Orren Stephenson [merged]

[the claw]

i still have to ask. where does this leave tom derickx ? and  what role is tom to have? is he a ruckman or not. surely by now and age 25 26 if ivan goies down derickx is capable of filling in. apparently not it seems.

if derickx at age 25 is not going to be the back up ruckman to ivan why did we keep him.
they cant have much faith in his abilty to ruck if they had to go out and get a 30 yr old ruckman.

we wont be playing both ivan and orren on game day.  im under the impression that vickery is to be our future ruckman,  and is the current ruck/for.  i still cant work out, if this is the case, why we play him at chf.

i still ask what role is vickery to play ? chf or ruck/for.is he to be our future #1 ruckman ?who knows there doesnt seem to be any logic in this area.

dont mean to do it but i still think a list of
maric #1 ruckman
martin #2 ruck /  forward who is capable of doing ivans job if he goes down injured. this bloke would have put heaps of pressure on vickery to perform.
hannath a ready to go 21 yr old GENUINE ruckman who is a better option than derickx .i reckon he could fill in for ivan if need be.unlike orren he has huge upside and a long future.
derickx  He would have one more yr to show something. and if he does show something he provides real depth and competition.
mcbean a very long term ruck option. who would have plenty of time to develop in the magoos. i still think hes a future  kpd.

mcbean is at least 3 yrs away from playing ruck in the afl. thats probably optimistic.that is if he ever becomes a ruckman.

just seems to me theres a lot of bets being hedged in this area and little proper planning for the long term. it really does seem we are doing the bare minimum here.
one thing for sure there are a lot things that need answering.

any way welcome aboard orren im sure you will give it everything you have.  that has to be better than anything graham ever gave us.

[Danog]

dont mean to do it but..

Bull.

[tony_montana]

i still have to ask. where does this leave tom derickx ? and  what role is tom to have? is he a ruckman or not. surely by now and age 25 26 if ivan goies down derickx is capable of filling in. apparently not it seems.

if derickx at age 25 is not going to be the back up ruckman to ivan why did we keep him.
they cant have much faith in his abilty to ruck if they had to go out and get a 30 yr old ruckman.

we wont be playing both ivan and orren on game day.  im under the impression that vickery is to be our future ruckman,  and is the current ruck/for.  i still cant work out, if this is the case, why we play him at chf.

i still ask what role is vickery to play ? chf or ruck/for.is he to be our future #1 ruckman ?who knows there doesnt seem to be any logic in this area.

dont mean to do it but i still think a list of
maric #1 ruckman
martin #2 ruck /  forward who is capable of doing ivans job if he goes down injured. this bloke would have put heaps of pressure on vickery to perform.
hannath a ready to go 21 yr old GENUINE ruckman who is a better option than derickx .i reckon he could fill in for ivan if need be.unlike orren he has huge upside and a long future.
derickx  He would have one more yr to show something. and if he does show something he provides real depth and competition.
mcbean a very long term ruck option. who would have plenty of time to develop in the magoos. i still think hes a future  kpd.

mcbean is at least 3 yrs away from playing ruck in the afl. thats probably optimistic.that is if he ever becomes a ruckman.

just seems to me theres a lot of bets being hedged in this area and little proper planning for the long term. it really does seem we are doing the bare minimum here.
one thing for sure there are a lot things that need answering.

any way welcome aboard orren im sure you will give it everything you have.  that has to be better than anything graham ever gave us.

Ivan is our number 1 and Vickery is to be a 2nd or 3rd tall that can give Ivan a chop out 5-10 mins a qtr. Long term who knows if Vickery is the number 1, I guess we see how he develops over the next few years in that area. Nothing wrong with that approach  as you dont want to throw him to the wolves too early when hes not physically ready. Its a bonus that he's mobile enough to play as a bonafide fwd.

You would think Xman is next in line, its his last chance this season, if he doesnt stand up he'll get the chop. Big O is surely just insurance incase Xman cant stand the heat. Should have gone another 23-25 y/o as insurance imo, if Xman gets the arse end of the year and Big O cant go on, we are once again very thin in the ruck stocks and will need to replace them both.

[the claw]

i still have to ask. where does this leave tom derickx ? and  what role is tom to have? is he a ruckman or not. surely by now and age 25 26 if ivan goies down derickx is capable of filling in. apparently not it seems.

if derickx at age 25 is not going to be the back up ruckman to ivan why did we keep him.
they cant have much faith in his abilty to ruck if they had to go out and get a 30 yr old ruckman.

we wont be playing both ivan and orren on game day.  im under the impression that vickery is to be our future ruckman,  and is the current ruck/for.  i still cant work out, if this is the case, why we play him at chf.

i still ask what role is vickery to play ? chf or ruck/for.is he to be our future #1 ruckman ?who knows there doesnt seem to be any logic in this area.

dont mean to do it but i still think a list of
maric #1 ruckman
martin #2 ruck /  forward who is capable of doing ivans job if he goes down injured. this bloke would have put heaps of pressure on vickery to perform.
hannath a ready to go 21 yr old GENUINE ruckman who is a better option than derickx .i reckon he could fill in for ivan if need be.unlike orren he has huge upside and a long future.
derickx  He would have one more yr to show something. and if he does show something he provides real depth and competition.
mcbean a very long term ruck option. who would have plenty of time to develop in the magoos. i still think hes a future  kpd.

mcbean is at least 3 yrs away from playing ruck in the afl. thats probably optimistic.that is if he ever becomes a ruckman.

just seems to me theres a lot of bets being hedged in this area and little proper planning for the long term. it really does seem we are doing the bare minimum here.
one thing for sure there are a lot things that need answering.

any way welcome aboard orren im sure you will give it everything you have.  that has to be better than anything graham ever gave us.

Ivan is our number 1 and Vickery is to be a 2nd or 3rd tall that can give Ivan a chop out 5-10 mins a qtr. Long term who knows if Vickery is the number 1, I guess we see how he develops over the next few years in that area. Nothing wrong with that approach  as you dont want to throw him to the wolves too early when hes not physically ready. Its a bonus that he's mobile enough to play as a bonafide fwd.

You would think Xman is next in line, its his last chance this season, if he doesnt stand up he'll get the chop. Big O is surely just insurance incase Xman cant stand the heat. Should have gone another 23-25 y/o as insurance imo, if Xman gets the arse end of the year and Big O cant go on, we are once again very thin in the ruck stocks and will need to replace them both.

agreed its pretty much what i said.
one question.
if vickery is to be our#1 ruckman in a couple of yrs id say he must start assuming more and more of the ruck duties. if a game goes 120 minutes he needs to ruck at least 10 minutes a quarter.
what should his forward role be certainly not chf ffs. he needs to play out of a pocket and be a long marking target when forward.
if im critical of hardwick it is the way we constantly structure up.
while on vickery hes entering yr 5 would you not think they would have a decent idea by now of where he will play.they cant be sure he will end up a #1 ruckman would it not be prudent to assume the worst after 4 yrs and target another around his age to take over from ivan. seems not.

im critical of list management because as you say if and they are not big ifs derickx fails and orren goes for a yr or two the already suspect ruck stocks are back in the poo. if vickery doesnt make it as a ruckman and i have seen absolutely nothing to suggest he will be a bona fide #1 ruckman then it becomes dire indeed. yet we seem to be doing the bare minimum in this area.
they talk up mcbean as the future he may be 15feet tall but hes as heavy as some smalls. it will take a lot of time to get him even physically to afl standard to play ruck.
i dunno it just seems we are going about our rucks in the wrong way again.

[Penelope]

But you said that when we recruited maric

[Gigantor]

other than one or two extraordinary exceptions (natanui) most ruckmen dont hit their peak until post 25..Our ruck stocks at moment are excellent.
there is no need to panic nor rush Ty

[the claw]

But you said that when we recruited maric

did i when we recruited ivan what 15 months ago exactly what did i say. being such a long time ago perhaps you can refresh our memories.or better still conjure up a post or two.

i know i was certainly against useing pick 35 to get himas i value highly 2nd rnd picks. i certainly wasnt against us getting him though.
our ruck stocks in 2011 included
browne, derickx,graham, and vickery pretty dire if you ask me.

i have to ask out side of having 27 yr old maric what has really changed

mcbean for browne who is at least 3 or 4 yrs away from playing ruck if at all. there was a question about this kid being a ruckman when we took him.browne actually looked a more likely ruckman.
we have replaced graham with stephenson a stop gap if ever there was one. so next yr or the yr after  we are looking for his replacement. it never ends constantly looking for ruckmen.

dericks is still there and done nothing still. based on what hes done to date his age where we have played him not in the ruck,  and the fact we got orren stephenson i dont like his chances of making it do you.

the same questions about vickery are being asked. and we continue to hedge our bets in how we play him.he certainly is not capable of holding down the #1 ruck spot.we play him at chf and expect him to be a second ruck what a joke.

yep if not for ivan the ruck stocks would be diabolical. what has really changed.

[RedanTiger]

The biggest IF for next season is whether there is any problem with Ivan.
He had a groin injury that he played with last year and it has been treated with rest and rehabilitation to repair the damage.
Consider McGuane carried a groin injury for three years which slowly got worse until he required surgery last off season.

Consider that if Ivan goes down in the first month what our ruck options look like.

[Penelope]

But you said that when we recruited maric

did i when we recruited ivan what 15 months ago exactly what did i say. being such a long time ago perhaps you can refresh our memories.or better still conjure up a post or two.

for some reason the search function on Big Footy wont bring up your posts in the thread about ivan being recruited, but heres one.

cmon doris maric is very much a now trade. he may be an improvement but surely hes not the long term.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ivan-maric-shaping-up-as-richmonds-hard-man.893009/#post-22906566


and an admission that you critised him

ive criticised ivaan maric a fair bit

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/nab-cup-rd-1-v-hawthorn-v-north-melbourne-feb-17th-etihad-stadium-6-45pm.901824/page-11#post-23385686
as with all your posts, you critised the club for his recruitment, and isnt that saying

i dunno it just seems we are going about our rucks in the wrong way again.

even if your only critisim was we should not have given up pick 35 for him? ( which was not your only critisim of him, you were of the belief that what he had shown so far was pretty much what you would get in the future.)

The funny thing is that you somehow conjure up the notion that getting stephenson as a rookie means the that the club thinks derrickx will not make it, yet have you not called for more rucks to be on the list?

[Yeahright]

agreed its pretty much what i said.
one question.
if vickery is to be our#1 ruckman in a couple of yrs id say he must start assuming more and more of the ruck duties. if a game goes 120 minutes he needs to ruck at least 10 minutes a quarter.
what should his forward role be certainly not chf ffs. he needs to play out of a pocket and be a long marking target when forward.
if im critical of hardwick it is the way we constantly structure up.
while on vickery hes entering yr 5 would you not think they would have a decent idea by now of where he will play.they cant be sure he will end up a #1 ruckman would it not be prudent to assume the worst after 4 yrs and target another around his age to take over from ivan. seems not.

im critical of list management because as you say if and they are not big ifs derickx fails and orren goes for a yr or two the already suspect ruck stocks are back in the poo. if vickery doesnt make it as a ruckman and i have seen absolutely nothing to suggest he will be a bona fide #1 ruckman then it becomes dire indeed. yet we seem to be doing the bare minimum in this area.
they talk up mcbean as the future he may be 15feet tall but hes as heavy as some smalls. it will take a lot of time to get him even physically to afl standard to play ruck.
i dunno it just seems we are going about our rucks in the wrong way again.
[/quote]

Vickery usually does play out of the pocket when we play 3 talls, only time I've seen him play CHF is when we only had two talls. And how can you say you've seen nothing to suggest Vickery can play ruck when he has gone to ruck and performed really well but then say Hannath is a garentee to be a walk up start #1 ruck when he never even played a game of AFL?

[Chuck17]

But you said that when we recruited maric

did i when we recruited ivan what 15 months ago exactly what did i say. being such a long time ago perhaps you can refresh our memories.or better still conjure up a post or two.

for some reason the search function on Big Footy wont bring up your posts in the thread about ivan being recruited, but heres one.

cmon doris maric is very much a now trade. he may be an improvement but surely hes not the long term.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ivan-maric-shaping-up-as-richmonds-hard-man.893009/#post-22906566


and an admission that you critised him

ive criticised ivaan maric a fair bit

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/nab-cup-rd-1-v-hawthorn-v-north-melbourne-feb-17th-etihad-stadium-6-45pm.901824/page-11#post-23385686
as with all your posts, you critised the club for his recruitment, and isnt that saying

i dunno it just seems we are going about our rucks in the wrong way again.

even if your only critisim was we should not have given up pick 35 for him? ( which was not your only critisim of him, you were of the belief that what he had shown so far was pretty much what you would get in the future.)

The funny thing is that you somehow conjure up the notion that getting stephenson as a rookie means the that the club thinks derrickx will not make it, yet have you not called for more rucks to be on the list?

LOL are Claw and Jackstar the same person

[the claw]

But you said that when we recruited maric

did i when we recruited ivan what 15 months ago exactly what did i say. being such a long time ago perhaps you can refresh our memories.or better still conjure up a post or two.

for some reason the search function on Big Footy wont bring up your posts in the thread about ivan being recruited, but heres one.

1/ cmon doris maric is very much a now trade. he may be an improvement but surely hes not the long term.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ivan-maric-shaping-up-as-richmonds-hard-man.893009/#post-22906566


2/ and an admission that you critised him

ive criticised ivaan maric a fair bit

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/nab-cup-rd-1-v-hawthorn-v-north-melbourne-feb-17th-etihad-stadium-6-45pm.901824/page-11#post-23385686
3/ as with all your posts, you critised the club for his recruitment, and isnt that saying

i dunno it just seems we are going about our rucks in the wrong way again.

even if your only critisim was we should not have given up pick 35 for him? ( which was not your only critisim of him, you were of the belief that what he had shown so far was pretty much what you would get in the future.)

4/ The funny thing is that you somehow conjure up the notion that getting stephenson as a rookie means the that the club thinks derrickx will not make it, yet have you not called for more rucks to be on the list?

oh deary me you really are grasping at straws. ive taken the liberty to number each point.

 1/ the major criticism i had of us taking maric was pick 35.  it goes without saying based on what he had done to that point i didnt think him worth pick 35.of course there was criticisms of him what did you expect.

i will say again i wasnt against getting him or any other mature ruckman,  but where we got him.  reckon i argued long and hard the need for both experienced and junior ruckmen. scott lycett is one i lamented. i wanted us to take sam jacobs in 09 when he was just put on carltons rookie list. go look on pre you will find that in their search engine somewhere.
geez i even think i got it wrong on just what ivan could bring to the table, which i have previously acknowledged, but hey how many would have predicted the yr he had based on his previous 7 seasons.they were average at best.
 after 7 yrs and age 26 of course i doubted he could improve. not a lot of players dramatically improve after that amount of time.
based on his age and form i certainly did not see him as a long term prospect either. pretty reasonable argument at the time i reckon.
ya know  its pretty easy and gutless to willy nilly bring up singular posts with out the due context.

2/ yep i criticised ivan. why wouldnt i?  he was no world beater until last yr. reckon there were a fair few others who criticised his adelaide yrs.   but we  cant be criticising our players or future recruits now can we. you think ivans 7yrs before he came to us perfect.unbelievable.

3/ wrong again i criticised the club for useing pick 35 and as i have stated i have basically admited they got it right and ivan has been a steal i have strongly voiced the opinion that we need ivans long term replacement and a mature player in case he gets hurt. i dont proclaim to get all things right.out side of ivan i reckon they deserve a lot of criticism in this area.

4/ nothing funny about it at all. just a bit of logic. if the club were confident derickx could fill in if maric got hurt why in hell go out and get a 31 yr old surely a 21 24 yo would have been the go.id say they have their doubts and they should. at age 25 what has he done to date. andrw browne and graham have done more and we cut em. of course ive called for more rucks ive called for them just about every yr for many yrs. thats because in the main we dont ever do enough. i even think orren is a now a must after the way we went about it. do i think we shoulkd have done it different you bet ya.
ive already suggested maric martin hannath derickx and mcbean id even be looking to rookie another cameron  symonds is one ive mentioned. instead of maric stephenson derickx and mcbean.
i dont think mcbean a ruckman and as such next yr would definately be looking to take another kid  somewhere at the very least.

if you have no doubts about tom  great and good for you.  thats what we have always done in this area sort of hope instead of making sure theres someone else in the system just in case.
how many young ruckmen have we bought thru at richmond in the last 10 or 15 yrs.

i know lets not have any criticism at all lets all put our collective heads up our arses and pretend we are the best.

ffs jacksons had 8 yrs and cameron 6 and we are yet to make the 8 under them its as if they should be immune from criticism. i know for sure we can do better than these two. their records are not good.
its funny these two have had so long and are almost immune yet hardwick has had 3 yrs and is in the gun according to most i listen to.

i stand by every thing you have bought up and i have acknowledged i got it wrong on maric a fair while ago. i firmly believe ivans replacement should be in our system right now im asking is he i dont think so.
you know what if exactly the same scenario arose again and we were to give up a second rnd pick for a 7 yr player who had struggled and was regularly overtaken by other players id damn well be criticising them again.

from here on in im going to be bringing up old posts so watch what you say and make sure you are clear on your context. its a pain in the arse continually having to defend your point of view which is consistent.
as i said your grasping at straws as usual.

[Smokey]

i firmly believe ivans replacement should be in our system right now im asking is he i dont think so.

He's in the system already, just most likely not ours yet.  No need for us to spend the time and take the risk in developing him until our window is truly open and we can shop for someone who will fill the bill perfectly.  Would rather us be developing/trialling as many mids and KPP's as we can until we have the ability and depth to win a flag, then go shopping for a ruckman to top it all off.

[Penelope]

jeezus perhaps we should wait for the movie.

lets try and be concise shall we

1:how do you get that i am confident derrickx will make it out of that?

2: was not your critism of the recruitment of maric a critism of the process ( which was my original point)?

3 If you acknowledged you got it wrong and maric why did you challenge me to find posts where you critised him.

4 why is it gutless to find posts like you asked me to. i posted the link to the whole post so the context of the post could be seen?

5 did you or did you not question the process when we got maric ( which is what my original point was?)

6 do you understand what my original point was?

7 Have you posted that we don't have enough rucks on the list, because if you have it makes no sense to then say that because we picked up stephenson it must mean we have no faith in derrickx (which is pretty illogical in itself)? we either had enough rucks or we didn't, which is it?

all but two are yes/no answers. please stay on topic with your answers.

yours sincerely,
Mr Gutless

[dwaino]

Forget it, al. You can't argue with anyone that uses circular reasoning to labour (and I stress the word labour) their own subjective opinion.