     5-3*    (15th*) .......... no PP

We were the first side in the era of PPs to finish 15th without gaining a PP btw last year and possibly will repeat that stat this year.

Furthermore you or more particularly the list manager along with heads of the footy dept. also judge how far away as a team and list you are from becoming a top side. If you're grinding out wins in low standard games against other mediocre sides yet you are non-competitive against the better sides then you're daylight away and winning games late in the season is fool's gold which just hurts you at the draft table where you need to access the top end of the draft where most of the talented kids are that will improve your list both in quality and depth.

In our case blind freddy knew halfway through last year that we would struggle in 2010 and more than likely in 2011 given the loss of experience and the increased youth of the list. Clearly our list manager was asleep at the wheel as far as long term planning to maximise the draft options available  .

[Fishfinger]

A "meaningless" win is classed as any win(s) that happen after the season is shot when you are still below the PP threshold that then puts you over the 4-wins threshold.

Thankyou.   That's a fair explanation. Not that I'm an advocate of managing any loss.

It's in the terminology then because those wins may not have helped to possibly structure a stronger list but they were not meaningless. No wins are.

Just thinking back to Richmond's last proper resurgence, in 1979 3 wins and 8 losses at the halfway mark.
Thankfully PPs and tanking for them weren't around because the tiges suddenly clicked and won 9 of the last 11 to miss the finals but get momentum which carried into 1980.

[yellowandback]

Right now, after 3 bad losses, any wins this deep into the season with pick 6 vs 8 or 12 at stake make for a meaningless win.

We won't beat the saints and do not need to beat port.  We do not need to tank to lose to the power. Rest cotch, play will at ff for the experience and zone your arse off (like the magpie game) for education. We'll learn and lose. Pick 6 nice one!!!?

[Penelope]

The strongest side available will be picked against port. If cotchin wasn't going to play then he wouldn't play this week either. Last game for cuz the players will be fired up. Will finish the season with a win.

If we do win, I challenge anyone to go to the players after the game and tell them that it was a meaningless win and see what reaction they get.

[Chuck17]

I think a number of players will be playing their ring out to give Cuz a good going out.

I also think most supporters would not classify a win in Cuz's last game as meaningless

[Stripes]

MT's definition is a good one but I'll try and add to it.

For mine - A meaningless win is a win that creates negliable benefits to the club in retrospect and conversely may actually damages its future development.

So at a stage of the year when we are struggling to win against any team but the weakest and hover around the bottom of the ladder - wins become meaningless because they 1)do not help with team culture or supporter expectation moving into the next year (frequently creating false dawns and incorrect list judgements) and 2) hurt us at the trade & draft table in terms of bargining ability and choice.

The players never play to lose and nor should they. Player selection and coaching games with the future as a priority rather than the immediate win is the responsibility of the administration and needs to be made on behalf of their supporters. Very few supporters can see beyond the moment, beyond the next win and beyond the immediate future. It is the job of the administration to see beyond the emotion of the moment and 'meaningless wins' and do whatever they can to get us to our next flag.

Stripes

[Fishfinger]

So, do you actually believe that there are meaningless wins or is it some kind of throw-away term which belies the definition of the word meaningless?

If winning was meaningless I wouldn't bother.

[Judge Roughneck]

Drop cousins for round 22 and debut contin

[Stripes]

So, do you actually believe that there are meaningless wins or is it some kind of throw-away term which belies the definition of the word meaningless?

If winning was meaningless I wouldn't bother.

I think for the players and supporters striving to win at all costs is far from meaningless but taking emotion out of the equation and looking big-picture = absolutely. Some wins are worst that meaningless - some are actually detrimental.

If a club is sitting on 4 wins at the end of a year, playing another club who will finish bottom of the table too in the last game of the year...will that win be meaningful if they miss out on a priority pick? I ask you is that win meaningful? Will it bring anyone lasting benefits? Will it even be remembered when the same club continues to see other clubs pass them by up the ladder as they suffer from poor draft choices, poor players, poor development, poor culture and poor performances year after year?

After the Melbourne win last year I felt gutted but that win was a loss for me. A win is when you are a success - when a victory reduces you chances of future success its no longer a win to me - its meaningless, its a loss.

As the old saying goes - 'Win the battle, lose the war'. Is wins ever meaningless - you bet.

Stripes

[Infamy]

Drop cousins for round 22 and debut contin

You idiot!

[Judge Roughneck]

why?

cousins has no part in our future 2011+

grimes or contin might

Drop cousins for round 22 and debut contin

You idiot!

[Penelope]

Geez! i thought you were poo stirring