Our List

[mightytiges]

How would you grade each of our blokes? Who would you categorise as grade A, B or C (based on them being fully fit)?

Grade A: Top shelf in the comp. Skillful, consistent performances, leaders, physically and mentally tough. Other clubs would love to have them in their side.
Grade B: Serviceable. Would easily get a AFL game but wouldn't be the end of the world if they departed.
Grade C: Either too young to judge yet or not up to AFL standard.

Thoughts?

[Harry]

Grade A - Brown.

Grade B - Richo, Ottens, Tivendale, Krakour, Johnson, Campbell, Newman, Coughlan, Staff.

Grade c - the rest (note there are 7-8 youngsters for whom it is too early to judge)

From the B graders Krakouer, Newman, and Coughlan have the potential to be A graders if playing under a good coach and alongside better teamates.  Richo, Campbell and Staff are nearing the end of their carreers and really haven't reached superstar status.  Ottens is a tricky one - He has what it takes but his lack of aggression really lets him down.  Johnson was always a B grader at Adelaide and hasn't got what it takes to make the A grade due to his lack of vision and awareness.  Tivendale is a very useful player but his lack of hardness will prevent him taking the next step.

All in all the future of the RFC revolves around 7 players IMO - Newman, Krakour, Tivendale, Coughlan, Ottens, Johnson, and Brown.  Pretty pathetic when you think about the fact that Frawley has had 5 years to develop a list.

[froars]

Is really hard to rate our list at the moment when they're playing like dogs and you know some of them can play better.  Can we keep this sticky and rate them after a few more games.  I'm afraid if i go thru it now it will have D for Dud next to nearly all of them.  I'm hoping we'll eventually become more competitive this year and at least be able to see them when theyr'e having a go and then rate them. 

As they currently stand, how can you rate them.  Bowden playing good at the moment, but a couple of weeks ago and over the last couple of seasons you wouldn't have been even able to trade him. 

I'll pass for now.

[Harry]

Froars - we've had at least 3-4 years to judge the current senior regulars.  Last weeks game does not change what you think of the players.

Don't sit on the fence girl - you butt will get sore.

[mightytiges]

Grade A:

A+:

Brown (excellent skills and decision making, footy brain, versatile)
Coughlan (good skills, decent decision making, wins the hard ball consistently, footy brain)

A-:

Cambo (excellent skills, decent decision making, consistent ball winner, Grade A when fully fit but ? in regards to age catching up with him - retire?) 
Richo (Grade A+++++ when on song - matchwinner, can fall to Grade C standard when off and frustrated, the former this year when supply is half decent)

Grade B:

B+

Johnson (good skills, decent decision making, consistent ball winner, has fluffed disposal every now and then)
Otto (should be Grade A and in many games is but now and then falls away in intensity. Needs to have more presence before jumping to the higher grade)
Gaspar (reliable pre-knee, good reader of the flight of the ball, kicking action suspect)
Bowden (good skills however decision making and concentration laspes)
Andrew Kellaway (reliable and courageous, better disposal skills than his brother but still not quite a natural) 
Krakouer (excellent skills, decision making, needs more consistency and bulk (toning) if he is to get to Grade A)
Newman (see Krakouer in terms of what he needs to do)
Stafford (reliable, good skills for a big man)
Tivendale (He's a barometer for us, excellent skills on left but one-sided is his main hinderence.)

B-:

Chaffey (has been a reliable HBF however foot skills have dropped away this year. Needs to lift his game or find himself listed a Grade C, footy brain questionable)
Fiora (Improving albeit very slowly, good skills although decision making can let him done from time to time, footy brain questionable, needs to add bulk)
Hall (Last year Grade C but has over the last month improved to be not bad at FB. Still ?s. Seems to have a good natural kicking action for a big guy)   
Hyde (Grade C last year but has improved this year. natural skill level seems good, ? over footy brain, needs to add bulk)
Schulz (Has shown natural footy ability, still inconsistent although he's young and his kicking for goal needs to improve)
Zantuck (useful as a defender but poor attitude is hindering him big time)
Morrison (appears to short for KP but not mobile enough for elsewhere. B- as he's still new)
Weller (see Morrison)
Roach (excellent pace and good skills, still too light on, B- as he's new.)

Grade C:

Not up to standard:

Fleming (poor skills),
Fletcher (poor skills),
Hilton (lacks pace),
Houlihan (lacks pace),
Duncan Kellaway (poor foot skills, body letting him down - retire), 
Marsh (lacks mobility for modern day bigmen)
Pettifer (poor intensity, shys away from contests, does have natural skills though - poor footy brain?)
Rodan (too short and has lost those clean hands he had when he first arrived).
Rogers (poor disposal, getting on in age - retire)
Blumfield (might be being harsh as he keeps getting injured. Grade B when at Essendon but too many ?s at the minute.)

Too young/new to judge: Archibald (OP), Gilmour, Raines, Tuck, Dragga, Foley, Moore, Hartigan, Jackson


I know I've been kind to some.

[Harry]

I know I've been kind to some.

Just a tad Mighty.  You have 22 players ranked as B- and above.  In other words we could fill a team of B graders and up.  Its your opinion I know, but I think its way too kind.  I rank a B grader as a player that can be a regular second string player in a Brisbane.  You probably don't have as high expectations on your B graders.

It also appears you've lumped in players that its too early to judge in as B-.  ie Morrison, Weller, Schulz, Roach, etc.- its way too early to pass judgement on these guys.  There's the same chance they will be duds than there is that they will be B graders at most.

[froars]

A List

Mark Coughlan – I think he impressed enough last year for other clubs to be getting their brown paper bags ready.  Injury a set back, and I’m hoping this is not one that will haunt him through his career, but I expect him to go on when he comes back to bigger and better things.

Nathan Brown – a star.  He really is the real deal.  I can’t knock him in any aspect so far.

Brad Ottens – I don’t reckon he’s a great ruckman – despite how many tap outs he gets, they go usually to the opposition – I think other clubs would see his value and would be snared in a heartbeat.

Darren Gasper – I think smart clubs would see that his performances this year are due to his injury and would take a gamble on him if he was available.

Chris Newman – very reliable – any team would want him.

Richo – not sure if he’s still valuable to other teams this late in his career, but I’d take a punt there’d be a club out there that would snap him up.  Put him in a great team with players that can acknowledge his leads with good passes, they’d be laughing.

Krakouer – going on MT’s criteria, I would be devastated if another club got hold of him and nurtured and developed him into the player like his dad.  A must keep a couple more years, but his inconsistency is a worry.  I put him before Bowden and Tivvas because of that unknown potential.

B List

Bowden – If he kept on playing like we know he’s got the capacity to do, and stopped playing like a princess, he could do anything and any club would want him.  But to date, he’s proved nothing with his disinterested and lazy style of play.  Gets lots of possessions, but is not damaging.  Looking forward to a big year from him.  Since his demotion to the reserves I can’t knock his performances since his return.

Johnston – Funny thing is, he’s like Campbell to me – he doesn’t stand out and a lot of the things he does go unnoticed by me.  But he’s up there with Bowden, and look forward to better things. 

Greg Tivendale – luv his kicking, but as Harry said, lacks hardness. 

Hartigan – he just looks like a real pro.

C List

The rest are either:

- the unknown factor (Jay Schulz, Hall, Roach, Raines, Hyde, Archibald etc),

- the ones with niggling injuries who just never seem to come up consistently (Campbell, Stafford, Blumfield),

- the guys who have been regulars, but not playing well at the moment (Zantuck, Chaffey, Rodan, Fiora, A Kellaway);

- the guys I’d luv to do well, but so far not up to it (Fleming, Hilton)

- then the WTF  are you guys still doing on an AFL list (D Kellaway, Rogers, Fletcher, NIcholls, Marsh, Morrison, Petticoat, Weller, Houligan)

[mightytiges]

Just a tad Mighty.  You have 22 players ranked as B- and above.  In other words we could fill a team of B graders and up.  Its your opinion I know, but I think its way too kind.  I rank a B grader as a player that can be a regular second string player in a Brisbane.  You probably don't have as high expectations on your B graders.

It also appears you've lumped in players that its too early to judge in as B-.  ie Morrison, Weller, Schulz, Roach, etc.- its way too early to pass judgement on these guys.  There's the same chance they will be duds than there is that they will be B graders at most.

Yeah, my defintions are different. That's why I added the +/-. A B+ is either a definite B or someone who has the potential to become an A Grader. A B- is someone who is in between B and C -> not yet a confirmed dud nor a reliable player. Thought it a but unfair to chuck in Schulz with the likes of Houlihan. Hartigan should be also a B-. The young ones are those who I haven't seen play league footy ever or recently (dragga).

As a comparison with Brisbane and the Saints:
 
Grade A: Voss, Black, Aka, Lappin, Lynch, Brown, Michael, Leppitsch, Johnson, Power. (10)
B+: Pike, Hart, White, C.Scott, B.Scott, Keating, McDonald, Charman, Brennan, Copeland, Caracella, Bradshaw, McRae, Notting. (14)

St Kilda:
Grade A: Riewoldt, Hamill, Gehrig, Harvey, Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Koschitzke, Thompson (9)
B+: Powell,. Hudgton, Goddard, Clarke, Milne, Guerra, Maguire, Black, Baker,  Jones, Knobel, Voss, Blake, Penny (14)

24 and 23 B+'s or higher respectively. At least twice as many as us in both A's and B+'s (IMHO of course). Surprise surpise we lack depth!

Take my B+'s as your B's Harry and my B-'s as your C's.

 

[JohnF]

A+:

No one. This is the absolute champion category (Hird, Voss category)

A:

Brown - quick, intelligent footy player with uncanny ball sense that can kick with both feet and win matches off his own boot(s)

B+:

Campbell - Damaged goods, but the most intelligent player we have and still knows how to get the footy, has very solid basic skills.

Coughlan - Goes in like no other, gets plenty of it, but still needs to work on decision making and disposal

B:

Richardson - An on his day player. Some days he's A grade, some days he's C grade, overall, B grade.
Johnson - Solid contributor with nothing flashy. Some ordinary disposal has crept into his game which is a bit of a worry.
Ottens - potential aside, he is a B grade footballer. Lots of natural ability but doesn't always think about his ruck work. Could be a B+ player if he was a bit more agressive and rucked to our advantage.
Tivendale - Has improved his consistency over the last couple of years, but still goes missing some times. Damaging when he is on song.
Krakouer - Good skills and reads the play well, tackles well. Needs more consistency and to improve his fitness/physique.
A Kellaway - Solid competitor who wins most of his battles against his opponents
Stafford - Bit of an enforcer. Consistently good, but goes missing one in a while.
Newman - Disciplined player with good basic skills
Bowden - Borderline C+. Recieves a lot of the ball but wastes it too often and puts in some insipid defensive efforts sometimes.
Chaffey - B grade before this year, but slowly slipping. Making errors in judgement and hasn't been taking the type of marks he was taking in years gone by.
Gaspar - playing like a C grader at the moment. But he has been a failry good backman in the past. Skills are schit though.

C+:

Zantuck - There's a good footballer waiting to come out of him. Mindset might hold him back.
Hall - Could rise to a B grade if he worked on his disposal and put some muscle on.
Fiora - Looks flashy but doesn't use his noggin. Skills are sometimes poor as well.
Fleming - poo skills, but is getting plenty of it of late and does some not bad tagging jobs. Another who doesn't always use his brains.
Hyde - Getting better, but still fringe
Pettifer - Borderline C. He can play, but lack of spine and mental softness are holding him back.
Roach - Showing good signs already
Hartigan - Ditto
Blumfield - Has good skills, good footy brain, but looks disinterested, borderline C.
Rodan - Needs to work on his fitness if he is to survive at AFL. Borderline C. Hasn't really got a good footy brain.
Marsh - Back up, nothing more, nothing less

C:

Houlihan - stuff him off.
D Kellaway - His body's gone, no skills
Rogers - Looks like an aging boxer, looks to have lost his equilibrium, wobblly with the ball in his hands, sheitty skills,
Nicholls - Maccas or Burger King
Dragga - knee-capped, gone
Morrison - Not good enough
Weller - Snail
Hilton - only hope is a sports psychologist and someone forcing him to bust his balls on the training track
Schulz - Too early to call, needs to add some strength. Looks to have potential, but I'm not holding my breath.
Fletcher - not up to it

Haven't seen the rest play 

[Struggletown]

Grade A - Brown.

Grade B - Richo, Ottens, Tivendale, Krakour, Johnson, Campbell, Newman, Coughlan, Staff.

Grade c - the rest (note there are 7-8 youngsters for whom it is too early to judge)

From the B graders Krakouer, Newman, and Coughlan have the potential to be A graders if playing under a good coach and alongside better teamates.  Richo, Campbell and Staff are nearing the end of their carreers and really haven't reached superstar status.  Ottens is a tricky one - He has what it takes but his lack of aggression really lets him down.  Johnson was always a B grader at Adelaide and hasn't got what it takes to make the A grade due to his lack of vision and awareness.  Tivendale is a very useful player but his lack of hardness will prevent him taking the next step.

All in all the future of the RFC revolves around 7 players IMO - Newman, Krakour, Tivendale, Coughlan, Ottens, Johnson, and Brown.  Pretty pathetic when you think about the fact that Frawley has had 5 years to develop a list.

Im almost in entire agreeance with Harry, l would have had Cogs at B+ or borderline A but for his injury hampering him this season.Fully fit he will become A lm sure.
Newman is a player l like but l still believe he is limited and can never become a damaging player,but a very good hard-working guy who gets the best from himself.
Richo is A+ to F- depending on what week it is.Can do anything and unfortunately usually does... both good and bad.If he had consistency he would be an A.
Ottens and to a lesser extent Bowden are great talents who havent progressed.
Otto has the tools but just doesn't impose or kick enough goals when pushing forward...not damaging enough all over the park lm afraid. 

The rest Hoggy is spot on.

[WilliamPowell]

Grade A: Top shelf in the comp. Skillful, consistent performances, leaders, physically and mentally tough. Other clubs would love to have them in their side.
Grade B: Serviceable. Would easily get a AFL game but wouldn't be the end of the world if they departed.
Grade C: Either too young to judge yet or not up to AFL standard.

This being such a toughie I have added another couple of grades.

Similar to JohnF I have a grade: C+ = for the kids I think will make it,
and grade F: for those I think should be gone

Grade A: Nathan Brown - the one thing that becomes more obvious as the weeks go by is how much better he is against those players we have considered grade A in the past. Kane Johnson is a borderline B going on A

Grade B: Coughlan, Richardson, Tivendale, Campbell, Stafford, Ottens, Newman, Bowden (only when he is switched on which has not been enough in the last 3 years IMO), Andy Kellaway, Andy Krakouer, Gaspar

Grade C+: the kids who I think will make it: Hartigan, Jackson, Schulz, Roach, Raines (big call I know but from what I have seen at VFL level he has a good chance). Gilmour and Achibald need to see more of them. Moore the rookie: PROMOTE

Grade C: Chaffey (refer golden turnup) he has lost me this season - frustrating
Ray Hall: I am still undecided
Morrison: stop playing him at CHB at Coburg and play him at CHF (remember round 1)
Zantuck: who knows - he certainly appears that he doesn't -
Rodan: if you are going to pick him play him!
Nicholls: still cannot forget his game in round 22 last year – has courage to get the hard ball
Fleming: tough nut – enough said
Hyde: improved but I am still undecided
Blumfield: on notice
Weller: too early but worth the pick
Pettifer: last chance
Marsh: Back up only
Fiora: improved but last chance

Grade F: goodbye:
D. Kellaway
Rogers
Hilton: what a waste of talent
Houlihan
Fletcher: the biggest waste of a draft pick in 2003

Who have I forgotten

[Ox]

At the moment i cant give this thread the full respect it deserves,
so i wont.
I do how-ever look forward to jumping on after i get back to Oz NEXT WEEK

CHEEYAS.

[Fishfinger]

Grade A - Brown.

Grade B - Richo, Ottens, Tivendale, Krakour, Johnson, Campbell, Newman, Coughlan, Staff.

Grade c - the rest (note there are 7-8 youngsters for whom it is too early to judge)

I agree with 9 of your top 10 Harry.
I'm a fan of Newman but I think Ray Hall has leapt above him into that group. I thought Ray should have been traded but I got it totally wrong because he has developed unbelievably so far this year. He is young and the real bonus is that he has developed at Richmond rather than elsewhere and then been picked up.

[Rodgerramjet]

Grade A:

Brown (excellent skills and decision making, footy brain, versatile)
Coughlan (good skills, wins the hard ball consistently, )
Richo (What can you say, could also qualify for z grade if there was such a thing)
Otto (Other clubs would definetly swoop on him and since that is a qualifiying criteria for this thread he has to be an A)
Cambo (excellent skills, decent decision making, consistent ball winner) 


Grade B:

Johnson (decent decision making, consistent ball winner)
Gaspar (Suspect, has mental hurdles to overcome)
Bowden (He's worth holding on too.)
Andrew Kellaway (reliable and courageous) 
Krakouer (excellent skills, would be dynamite if he had some good players around him)
Newman (Needs to take another step)
Stafford (Not afraid to hurt the opposition, is an asset)
Tivendale (Not consistant enough)
Chaffey (See Tivendale)
Flemming (Tough, needs some mates),
Hall (Needs a good coach)   
Hyde (has improved )
Schulz (Needs a good coach to develop properly)
Zantuck (Could be a very very good player, not getting the proper guidance he should be getting, needs a good coach)
Morrison (servicable, but it wont take long for the coaching staff to ruin him)
Roach (Doing alright, needs good coaching development)
Rodan (The coaching staff have almost ruined this one, If he was to go to another club we would be paying for it in spades for years to come, lets hope the coaching staff get the chop before he does.).
Grade C:

Not up to standard:
Fiora (Trade ASAP)
Weller (Just a good ordinary footballer)
Fletcher (Brittain's contribution to the draft, enough said),
Hilton (Too injury prone, time to off load),
Houlihan (Can do some good things),
Duncan Kellaway (Injuries have killed him- retire), 
Marsh (Making up the numbers only)
Pettifer (Needed a good coach and guidance, If he had of gone to Essendon he would probably be doing very nicely now.)
Rogers (Times up- retire)
Blumfield (Who is he ???? enough said.)

Basically the coaching staff are killing off any potential that we have and must be gotten rid of before anymore damage is done to our list. As it is alot of our list has been ruined already.

[Harry]

Grade A - Brown.

Grade B - Richo, Ottens, Tivendale, Krakour, Johnson, Campbell, Newman, Coughlan, Staff.

Grade c - the rest (note there are 7-8 youngsters for whom it is too early to judge)

I agree with 9 of your top 10 Harry.
I'm a fan of Newman but I think Ray Hall has leapt above him into that group. I thought Ray should have been traded but I got it totally wrong because he has developed unbelievably so far this year. He is young and the real bonus is that he has developed at Richmond rather than elsewhere and then been picked up.

Fish,

Your entitled to your opinion but I beleive Hall isn't worthy to polish Newmans boots.

Just my opinion.