QANTAS worldwide shutdown

[Penelope]

It's funny isnt it?

If foreign workers come to our shores, it's "dey took er jubs!"

but if the jobs go offshore it's just "They just need to compete with their foreign competitors...Derr... which way did they go?... which way did they go?."

[FNM]

It's funny isnt it?

If foreign workers come to our shores, it's "dey took er jubs!"

but if the jobs go offshore it's just "They just need to compete with their foreign competitors...Derr... which way did they go?... which way did they go?."

[WilliamPowell]

I will probably get whacked and accused of supporting the QANTAS management

Firstly let me make it very clear the payrise given to the QANTAS CEO was WRONG WRONG and cannot be justified under any circumstances. That stupid decision has in fact increased the angst in this dispute

Also think what QANTAS mgmt did yesterday was heavy handed but certainly understand what they are trying to achieve, whether they achieve it in the end is the question

However, the engineers union are also wrong with their ambit claim. They want a pay increase with guaranteed job security without agreeing to any form of productivity gains. IMO they cannot have have both without offering some sort of improvment in productivity

My understanding is the majority of QANTAS maintenance is still done in Aust and in cases where a problem is detected during in general maintenance at the offshore site (IIRC its Malaysia) or another then QANTAS will send senior Aust engineers to oversea repairs (source = family friend who used to work for QANTAS as a senior engineer = means I have no reason to doubt them). Sadly this does not get reported by the union

I  read an article in the Australian a few weeks back that highlighted that other airlines (read Singapore, Emirates and Virgin) use 2-3 engineers on general maintenance on alot of their modern fleets (eg A380 Airbus & Boeing 767s) Where QANTAS can have up to 14 engineers under their current EBA douing the same general maintenance. The union want to maintain that status quo and argue safety concerns if this changes. I would argue Singapore Airlines is one of the safest most reliable airlines in the world so if those levels of productivity works for them can it not work for QANTAS?

IMHO there is fault on both sides and at the moment it appears that neither side is willing to compromise. Fairwork AUst can end this today - let's see if they have the courage to do it   

[tiger101]

I will probably get whacked and accused of supporting the QANTAS management

Firstly let me make it very clear the payrise given to the QANTAS CEO was WRONG WRONG and cannot be justified under any circumstances. That stupid decision has in fact increased the angst in this dispute

Also think what QANTAS mgmt did yesterday was heavy handed but certainly understand what they are trying to achieve, whether they achieve it in the end is the question

However, the engineers union are also wrong with their ambit claim. They want a pay increase with guaranteed job security without agreeing to any form of productivity gains. IMO they cannot have have both without offering some sort of improvment in productivity

My understanding is the majority of QANTAS maintenance is still done in Aust and in cases where a problem is detected during in general maintenance at the offshore site (IIRC its Malaysia) or another then QANTAS will send senior Aust engineers to oversea repairs (source = family friend who used to work for QANTAS as a senior engineer = means I have no reason to doubt them). Sadly this does not get reported by the union

I  read an article in the Australian a few weeks back that highlighted that other airlines (read Singapore, Emirates and Virgin) use 2-3 engineers on general maintenance on alot of their modern fleets (eg A380 Airbus & Boeing 767s) Where QANTAS can have up to 14 engineers under their current EBA douing the same general maintenance. The union want to maintain that status quo and argue safety concerns if this changes. I would argue Singapore Airlines is one of the safest most reliable airlines in the world so if those levels of productivity works for them can it not work for QANTAS?

IMHO there is fault on both sides and at the moment it appears that neither side is willing to compromise. Fairwork AUst can end this today - let's see if they have the courage to do it

100% agree.  No one ever wants to see job loses but some industries aren't sustainable as they use to be in this new global market.

[FNM]

I will probably get whacked and accused of supporting the QANTAS management

Firstly let me make it very clear the payrise given to the QANTAS CEO was WRONG WRONG and cannot be justified under any circumstances. That stupid decision has in fact increased the angst in this dispute

Also think what QANTAS mgmt did yesterday was heavy handed but certainly understand what they are trying to achieve, whether they achieve it in the end is the question

However, the engineers union are also wrong with their ambit claim. They want a pay increase with guaranteed job security without agreeing to any form of productivity gains. IMO they cannot have have both without offering some sort of improvment in productivity

My understanding is the majority of QANTAS maintenance is still done in Aust and in cases where a problem is detected during in general maintenance at the offshore site (IIRC its Malaysia) or another then QANTAS will send senior Aust engineers to oversea repairs (source = family friend who used to work for QANTAS as a senior engineer = means I have no reason to doubt them). Sadly this does not get reported by the union

I  read an article in the Australian a few weeks back that highlighted that other airlines (read Singapore, Emirates and Virgin) use 2-3 engineers on general maintenance on alot of their modern fleets (eg A380 Airbus & Boeing 767s) Where QANTAS can have up to 14 engineers under their current EBA douing the same general maintenance. The union want to maintain that status quo and argue safety concerns if this changes. I would argue Singapore Airlines is one of the safest most reliable airlines in the world so if those levels of productivity works for them can it not work for QANTAS?

IMHO there is fault on both sides and at the moment it appears that neither side is willing to compromise. Fairwork AUst can end this today - let's see if they have the courage to do it

100% agree.  No one ever wants to see job loses but some industries aren't sustainable as they use to be in this new global market.

Yep, stuff Australian jobs

[10 FLAGS]

I support Alan Joyce's action. The unions have way too much power in Australia its just shameful. Joyce has put forward a perfectly logical plan for the future but the unions will not accept that plan. Joyce should just shut down Qantas International all together since its losing money and just do Qantas domestically. Thousands of people will lose jobs but thats the unfortunate result of unions behaving in a simply deplorable and disgraceful manner.

[tiger101]

Yep, stuff Australian jobs

No one is saying that. What Qantas management is wanting to do is make a new Asian international subdivision so Qantas international can become sustainable for the long-term.
It's either that or in the long-term Qantas has to down size and even more job loses will occur. 
I can understand workers concerns but I can also see the view of Qantas management decision to make the company profitable over the long-term which is a positive for the shareholders(in a way the boards bosses).

[WilliamPowell]

Yep, stuff Australian jobs

FNM, I don't like seeing job losses and I am not saying "stuff Australian jobs".

What I am saying is that people & unions need need to be realistic. Jobs are in jeopardy the longer this fiasco goes on and it isn't just QANTAS jobs we are talking about BTW. 

You said it yourselves "In any wage and conditions claims, you go high and you negotiate downwards" but there has to be give & take on both sides. While you are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) QANTAS mgmt are refusing to do that I am of the belief the unions (especially the engineers) are refusing to do that as well. As I said both sides are to blame

I think everoyne wants to see a virbrant & strong QANTAS. But currently we don't have that for a number of reasons. No one should forget that while all the other big airlines in the developed world are losing money QANTAS has bucked that trend on the back of its domestic arm not it's international. 

End of the day I'd rather see a company in Aust that employees 30k+ people than one disappear completely.

[J Buckthorn]

Yep, stuff Australian jobs

No one is saying that. What Qantas management is wanting to do is make a new Asian international subdivision so Qantas international can become sustainable for the long-term.

No no no, youve got that point slightly arse-about.

What Qantas management is wanting to do is make the company sustainable so that Qantas management receive more +70% payrises.

And so, we continue to track down a path where the pricks get richer and the workers get bent over.

Welcome to extreme capitalism, 2011 style.

Where we are heading is a scary place.

[FNM]

Yep, stuff Australian jobs

FNM, I don't like seeing job losses and I am not saying "stuff Australian jobs".

What I am saying is that people & unions need need to be realistic. Jobs are in jeopardy the longer this fiasco goes on and it isn't just QANTAS jobs we are talking about BTW. 

You said it yourselves "In any wage and conditions claims, you go high and you negotiate downwards" but there has to be give & take on both sides. While you are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) QANTAS mgmt are refusing to do that I am of the belief the unions (especially the engineers) are refusing to do that as well. As I said both sides are to blame

I think everoyne wants to see a virbrant & strong QANTAS. But currently we don't have that for a number of reasons. No one should forget that while all the other big airlines in the developed world are losing money QANTAS has bucked that trend on the back of its domestic arm not it's international. 

End of the day I'd rather see a company in Aust that employees 30k+ people than one disappear completely.

There is no negotiation in do it my way or nothing.
That's what Qantas is saying - if the hearing is suspended, they'll still ground the planes
That's called blackmail

[WilliamPowell]

There is no negotiation in do it my way or nothing.
That's what Qantas is saying - if the hearing is suspended, they'll still ground the planes
That's called blackmail

No it's called calling the unions bluff    Dangerous move IMO but that's what it is

And what about the unions? Are you saying when they've sat down and said "you give us everything we want or we will continue to strike & disprupt services & BTW we are not willing to compromise on any of our claims" they've been negotitating on "good faith".

And I reckon there's been a fair bit of blackmail on both sides to be honest.... public's been held to ransom by the unions the last few months to be honest just like they are today by QANTAS

[10 FLAGS]

Joyce is a legend. He should be President of Richmond 

[FNM]

There is no negotiation in do it my way or nothing.
That's what Qantas is saying - if the hearing is suspended, they'll still ground the planes
That's called blackmail

No it's called calling the unions bluff    Dangerous move IMO but that's what it is

And what about the unions? Are you saying when they've sat down and said "you give us everything we want or we will continue to strike & disprupt services & BTW we are not willing to compromise on any of our claims" they've been negotitating on "good faith".

And I reckon there's been a fair bit of blackmail on both sides to be honest.... public's been held to ransom by the unions the last few months to be honest just like they are today by QANTAS

There's been bad moves by both sides - that's why they need to sit down and reach a binding agreement on all parties.

[FNM]

Joyce is a legend. He should be President of Richmond 

FO

[Penelope]

Since this dispute started I've read/heard a number of people claim that last time qantas purchased new aircraft, they purchased the wrong ones.

This means that on the the global scene they are competing with airlines that fly aircraft that carry more people for a lower cost.

Yet these people that made this decision reward themselves with pay rises and tell their workforce to accept having their jobs taken by lower paid paid foreign workers?

what was joyces payrise? $1.7M? How many australian based jobs does that equate to?

LMAO off at ramps thinking that the RFC treats the members with contempt but wants joyce running the show. You would soon learn what treating with contempt and feathering their own nest really meant.