something positive.

[the claw]

okay with all the gloom about the place lets not forget the work that has been done. yes we are miles away but we do have a few building blocks in place.

i had a think on the 22 i would like to see next yr on a regular basis. i took into account experience size structure and of course a huge emphasis on the future. ive tried to select as many good kicks as possible and most definately as few poor decision makers as possible.

i looked at blokes like derickx  who has had injury and is new to afl. the same goes for dea had a lot of injury but a young player i really like.
i also took into account the amount of time the coach killers have been around some have size strength and yes experience but i tried to work out if we had enough big bodies in particular  to allow us to do away with these players.

personally i have 7 players in the gun from the list proper. i have tried to work out contracts and weather we have an abundance of type or weather we cant cover the loss/or will they be missed  of those to be delisted. people may say  some have trade value so be it, trade em but if we cant get a trade delist em.
those 7 are Jackson, White, Taylor, Farmer, Edwards, Thursfield, and Graham.
useing a bit of common sense if graham goes as he should we need to target a mature ruckman and not just sit back and hope a rookie like derickx will stand up.

i also have 4 rookies in the gun they are Miller, Hislop, Hicks, Westhoff. that means orielly will be given a contract jakobi retained and contin re rookied i still think this kid has the goods.
again common sense says by depleting the kpf stocks by getting rid of miller and westhoff we need to at the very least take 1 kpf in the draft/trade/rookie period.

anyway the side id like to see most next yr does offer some hope for the future it goes.

B/  Dea - Rance - Grimes.
HB/ Moore - Astbury - Batchelor.

C/ Conca - Martin - Newman.
R/ Derickx - Deledio - Cotchin.

HF/ Helbig - Riewoldt - Pick 10.
F/ Vickery - Griffiths - Macdonald.

Int/ Tuck - Foley - Houli - Nahas/Grigg.

of course with tuck and newman we have a couple of short term solutions due to age, moore may not recover from his hips. nahas and grigg imo are the better options going forward than others who have been cut doesnt say much about my confidence in them. then theres macdonald and dea who for various reasons havent done a lot. but there is improvement in nearly every player listed and those that dont bring something we need to the table if only in the short term.

to my way of thinking two very good drafts 2011 2012 where we actually find 6 or 8 players some astute trades where we find 3 or 4 older types and come 2013 while probably not a a top side we will have become competetive against most sides. the road is very long but there is some light at the end of the tunnell if you just look hard enough. to me the  pin prick of light wont become a full on glare for at least 3 or 4 yrs, so patience people.  just lower the short term expectation because the next couple of seasons are likely to be just as tough as the last 2.


 

[Judge Roughneck]

What I like is that the half dozen youngest players on the list are all in the team.
Same as my side for next season.
Expect I'd have oreilly in front of dea but happy with either.
Newman needs to go forward or mid.
Macdonald spot is a worry. He's done nothing this year to indicate he'll good enough for the small forward role. Troy Taylor would have been ideal.
Using claw 22 as a then filling in coburg team for next season shows what area we need to draft/trade next couple years.

[The Machine]

Looks to be a reasonable team claw. I like the look of the back 6 as it has good height and after another pre season it should have good bulk which is lacking at the moment. Derickx is interesting given he is exacly what we need. My opinion is the few training sessions i watched early this year and the limited game time he had in the nab cup he has shown 100% more than Browne & Gus combined. Cross fingers next year he is injury free and shows what he can produce because he can chase down and lay great tackles and he can take a great contested mark. How great would it be to see a Richmond ruckman take a big grab at a crucial stage in a game

[RollsRoyce]

Overall looks a well thought out list. Just a few points:
-I would definitely add McGuane to your 7 to be de-listed. I noticed he wasn't in your starting 22, so hopefully this was just an oversight.
-I'm not sure about your enthusiasm for Dea. From the little we saw of him at senior level last year last year, his decision-making and execution was appalling. Maybe it's the basketball background, but he still has a long way to go to turn these initial perceptions around IMO.
-Ditto Derickx. Prior to his latest injury I saw a fair bit of him at Coburg, and there was very little to get excited about.
 

[FooffooValve]

anyway the side id like to see most next yr does offer some hope for the future it goes.

B/  Dea - Rance - Grimes.
HB/ Moore - Astbury - Batchelor.

C/ Conca - Martin - Newman.
R/ Derickx - Deledio - Cotchin.

HF/ Helbig - Riewoldt - Pick 10.
F/ Vickery - Griffiths - Macdonald.

Int/ Tuck - Foley - Houli - Nahas/Grigg.


 

Don't disagree with some of your sentiments claw, but that is a shockingly unbalanced side. Top heavy at both ends, not enough ball users or run in the back half. No way are we going with Riewoldt, Vickery, Macdonald and Griffiths in the same forward line. We'd get absolutely slaughtered on the rebound. APart from needing a bigger bodied ruckman, we desperately need more transition pace. Hopefully pick 10 is bloody quick.

Doubt that Tuck will be there and if we get a McIntosh or similar, we have to give up something, so I'd say Foley or someone similar wouldn't be there either.

[MADTIGER2010]

Here's my 22 for 2012 with fairly realistic inclusions:

fb: batchelor rance newman
hb: grimes post deledio
c: conca cotchin morton
hf: houli griffiths king
ff: helbig vickery reiwoldt
foll: clarke martin foley
int: webberley astbury pick 1 mcguane(sub)

In: Z Clarke(freo), H McIntosh, Pick 1(midfielder)
Out: Thursfield, Moore, Miller, Hislop, White, Taylor, Farmer, Tuck, Hicks, Graham
Possible delistings for 2012: Edwards, Nason, Nahas, Jackson, Browne, Gourdis
I believe Post will do similar to what Rance has done this year. He's had very similar treatment this year to what Rance did last year

[Stripes]

Here's my 22 for 2012 with fairly realistic inclusions:

fb: batchelor rance newman
hb: grimes post deledio
c: conca cotchin morton
hf: houli griffiths king
ff: helbig vickery reiwoldt
foll: clarke martin foley
int: webberley astbury pick 1 mcguane(sub)

In: Z Clarke(freo), H McIntosh, Pick 1(midfielder)
Out: Thursfield, Moore, Miller, Hislop, White, Taylor, Farmer, Tuck, Hicks, Graham
Possible delistings for 2012: Edwards, Nason, Nahas, Jackson, Browne, Gourdis
I believe Post will do similar to what Rance has done this year. He's had very similar treatment this year to what Rance did last year

I take it by Pick 1 you mean our first pick?!

[Stripes]

those 7 are Jackson, White, Taylor, Farmer, Edwards, Thursfield, and Graham.
i also have 4 rookies in the gun they are Miller, Hislop, Hicks, Westhoff.

B/  Dea - Rance - Grimes.
HB/ Moore - Astbury - Batchelor.

C/ Conca - Martin - Newman.
R/ Derickx - Deledio - Cotchin.

HF/ Helbig - Riewoldt - Pick 10.
F/ Vickery - Griffiths - Macdonald.

Int/ Tuck - Foley - Houli - Nahas/Grigg.

I agree with all your delisting/trades though I feel we may have to give up a good player to trade well this year. A bit like when we traded our Collins, this decision/s may not be immediately popular with every supporter.

In terms of the team, I most like what you have put together. For mine, I'm not convinced Moore and Dea will be in the backline. Moore would be a short term fix at best and, despite what some posters on here feel, McGuane may be a better long term option. Secondly, I agree with RR here, the backline seems a little tall and lacking rebounding defenders. I would suggest moving either of Newman, Deledio, Grigg or Conca back to fill this role, preferably one of the first two.

Looking at your team, I see a desperate need for midfielder depth too. Tuck is not in our long term plans so we will definitely need another handful of midfielders to add to the mix come next year. I am hopeful of Helbig and if Contin can come through that would be exactly the type pf player we need to replace Tucky in the future. Once we have shored up our talls, it should allow us more room to add these midfielders.

Until McDonald and Derickx have shown anything to even vaguely warrant a spot then I would go with Nahas and our newly traded for ruckman. I'm hopeful both will come through, especially Derickx, but with Vickery and Nahas some of our best players this year, I feel they have more to offer presently (assuming we secure a number one ruckman of course  )

Still a fair few holes and little to no depth so the trade period and draft time has never been more crucial to our future.

Good attempt thoug claw and I agree with you - lots to be positive about! 

[Penelope]

another positive is that we have not sunk to the depths of port...yet. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXatqcigUFw

[WA Tiger]

Ok, so something positive....we will finish this year near the bottom which will give us better draft picks than had we finished 9th.....

We will be able to off load some of the rubbish players at the end of the year that call themselves AFL players.....

Great stuff!!!

[TigerTimeII]

all the potential positives we may have had this yr are gone, forget it , we have no positives facts are we have not progressed at all, yeah we turned over players yet its done sweet FA

[MADTIGER2010]

all the potential positives we may have had this yr are gone, forget it , we have no positives facts are we have not progressed at all, yeah we turned over players yet its done sweet FA

Think about the future for christs sake. We'll get a ruckman from another club. Maybe 2 ruckman. Mark it down. We'll also get a super midfielder with our first pick. Foley, Martin, Cotchin, Conca have only had 1 full preseason in the last 2-3 years. These 4 will be fitter and a top 10 midfielder will be added to this group plus 2 new high jumping ruckman will be giving them first use of the ball. The midfield will be twice as good in 2012.

The defence will be stronger with the return of Grimes and Astbury and the rise of Post. The forward line will improve as Griffiths gets more games. I think Morton has a bit to offer still and would like to see Helbig and Houli help out up forward

[MADTIGER2010]

Here's my 22 for 2012 with fairly realistic inclusions:

fb: batchelor rance newman
hb: grimes post deledio
c: conca cotchin morton
hf: houli griffiths king
ff: helbig vickery reiwoldt
foll: clarke martin foley
int: webberley astbury pick 1 mcguane(sub)

In: Z Clarke(freo), H McIntosh, Pick 1(midfielder)
Out: Thursfield, Moore, Miller, Hislop, White, Taylor, Farmer, Tuck, Hicks, Graham
Possible delistings for 2012: Edwards, Nason, Nahas, Jackson, Browne, Gourdis
I believe Post will do similar to what Rance has done this year. He's had very similar treatment this year to what Rance did last year

I take it by Pick 1 you mean our first pick?!

That's correct 

[tony_montana]

all the potential positives we may have had this yr are gone, forget it , we have no positives facts are we have not progressed at all, yeah we turned over players yet its done sweet FA

Where was this perspective last year during the constant Tambling debates? 

[the claw]

anyway the side id like to see most next yr does offer some hope for the future it goes.

B/  Dea - Rance - Grimes.
HB/ Moore - Astbury - Batchelor.

C/ Conca - Martin - Newman.
R/ Derickx - Deledio - Cotchin.

HF/ Helbig - Riewoldt - Pick 10.
F/ Vickery - Griffiths - Macdonald.

Int/ Tuck - Foley - Houli - Nahas/Grigg.


 

Don't disagree with some of your sentiments claw, but that is a shockingly unbalanced side. Top heavy at both ends, not enough ball users or run in the back half. No way are we going with Riewoldt, Vickery, Macdonald and Griffiths in the same forward line. We'd get absolutely slaughtered on the rebound. APart from needing a bigger bodied ruckman, we desperately need more transition pace. Hopefully pick 10 is bloody quick.

Doubt that Tuck will be there and if we get a McIntosh or similar, we have to give up something, so I'd say Foley or someone similar wouldn't be there either.

was reluctant to play moore down back as a running defender mainly because i think hes lost a bit of pace. im assuming his surgery will get him up and about and gain some pace.
one of his strengths imo was his pace.

tuck yep hes probably gone come yrs end but hes one id keep for the next few seasons despite his shortcomings while we find and then develop his replacements.

as for it being top heavy at both ends i disagree. the two most successful teams in recent times geelong and collingwood  structure up with plenty of talls at both ends. was harley scarlett taylor mackie down back in 09  too many talls.throw in the 100kg hunt as well or the likes of enright and corey.
was  mooney hawkins and rooke with ottens spending significant time forward to many talls. its what is around them and things like the  agility and pace of these blokes.

was  reid brown maxwell obrien goldsack too many last yr. sheesh forward collingwood play brown dawes and cloke.  down back last yr stkilda played blake dawson goddard fisher and gilbert in the back half. sides are relying on size and strength and their defensive systems more than ever rather than small light quick defenders. of course you cant play dinosaurs or poorly skilled players down there but none of batchelor astbury rance dea grimes and moore (post operations) are slouches when it comes to pace. what they all will give is size and strength some run combined with decent skills and accountability.what we need to develop is a defensive system for them to work to. i have always been an advocate of bigger stronger faster with skills.

at the end of the day some of those named wont make it but imo the majority tick a lot of boxes, more boxes than most of those not named.
remember also iim hoping for at least 6 to 8 up to standard afl players from the next two drafts and im hoping for some astute trades as well. thats another 10 or so players you can add to the 22 with many usurping players named.or to put it another way  a lot of those named will hopefully have their work cut out to keep their spots in the 22 to me they are the base or start. personally theres some i really hope we can upgrade on but for now they are the least of our worries.if we can build on them with another 10 players we may find we have some real depth for the first time in 30 yrs.