Author Topic: What I learnt today  (Read 3216 times)

Offline RollsRoyce

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2013, 10:40:10 AM »

Why not defend with everyone in our 50?

parking the bus - very much a wogball term

Do you mean everyone in our defensive 50? If so, then yeah, why not? That is essentially what they are doing to us. Sure, it leads to an ugly game, but they started it, and we should at least give them a taste of their own medicine. As I have alluded to, as much as I hate watching us spend an entire game trying vainly to squeeze a fart through the congestion the opposition creates, it's the fact that they then continually waltz into an open goal on the rebound coz our guys are too lazy to follow them back out, which annoys me more than anything about these types of games.

Offline Muscles

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2013, 11:22:28 AM »
Made the annual trip south to the game yesterday.  Had lousy seats.

We had too many mids who couldn't run with the Roos on the day.  Cotch, Axel, Dusty and Flossy were struggling to keep up on the break from the contests.  The Roo's mids would just run away from them, time and time again.

I wondered where we were in the training cycle?  Either we have too many mids in rehab, or we've been working extra hard on the training track following the bye.  Either way, it looked like we didn't have enough gas in the tank.

That, coupled with team selection, where the Roo talls had us outpointed both forward and back, meant we got done like a dinner.

the claw

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2013, 11:57:14 AM »
what did we learn today?
nothing we didnt already know.

we have serious depth issues  in all areas.especially with talls.  which means we are structurally poor. our talls are either not good enough or they have not developed as we wish to date.

we have serious problems in the ruck and it comes back to depth and development. bloody hell orren stephenson why did we take him at all you dont replace battlers with battlers.

if people continue to think we have good enough kpds then they have rocks in their head.

im sorry people just one good key forward wont cut the mustard against the better sides trouble is who is there to bring in and help.to top it off they do little to help themselves by playing at coburg nearly every young tall forward we have in defense.

we have no classy small medium forwards. not one to a man they are all battlers. surely mcdonough can be given a game.

the bottom 6 or 8 in the actual 22 will always struggle against the better sides not because they dont try or havent played some decent footy at times. its  because they have too many deficiencies and it always comes back and bites em when the game goes up a notch.

 we have too many who play bruise free footy either because thats the way they are or that is the game plan or a bit of both.

in some ways we have got it wrong built a midfield first and now we wait for the talls to hopefully catch up. the mids enable us to be competetive and beat up on poor sides our structure talls and depth prevents us from actually taking the next step.

what we knew already was
1/ we need to find a good kpf to go with riewoldt.vickery is not the answer not if hes going to spend significant time on the ball.
2/ we need to find a bloody good  full back. this is a bigger issue than most tiger fans wish to admit.
3/ we need to find another ruckman or two.
4/ we need to find a couple of classy sml/med forwards
5/ we need a bloody good big bodied  inside mid
6/ we need much better outside mids who are quick and use the ball really well. cant emphasise this enough i dont we are slow but ithink we have some pace issues on the outside.

these were some of  the weaknesses last yr. they were the same weaknesses at the start of this yr,  and they are the very same weaknesses we have now.
it seems a lot but a lot of it can be fixed quickly some of it will take time unless we go after mature f/as.

we have very few atm who can come in to the side and improve us im not sure what young arnot did wrong to get dropped, people want to see the back of dea i disagree i still think we are at a stage where getting games into the younger players is important.
finals would be great but they were never the be all end all this yr they were an aim with development the most important issue.  because we have beaten up on weak sides i think they finals  have become the be all end all and its come at the expense of development a little bit imo.

imo we should at the very least be playing with a structure that will stand up in big pressure games and if that means we have to fast track a few kids so be it.
our current set up will mean more hidings against good sides.


Offline RollsRoyce

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2013, 01:10:06 PM »
Yes, but the really galling thing was, we weren't beaten by a really good side. We were beaten by Norf.

Hellenic Tiger

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2013, 01:15:03 PM »
Yes, but the really galling thing was, we weren't beaten by a really good side. We were beaten by Norf.

Maybe so and as I have said it stings bad given it is Nought but we were just not good enough at all and when you play like that crap sides like Nought will beat you badly and good sides like Sydney and Geelong will annihilate you.

A bit of perspective coupled with some humility and hard truth won't go astray.

Yes it hurts but all is not lost.

tony_montana

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2013, 05:13:30 PM »
You go man on man and play a contested game, or u back your own decision making and foot skills to get through the congestion. Just got to get better and I'd love to see us go man on man sometimes, think that would suit us tbh

Gigantor

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2013, 05:15:39 PM »
interesting to also note that North attacked through the middle for a lot of the time,whereas we went deep into the pockets or at least that's where the boys led to.

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2013, 05:38:38 PM »
What I learnt although it was something I've always known is that we cannot afford to have all good players down as our depth is still not where it needs to be

Also, that our players when put under extreme pressure their skills crumble quicker than deck of cards and their decision making is still very poor.

When we are on song, we are very very good when we are not, well see exhibit A, yesterday against N0rt
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

Offline Penelope

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2013, 06:31:13 PM »
What I learnt yesterday was that after four years in the job, Dimma still has absolutely no answer against teams who "park the bus" in our forward line (as Mighty Tigers calls it.) North and Freo do it to us every single time, and we MUST come up with a way to counter it. There are two elements to it: 1. them congesting our forward line, and 2. them creating the acres of space on the rebound that they deny us.
Like Dimma, and indeed the team, I have absolutely no answer to countering the first part of the equation. We have tried bombing into the mess, and that doesn't work. We have tried chipping around the periphery, and that doesn't work. We have tried coming in from the boundary line, which just leads to loads of shots from impossible angles, and a scoreline of 4.15 (which is what we had kicked when I left in disgust at 3/4 time.) Seriously, if anybody has any credible answers to this conundrum, I am all ears. More importantly, maybe you should e-mail them to our football department.
The second part of the equation is a lot easier to counter in theory. If our defenders and mids follow their opponents deep into our forward line when they are pushing numbers behind the ball, they MUST be prepared to follow them back out again. They have so far in these situations been too dumb and too effing lazy to do the gut-running required to stop being caught on the rebound time and time again. Which is basically what repeatedly happened in that abysmally frustrating second quarter.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents worth. As I said, if anybody has any ideas I'm all ears. The club CANNOT keep letting this happen.

 
You talk about something that was abundantly clear on TV and that is the way North congested our forward line, while so often managing to isolate their tall forwards one or two out. What you cant see on TV is why or how this is happening. I have no doubt that hardwick was comprehensively outcoached on this basis alone. It didn't help that our mids would often pass to  2 on on contest and i cant for the life of work out why this should be happening. Surely they couldnt have consitently got enough men back to double team each of our three main forward targets?

The other thing I got out this game is how we slowly but surely buckled under their pressure. The first quarter was just ferocious with the tackling and pressurere on the ball carrier by both sides and i felt that we were slightly on top. The first quarter was reminiscent of a final in this aspect At one stage late in the quarter we had something like 75% of the time in our forward half but couldn't convert.
But then the pendulum started to swing. They started to find outs from these pressure situations. Initially they had to work hard to do so, but as the game wore on it became easier and easier and our pressure just dropped right off, opening the floodgates. All the while we just couldnt find outs ourselves, and again North had to work hard, but as the game went on we folded under this pressure easier and easier. Into the third quarter and we were getting outnumbered at the contest in the same way we did when belted by essendon.

I really cant think to when i last saw a game involving richmond with the hardness and intensity of the first 15-20 mins, so I am hoping it is a big learning experience for the players, but the way we gradually capitulated is a concern .

As much as people wont, you do have to give credit to north. They turned up to play and were relentless with their pressure and work rate all day. Even in the last on a couple of occasions that we started to get some run they quickly put a stop to it, even though the game was well and truly over.


Ohh one more thing. Stuff i hate harvey, the squealing little toe rag.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline mightytiges

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2013, 04:58:55 AM »
What I learnt although it was something I've always known is that we cannot afford to have all good players down as our depth is still not where it needs to be
Agree WP.

We really missed Houli's footskills when distributing the ball. Ellis going off early hurt. We missed him in our midfield rotations against Essendon and it showed again against North once he went off. I'm not one of Jacko's biggest fans but with Ellis subbed out early, having Jacko running around on one leg because we couldn't sub him out as well would've stuffed up interchange rotations and our run.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline Stripes

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2013, 11:32:20 AM »
What I learnt was that -

1. We were out coached
2. We continue to struggle when teams play a tight, accountable, man-on-man style of football particularly on small grounds
3. We still rely on too few to much
4. Jack should have been pushed further up the ground and the Big O sent to the goal square. We were too predictable in our forward entries partially due
5. Our forward pressure was poor compared to Norths. They had the stronger bodied defenders, the frenetic intensity and midfielders willing to work back to help.
6. We are still years off being a contender. We need more time to develop our young players such as Conca, Ellis, Vlaustin, Grimes, McBean and Griffiths/Elton.

Offline Stripes

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2013, 11:40:27 AM »
In terms of players, I feel we need in the next 2 years -

McBean to develop into our ruck/forward
Elton/Griffiths to develop into our second tall forward
Ellis, Conca & Vlaustin to develop into at least consistent B+ midfielders
Vickery to take the No. 1 Ruck duties  :outtahere
Grimes &/or Astbury to become our 2nd tall defender

Recruitment-wise I feel we need a small crumber forward and another outside mid/winger.

Unlike other year/eras, all of this is achievable in the next couple of years as we have the players with the capabilities to develop into the roles/positions we are lacking.

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2013, 01:24:19 PM »
2. We continue to struggle when teams play a tight, accountable, man-on-man style of football particularly on small grounds

But N0rt didn't really play man on man Stripes, they had a spare in their back half for nearly the entire game and they smashed us with it. We didn't counter that by playing man on man footy ourselves

hence, why your point 1 is spot on, we were out coached
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

Offline lamington

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2013, 02:20:59 PM »
What I learnt was that -

1. We were out coached
2. We continue to struggle when teams play a tight, accountable, man-on-man style of football particularly on small grounds
3. We still rely on too few to much
4. Jack should have been pushed further up the ground and the Big O sent to the goal square. We were too predictable in our forward entries partially due
5. Our forward pressure was poor compared to Norths. They had the stronger bodied defenders, the frenetic intensity and midfielders willing to work back to help.
6. We are still years off being a contender. We need more time to develop our young players such as Conca, Ellis, Vlaustin, Grimes, McBean and Griffiths/Elton.

exactly this. A plan B is in desperate need. We need to be able to play ugly football when our silky V Port or V West Coast brand isn't working. It's like rock/paper/scissors. Can't always keep sending out the rock

Offline Stripes

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Re: What I learnt today
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2013, 08:15:52 PM »
2. We continue to struggle when teams play a tight, accountable, man-on-man style of football particularly on small grounds

But N0rt didn't really play man on man Stripes, they had a spare in their back half for nearly the entire game and they smashed us with it. We didn't counter that by playing man on man footy ourselves

hence, why your point 1 is spot on, we were out coached

Watching the game I noticed how North did not leave any of our players any space particularly out the back of stoppages. They were very accountable and ensured that their first priority was their opponent and only spread when they won the ball clearly. The amount of players they had contesting each stoppage was noticeable and they had far fewer players 'hovering' on the outside of contests, waiting for the quick handball out, than usual.

Winning the one-on-one contests is what earnt them the four points but their size and attitude is what set the win up.