Author Topic: AFL proposal for clubs to add pre-1897 VFA flags (so not ours)  (Read 4225 times)

Offline one-eyed

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Geelong president Colin Carter wants VFA flags counted to premiership tally

    Mike Sheahan
    From: Sunday Herald Sun
    June 12, 2011


GEELONG president Colin Carter has launched the opening salvo in the battle that could rejig the sacred AFL premiership table.

Speaking at the pre-match function before the Geelong-Hawthorn game at the MCG, Carter said it was time to reclaim 20 years of forgotten history in assessing the game's traditional order of merit.

The former AFL commissioner said premierships won in the Victorian Football Association from 1877 to 1896, when the breakaway Victorian Football League was formed, must be recognised by the AFL.

The full revised table (which is given in the HS newspaper but not online) would be:

20 Essendon (+4)
18 Carlton (+2)
16 Collingwood (+1)
15 Geelong (+7)
12 Melbourne (0)
10 Richmond (0)
10 Hawthorn (0)
9 Fitzroy (+1)
9 Sydney (+5)
4 North Melbourne (0)
3 West Coast, Brisbane
2 Adelaide
1 St.Kilda (0)
1 Western Bulldogs (0)
1 Port Adelaide

Read more: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/geelong-president-colin-carter-wants-vfa-flags-counted/story-e6frf9jf-1226073590404

Offline Coach

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Re: AFL proposal for clubs to add pre-1897 VFA flags (so not ours)
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2011, 04:35:06 AM »
How about no mate

Dubstep Dookie

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Re: AFL proposal for clubs to add pre-1897 VFA flags (so not ours)
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2011, 07:00:53 AM »
Funny. Why would Geelong be pushing for this?  ::)

You'd set a precedent for Port to try to use too. In their eyes anyway

Hellenic Tiger

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Re: AFL proposal for clubs to add pre-1897 VFA flags (so not ours)
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2011, 12:47:31 PM »
I thought we had two VFA premierships both circa 1904ish and against the Skataboners hence our application was accepted by the VFL.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: AFL proposal for clubs to add pre-1897 VFA flags (so not ours)
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2011, 02:08:18 PM »
I thought we had two VFA premierships both circa 1904ish and against the Skataboners hence our application was accepted by the VFL.
Yep we won in 1902 and 1905. However this guy only wants to include VFA premierships won prior to the formation of the VFL in 1897. Dumb idea. The VFL and VFA were separate competitions and the split was bitter especially with the old VFA. When Richmond was still playing in the VFA towards the end we organised practice games against VFL sides. The VFA threatened Richmond with expulsion but it was weak threat that they couldn't enforce as we were their biggest drawcard and they knew if they tossed us out the VFL would allow us to join their comp. In the end we dumped the VFA and joined the VFL in 1908 along with University with North missing out lol until 1925. The rest is history as they say. You can still see the VFA/VFL schism in old "Association" types in recent times that have no time for "League" football and don't like the old VFA being called the current VFL. Phil Cleary comes to mind.
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Offline one-eyed

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Re: AFL proposal for clubs to add pre-1897 VFA flags (so not ours)
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2019, 10:56:11 PM »
A radical 24-page proposal to “reclaim the history’’ of the AFL is being presented to club presidents today and looks set to be accepted by the AFL Commission.

The landmark proposal calls for premierships won between 1870 and 1896 to be officially recognised and player records during the “foundation years’’ to be included in the official history of the game.

The proposal, which has been obtained by the Herald Sun, is the brainchild of former commissioner and current Geelong president Colin Carter.

Geelong won seven VFA flags before 1897.



https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/afl-commission-considers-proposal-to-backdate-footy-records-to-1870/news-story/99b4a8238de7ace75a60a8230d424be7

Offline Diocletian

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Re: AFL proposal for clubs to add pre-1897 VFA flags (so not ours)
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2019, 11:17:04 PM »
Haha GAGF...... it really is becoming the Geelong Football League.....bet Wimpley & SHocking had a hand in this too.... :shh
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Offline one-eyed

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Re: AFL proposal for clubs to add pre-1897 VFA flags (so not ours)
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2023, 11:15:12 PM »
The Geelong cabal are still trying to push this  ::).

-----------------------------------------------------

Carter out to right the footy record, not rewrite it

Greg Baum
The Age
January 31, 2023 — 7.00pm


The AFL has not shut the book on a decade-long campaign by former commissioner and Geelong president Colin Carter to revise the game’s history in a way that would deliver the Cats an extra seven premierships and promote Carlton to the top of the flag table outright.

In his book Football’s Forgotten Years, launched on Tuesday, Carter argues strongly for the incorporation into the records of 27 years of the VFA before the establishment of the breakaway VFL in 1897, saying the competition then was popular, its clubs familiar and the game recognisable as the forerunner of today’s AFL.

“For the past 100 years, since the mid-1920s, the AFL has celebrated 1897 as its starting year,” Carter said when launching the book in an MCC library packed with footy dignitaries, including AFL Commission chairman Richard Goyder. “That date is wrong. New research makes it very clear that our VFL founders, the VFL clubs and football media regarded 1870 as the first year.”

Carter admits that the impetus for his mission was the “discovery” of Geelong’s ghost premierships when he was president. But he fortifies it with a wealth of painstakingly unearthed evidence and the unequivocal support of revered historian Geoffrey Blainey, another Geelong man as it happens and an attendee at the launch.

“In our conversation, he didn’t mess around,” Carter said. “He told me that the AFL records are wrong as a result of a dispute between rival football officials.”

Launching the book, AFL chief executive Gil McLachlan said that the AFL had already gone as far as updating player records in the new season’s media guide. “Whether the competition records change is a discussion to be had,” he said, “but I acknowledge the contribution of the players, the clubs and administrators of the day on the development of our game.

“I am not here today to confirm Colin’s thesis … but nor am I here to dispute his conclusion. That’s for our historians, our clubs, to examine closely and no doubt expand the debate, and I am sure on the back of his work our AFL Commission will have a wider discussion.”

Carter said the 1897 schism obscured Australian rules’ international pioneer status. “Importantly, the AFL has a significant claim to be the oldest football competition in the world, and that is no small matter,” he said.

By the 1870s, the VFA was drawing crowds of 15,000, then unknown anywhere else. In 1886, South Melbourne and Geelong played off for the championship at the Lakeside Oval before a crowd of 34,000. Melbourne’s population then was less than 400,000.

Carter said changes in the way the game was played between the VFA and AFL eras were irrelevant because the game has always changed. Geelong CEO Steve Hocking, who experimented freely with changes during his time as AFL footy manager, was an attendee.

“Every premiership from 1870 to 1896 was won by a team that is still in the AFL today,” Carter said. Geelong won seven, including six in a seven-year stretch. Carlton won six, South Melbourne five and Essendon four, all in row.

But poor old St Kilda, though part of the competition by all its name since day dot, would not add to its single flag. This was scarcely music to the ears of Saints president Andrew Bassatt, who was there.

Carter said he has met strong opposition to his crusade. “I’ve been accused of trying to rewrite history, or just to Geelong’s premiership tally,” he said. “History was rewritten, but not by me.

“It’s time to reclaim the historical narrative of the game’s founding. The records are wrong and it’s time to put things right.

“The premiership list will change, club and player records will be expanded, the competition’s first 300-game player will change, and some will not welcome these changes.

“But … a true history of the game is far more important.”

How the flag table would change

      Including VFA 1870-1896      1897-2022
Carlton                              22   16
Essendon                          20   16
Geelong                            17   10
Collingwood                       16   15
Melbourne                         16   13
Richmond                          13   13
Hawthorn                          13   13
South Melbourne/Sydney    10   5
Fitzroy                                9   8
North Melbourne                  4   4
West Coast                          4   4
Brisbane Lions                     3   3
Footscray/Western Bulldogs  2   2
Adelaide                             2   2
St Kilda                              1   1
Port Adelaide                      1   1
Fremantle                          0   0
GWS                                  0   0
Gold Coast                         0   0
Brisbane Bears                   0   0
University                          0   0

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carter-out-to-right-the-footy-record-not-rewrite-it-20230131-p5cgvq.html