Author Topic: Non-Richmond Games 2013  (Read 63555 times)

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #480 on: June 10, 2013, 09:19:51 AM »
fair enough rolls. some people want every tackle "rewarded" even if the player has had no opportunity to get rid of it. If they have no prior and they attempt to dispose of it i don't have a problem with play on. for a while there we were seeing that the tackler was nearly always rewarded and that leads to players waiting to tackle rather than hunting ball, which poos me no end.

It really is a simple concept and sometimes the umpires will get it wrong as it is open to individual interpetation, but it seems to swing one way then the other, which must be down to how the umpires are instructed to interpret it.

Why cant these idiots just leave things alone rather constantly tinkering?
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #481 on: June 10, 2013, 09:40:53 AM »
when you talk about rewarding a good tackle are you referring to when the player has had a chance to get rid of the ball or just doesnt even attempt to dispose of it properly, or do you believe that the play maker should be penalised, even if he is tackled as soon as he takes possession?

I believe if the player with the ball has had prior opportunity to get rid of it (ie/ has taken a few steps, has taken on the tackler etc.) and is brought down fairly (ie/ not scragged,  or ridden into the ground) then he should be penalised for holding the ball. Similarly, if he throws, or drops the ball when tackled he should be pinged for incorrect disposal. The umpires haven't been doing this for weeks, and it's really beginning to drive me up the wall.

Agree 100% RR.  Prior opportunity to me is the most simple of concepts and easy to adjudicate but it seems light years beyond the capacity of Gieschen and his merry men to get right consistently.  Prior opportunity is when, after taking clean possession, you have taken a couple of steps, or have pirouetted a circle, or have tried to fend off a tackle and in almost every case it's quite clear if you've had that opportunity - there is no split-second decision needed by the umpire as they have had the time to assess prior opportunity in the play.  But time and again we see play-on called only to suddenly pull out a single prior opportunity free after having let 10 go beforehand.  Frustrating beyond comprehension.

And last night there was a critical moment where 2 umpiring mistakes in the same action helped West Coast to a win.  Matt Priddis (who must have been training with the Selwoods all summer) took possession at CHF, ran a couple of steps away with the ball, tried to fend off the tackle, got tackled so then immediately pitched himself forward to the ground holding the tacklers arm as he went down.  Free was paid in the back, Priddis goaled and West Coast hit the front.  The correct decision should have been holding the ball but even not paying that, the umpire should have been able to work out that Priddis caused the tackle to pitch forward and down, not the Saints tackler.  It was bloody obvious first time in normal speed, without needing to slow it down and be wise in hindsight.  How much do these drop kicks get paid per game again?

Memo to Demetriou, Evans, Gieschen and the M&Ms:
If you truly want the game to flow and eradicate stoppages then try the novel concept of paying free kicks when they're there.  Yep, it will mean more frees paid but guess what that will do?  It will get the ball moving away from the pack and produce more individual contests around the ground.  Instead of sitting on the outside of the ever increasing and ugly pack forming flapping your arms and calling play on, how about paying prior opportunity correctly - you would be amazed at how many packs it will prevent from forming in the first place.

Offline RollsRoyce

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 1296
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #482 on: June 10, 2013, 09:42:32 AM »
Hey Al, speaking of no prior opportunity to get rid of it:
I remember a Richmond vs Coll game several years ago when Aaron Fiora leapt up to intercept a handball, and the split-second his feet touched the ground he was mown down by Leon Davis. Aside from the fact that Fiora had absolutely no opportunity to dispose of the ball, Davis didn't even tackle him properly, riding him face down into the ground all over his back. The result? You guessed it. Holding the ball. Goal to Collingwood. I did one of my trademark leaping out of my seat, shaking my fists and swearing rants, which was highlighted and mocked by that little smart-arse eunuch Dave Hughes on "Before The Game".
Anyway, point of story is, no, I'm not one of those people who wants every tackle paid, whether there's prior opportunity or not. Similarly, I've never been a big fan of penalising the poor bloke caught on the bottom of the pack who was the only one with the guts to make the play in the first place. But, the rule is the rule, so I've just had to learn to accept it. 

Offline RollsRoyce

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 1296
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #483 on: June 10, 2013, 09:55:24 AM »

Agree 100% RR.  Prior opportunity to me is the most simple of concepts and easy to adjudicate but it seems light years beyond the capacity of Gieschen and his merry men to get right consistently.  Prior opportunity is when, after taking clean possession, you have taken a couple of steps, or have pirouetted a circle, or have tried to fend off a tackle and in almost every case it's quite clear if you've had that opportunity - there is no split-second decision needed by the umpire as they have had the time to assess prior opportunity in the play.  But time and again we see play-on called only to suddenly pull out a single prior opportunity free after having let 10 go beforehand.  Frustrating beyond comprehension.

And last night there was a critical moment where 2 umpiring mistakes in the same action helped West Coast to a win.  Matt Priddis (who must have been training with the Selwoods all summer) took possession at CHF, ran a couple of steps away with the ball, tried to fend off the tackle, got tackled so then immediately pitched himself forward to the ground holding the tacklers arm as he went down.  Free was paid in the back, Priddis goaled and West Coast hit the front.  The correct decision should have been holding the ball but even not paying that, the umpire should have been able to work out that Priddis caused the tackle to pitch forward and down, not the Saints tackler.  It was bloody obvious first time in normal speed, without needing to slow it down and be wise in hindsight.  How much do these drop kicks get paid per game again?


Yep. The umpiring last night was a disgrace. It was so obvious that they had an agenda to get West Coast up. The inconsistency and bias against St. Kilda was just staggering. So much for the notion that the umpires were going to clamp down on stagers like the Smellwood's and Priddis. And the umpire's inability to do their frigging job properly will have us out of the 8 when Collingwood wins today.

Gigantor

  • Guest
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #484 on: June 10, 2013, 10:14:11 AM »
I have to say this season has been the worst display of umpiring I have ever seen.

Rampstar

  • Guest
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #485 on: June 10, 2013, 10:58:00 AM »
Saints got rooted by the umps last night IMHO.

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #486 on: June 10, 2013, 12:06:32 PM »
Hey Al, speaking of no prior opportunity to get rid of it:
I remember a Richmond vs Coll game several years ago when Aaron Fiora leapt up to intercept a handball, and the split-second his feet touched the ground he was mown down by Leon Davis. Aside from the fact that Fiora had absolutely no opportunity to dispose of the ball, Davis didn't even tackle him properly, riding him face down into the ground all over his back. The result? You guessed it. Holding the ball. Goal to Collingwood. I did one of my trademark leaping out of my seat, shaking my fists and swearing rants, which was highlighted and mocked by that little smart-arse eunuch Dave Hughes on "Before The Game".
Anyway, point of story is, no, I'm not one of those people who wants every tackle paid, whether there's prior opportunity or not. Similarly, I've never been a big fan of penalising the poor bloke caught on the bottom of the pack who was the only one with the guts to make the play in the first place. But, the rule is the rule, so I've just had to learn to accept it.
the worst one i can recall was a couple of years ago when mcguane was being held by the arm BEFORE he took possession, was spun around in a chicken wing tackle as he tried to kick it and was penalised. I think the result from that was a goal too, as well me going ape droppings
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Coach

  • Hardly A Prude
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 8719
  • Depend on Schulzy
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #487 on: June 10, 2013, 02:54:52 PM »
Rolls, your dummy spits at the games are classic. My favourite was when you were throwing the middle finger around :lol

Offline mightytiges

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 58580
  • Eat 'Em Alive!
    • oneeyed-richmond.com
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #488 on: June 10, 2013, 03:53:17 PM »
The Dees are actually being competitive :o. Only one point down at 1/4 time.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline mightytiges

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 58580
  • Eat 'Em Alive!
    • oneeyed-richmond.com
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #489 on: June 10, 2013, 04:23:59 PM »
Normal transmission for Melbourne has resumed. One goal in a half of footy and down by 40 points.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline Chuck17

  • The Shaun Grugg of OER
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13274
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #490 on: June 10, 2013, 04:24:48 PM »
Normal transmission for Melbourne has resumed. One goal in a half of footy and down by 40 points.

 ;D

Offline tigs2011

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 5517
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #491 on: June 11, 2013, 12:44:16 AM »
MT went early with the competitive call. That was about as insipid as it gets.  :lol

Saints got rooted by the umps last night IMHO.

Didn't watch the game but Saints fans are the Victorian version of the Eagles. Pack of sooks. Serves them right. Umps trolling them hard.  :shh

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #492 on: June 11, 2013, 09:27:41 AM »

Memo to Demetriou, Evans, Gieschen and the M&Ms:
If you truly want the game to flow and eradicate stoppages then try the novel concept of paying free kicks when they're there.  Yep, it will mean more frees paid but guess what that will do?  It will get the ball moving away from the pack and produce more individual contests around the ground.  Instead of sitting on the outside of the ever increasing and ugly pack forming flapping your arms and calling play on, how about paying prior opportunity correctly - you would be amazed at how many packs it will prevent from forming in the first place.

Appears I'm not alone in my thinking:

You've got a whistle, blow the b$%@&! thing

Charles Happell
Written on Monday, 10 June 2013 20:03

It's difficult to take the negative side in a footy debate when, appearing for the affirmative on the other team, are the rather prominent voices of James Hird, Mick Malthouse and Nathan Buckley - coaches of Victoria's three biggest AFL clubs.

All three said they loved the way Friday night's Carltion-Essendon match was umpired. They loved it because the umps put the whistle away and let the players slug it out and do their thing. They had ''let the game go''.

Hird, basking in the glow of the Bombers' flukey win, said: "I felt the game was umpired really fairly and the obvious ones were given. That's how we want the game umpired."

Malthouse's moustache stopped bristling long enough for him to add: "They umpired a terrific game of football and I will take the punt that I won't get fined in saying that the quality of umpiring today was outstanding given the surface and it allowed the game to be played with two good football sides going at each other."

Well, as the first speaker for the negative, I was at the game and I say that assertion is absolute baloney.

Countless free kicks weren't paid that should have been paid - and would have been paid even at the start of this season. It was a free-for-all and, don't be deceived by the close result, an eyesore, the contest largely devoid of any individual highlights.

The umpires on Friday night blew their whistle only 17 times to pay a free kick. Seventeen times in game that went for 110 minutes - at the rate of one free every 6.5 minutes. Seventeen times in a game where the contest was fierce, where bodies were thrown into contested situations and where backmen were often holding on to forwards off the ball.

Only once was a player deemed to have illegally disposed of the ball.

Yet the free-kick average per game at the start of the season hovered around the mid-40s. So what gives? If umps boss, Jeff Gieschen, wasn't on a six-week mid-season holiday, perhaps we could ask him.

Two Carlton forwards were, from my neutral position, pushed square in the back in the frenetic final few minutes - Jarrad Waite was one of them - but the umps kept their whistles steadfastly by their sides. And, reinforcing the theory that they're happy to pay frees in the middle of the ground (occasionally) but rarely in front of goal, then they paid a soft one to Paddy Ryder at a boundary throw-in.

There's a voluminous book of rules relating to the indigenous game, yet the umpires either off their own bat, or because they're instructed to, choose to penalise players who break these rules only in the most egregious cases. The rules are now applied selectively, so an 80% infringement might attract a penalty but a 60% one might be called play on. 

And fewer free kicks only cultivates that blight on the modern game: scrimmages, stoppages, packs and stacks on the mill. Over 10 years until 2008, the average number of field bounces in season deciders was 27; in the past four years, it has risen to 47. In 2012, there were 51. It's ugly and, with fewer free kicks being paid, it's only getting uglier.

And it here that I introduce the second speaker for the affirmative, Mr Tim Lane, who wrote a piece in the Sunday Age last October which ought to be required reading for Gieschen, his umpires and all on the Rules Committee.

''In the 1970 Grand Final, (sole field umpire) Don Jolley paid 90 free kicks (which may include frees for out of bounds on the full). In this year's grand final, 31 free kicks (not including ''out on the full'') were awarded in a game with indubitably more tackling than was the case 42 years ago. In the 1996 grand final, 19 free kicks - about one every six minutes - were awarded. Does anyone seriously believe the same standard of player protection was brought to that game as to the classic of 26 years earlier?

''Apologists for today's relentless defensive, stoppage-oriented football argue that, in the past, too many inconsequential free kicks were paid. But Jolley and his peers did not just protect the ball player, they protected - and preserved - a particular form of the game.

''Yet still the AFL football brains trust refuses to acknowledge liberal umpiring as a reason for the escalating problem of pack formation.''

And, finally I call on Mr Pat Smith, from The Australian, as third speaker for the negative. Smith wrote a column in today's paper headlined: ''You can throw out rulebook ... the umpires have'' in which he, too, expressed dismay at the paltry number of frees paid on Friday night.

''What the umpires are doing now is relaxing the interpretation of every rule. We are playing a different game in round 11 than we did in round one. That is so damning of the football department at the AFL and the autonomy of the umpiring arm of the league,'' Smith wrote.

''Paying only blatant and eye-boggling breaches of the rules is unsustainable. There is no standard to judge the rules by if they are not to be strictly adhered to. A push-in-the-back free should not be determined by the force but by the action itself. Free-wheeling interpretation will soon lead to confusion that will erode the umpires' credibility and authority.

''All of this means the AFL no longer has rules for its football game, merely broad outlines from which the umpires will adjudicate our game. Chaos is just a whistle - or rather lack of one - away.

''So from all of this we can correctly deduce that the umpiring in the early rounds of the season was poor and now it is good. And we can also presume the rule that, say, does not allow a player to push his opponent in the back is, in fact, just an ambit claim.''

So with that, we rest our case. Doubtless we'll get drowned out by the mindless chorus of ''just let the game go'', but unless something is done to rein in this dire trend then expect chaos, and ugliness, to ensue.

http://www.backpagelead.com.au/afl/9714-youve-got-a-whistle-blow-the-ba-thing

gerkin greg

  • Guest
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #493 on: June 11, 2013, 12:09:52 PM »
reckon the umpiring in the last fortnight has been the best it has been in a long time

having said that it's the first time in a long time i've watched footy sober...

normal service resuming this weekend  :thumbsup

Offline tigs2011

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 5517
Re: Non-Richmond Games 2013
« Reply #494 on: June 11, 2013, 12:49:24 PM »
reckon the umpiring in the last fortnight has been the best it has been in a long time

having said that it's the first time in a long time i've watched footy sober...

normal service resuming this weekend  :thumbsup
:lol