Author Topic: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?  (Read 3904 times)

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2013, 08:28:34 PM »
do we know what lance franklin is on?

or just media speculation >?

Offline Hard Roar Tiger

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2013, 08:55:51 PM »
To short answer your subject question Y&B, no we didn't go too early.

To respond to each player individually:

Mumford - only came about after the Franklin trade which left the Swans unable to match his contract offer.  The fact he went to GWS tells me he never intended or wanted to move from the Sydney area so we were never in the hunt for him.
McEvoy - again, only came about after a number of other moves and he was far too expensive in terms of picks/swaps for what we would have been prepared to pay so again, we were never in the hunt for him.
Hampson - ticked most of the boxes the club was after - age, trade price, contract terms, ability (or potential) and the decision by both parties had obviously been made long before the trade period.
Longer - Still hasn't found a new home and at 20 still has question marks as well as the potential for big improvement but isn't going to come cheaply and again, we were never in the hunt for him.

If the club had decided to wait until the cards started to topple then there is the very real likelihood that we could have ended up without a ruckman or paying way over the odds for one so I think that going early was the smartest thing to do by a long way.  Life is far easier and risk-averse when you deal in knowns and Hampson at the price was a known right from day one.  The decision was a no-brainer of the highest order for a club that is now very much following a planned, methodical approach to list growth and management.  If Hampson is a success or not is for another debate but the decision to take him when they did was certainly the correct one.
How do you know any of this poo? Do you work at the club?

Where does it say Mumford wouldn't have left Sydney?
How do you know our pick 11 (at the time) wouldn't 't have been enough to get McEvoy from St. Kilda?
Why couldn't we have been in the hunt for Longer? We have pick 12 FFS.

You talk about "you deal in the knowns" well you don't know anything you wrote is that.
It's your opinion what you wrote, but don't claim it to be anything else but that because you don't know.

But since you seem to no so much about our "planned, methodical approach to list growth and management" please tell us all what this approach is??

And lastly you saying taking Hampson is curtainly the correct decision is again just your opinion, the club made that decision but it doesn't mean it's the correct one. The club took Jordie McMahon and how did that end up for us?

Where the hell is spell check when you need him? I boof 1 goat and he's all over me like a cheap suit on a jolly Santa and this bloke makes group goat porn and we don't hear a peep?
“I find it nearly impossible to make those judgments, but he is certainly up there with the really important ones, he is certainly up there with the Francis Bourkes and the Royce Harts and the Kevin Bartlett and the Kevin Sheedys, there is no doubt about that,” Balme said.

Offline bojangles17

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2013, 09:36:56 PM »
Mcevoy would be on too much coin , read same for Mumford. Only other genuine choice was longer. His upside remains speculative meaning he could hardly be relied on to be a backup for Maric. We chose well, perhaps paid 5-6 spits more than desirable, that's how the cards fell :cheers
The truth is none of us know  how much "coin" anybody is on, how much salary cap space we have or what our plans are.
I personally don't give a stuff how much we pay our players, it's not my job or concern, my only concern is us winning games of footy. We all fork out good money to this club of ours and put a lot of faith in people in positions at our club but we really don't know if any of them know what they are doing.
IMO not taking the best player available for the hole we intend to fill is an opportunity lost. And again IMO we were far from that.
When I say too much coin I mean that by being a top 5 player at saints would suggest he s in order of 500k ...umm that won't fit ::)....read same for Mumford, we have a salary cap , we signed our super stars and it limits our options, period :shh
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Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2013, 09:41:56 PM »
all i am saying is people should complain

a) we don't know our salary cap situation in detail

b) we are maxed our salary cap

not both. how can you argue both lines ,  ?

Offline yellowandback

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2013, 04:40:10 AM »
Playing the devils advocate for one moment:-

Premiers and ourselves had the same need, both operate on the same salary cap but they can somehow fit a more expensive, better credentialed ruck with inferior draft picks.
I know they lost buddy but I don't see how they are left with less stars than our list to accommodate.

It's that simple Spud
"I discussed (it) with my three daughters, my wife and my 82-year-old mum, because it has really affected me … If those comments … were made about one of my daughters, it would make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I would not have liked it at all.”

Offline YellowandBlackBlood

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2013, 07:59:34 AM »
Should have gone after Nic Nat! ;D
Nahas to WC in a direct swap! ;D

Then the natives would think we got a good deal! :whistle
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tony_montana

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2013, 10:47:57 AM »
Playing the devils advocate for one moment:-

Premiers and ourselves had the same need, both operate on the same salary cap but they can somehow fit a more expensive, better credentialed ruck with inferior draft picks.
I know they lost buddy but I don't see how they are left with less stars than our list to accommodate.

its bc 95% of the cap needs to be paid regardless, so you have a situation that only 450k separates TPP between hawks and dees.

hawks lose buddy and have 1.1 mill to spend.

same with pies when they lost daisy, didak, shaw etc, this year it was their time, next year they wont be in such a position and itll b someone elses turn

Offline Smokey

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2013, 11:21:38 AM »
To short answer your subject question Y&B, no we didn't go too early.

To respond to each player individually:

Mumford - only came about after the Franklin trade which left the Swans unable to match his contract offer.  The fact he went to GWS tells me he never intended or wanted to move from the Sydney area so we were never in the hunt for him.
McEvoy - again, only came about after a number of other moves and he was far too expensive in terms of picks/swaps for what we would have been prepared to pay so again, we were never in the hunt for him.
Hampson - ticked most of the boxes the club was after - age, trade price, contract terms, ability (or potential) and the decision by both parties had obviously been made long before the trade period.
Longer - Still hasn't found a new home and at 20 still has question marks as well as the potential for big improvement but isn't going to come cheaply and again, we were never in the hunt for him.

If the club had decided to wait until the cards started to topple then there is the very real likelihood that we could have ended up without a ruckman or paying way over the odds for one so I think that going early was the smartest thing to do by a long way.  Life is far easier and risk-averse when you deal in knowns and Hampson at the price was a known right from day one.  The decision was a no-brainer of the highest order for a club that is now very much following a planned, methodical approach to list growth and management.  If Hampson is a success or not is for another debate but the decision to take him when they did was certainly the correct one.
How do you know any of this poo? Do you work at the club?

Where does it say Mumford wouldn't have left Sydney?
How do you know our pick 11 (at the time) wouldn't 't have been enough to get McEvoy from St. Kilda?
Why couldn't we have been in the hunt for Longer? We have pick 12 FFS.

You talk about "you deal in the knowns" well you don't know anything you wrote is that.
It's your opinion what you wrote, but don't claim it to be anything else but that because you don't know.

But since you seem to no so much about our "planned, methodical approach to list growth and management" please tell us all what this approach is??

And lastly you saying taking Hampson is curtainly the correct decision is again just your opinion, the club made that decision but it doesn't mean it's the correct one. The club took Jordie McMahon and how did that end up for us?

Righto, seeing I have upset you so much with providing my opinion on an opinion-based forum in response to a hypothetical question asking for people's opinions I had best apologise for my opinion and go with your facts of which their are none.  But to everyone else who has had their say on here regarding their opinion on whether we went too early on Hampson then I implore you to be very careful lest the fact-police jump on your opinion also.

And just so we are clear:

"The fact he went to GWS tells me", "he was far too expensive in terms of picks/swaps for what we would have been prepared to pay", "decision by both parties had obviously been made long before the trade period", "at 20 still has question marks as well as the potential for big improvement but isn't going to come cheaply"

all sound very much like opinions and not declarations of facts but you read it how you want I guess.

And thank you very much for bit-piecing the comment about dealing in knowns completely out of context and using it to shore up your little rant but again, whatever floats your boat.  Can't wait for your next opinion on anything.  ::)

Offline Chuck17

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2013, 11:48:59 AM »
The fact that Angus Hampson is the clear winner on this poll shows the RFC is right on the money in this case

Offline yellowandback

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2013, 12:23:34 PM »
Playing the devils advocate for one moment:-

Premiers and ourselves had the same need, both operate on the same salary cap but they can somehow fit a more expensive, better credentialed ruck with inferior draft picks.
I know they lost buddy but I don't see how they are left with less stars than our list to accommodate.

its bc 95% of the cap needs to be paid regardless, so you have a situation that only 450k separates TPP between hawks and dees.

hawks lose buddy and have 1.1 mill to spend.

same with pies when they lost daisy, didak, shaw etc, this year it was their time, next year they wont be in such a position and itll b someone elses turn

So potentially had we lost Dusty to GWS, we may have gone after a McEvoy and possibly Adams.
Given a fully paid up, signed up player list - we are backing their continued development.
It's that simple Spud
"I discussed (it) with my three daughters, my wife and my 82-year-old mum, because it has really affected me … If those comments … were made about one of my daughters, it would make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I would not have liked it at all.”

tony_montana

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2013, 02:51:07 PM »
Playing the devils advocate for one moment:-

Premiers and ourselves had the same need, both operate on the same salary cap but they can somehow fit a more expensive, better credentialed ruck with inferior draft picks.
I know they lost buddy but I don't see how they are left with less stars than our list to accommodate.

its bc 95% of the cap needs to be paid regardless, so you have a situation that only 450k separates TPP between hawks and dees.

hawks lose buddy and have 1.1 mill to spend.

same with pies when they lost daisy, didak, shaw etc, this year it was their time, next year they wont be in such a position and itll b someone elses turn

So potentially had we lost Dusty to GWS, we may have gone after a McEvoy and possibly Adams.
Given a fully paid up, signed up player list - we are backing their continued development.

spot on. Had Dusty gone, we would have been in a position to be able to go for big wage players like big boy. mummy, Adams etc.

Hopefully now we are doing what Hawks are doing and looking well ahead & front ending as many contracts as we can so that in a few years our Sammy mitchells will be on 350k a season.

Offline bojangles17

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2013, 04:41:31 PM »
Agreed :cheers
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Offline tigs2011

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2013, 01:32:59 AM »
Playing the devils advocate for one moment:-

Premiers and ourselves had the same need, both operate on the same salary cap but they can somehow fit a more expensive, better credentialed ruck with inferior draft picks.
I know they lost buddy but I don't see how they are left with less stars than our list to accommodate.

its bc 95% of the cap needs to be paid regardless, so you have a situation that only 450k separates TPP between hawks and dees.

hawks lose buddy and have 1.1 mill to spend.

same with pies when they lost daisy, didak, shaw etc, this year it was their time, next year they wont be in such a position and itll b someone elses turn

So potentially had we lost Dusty to GWS, we may have gone after a McEvoy and possibly Adams.
Given a fully paid up, signed up player list - we are backing their continued development.

spot on. Had Dusty gone, we would have been in a position to be able to go for big wage players like big boy. mummy, Adams etc.

Hopefully now we are doing what Hawks are doing and looking well ahead & front ending as many contracts as we can so that in a few years our Sammy mitchells will be on 350k a season.
Thank god we didn't have the money for Big Boy. He's terrible in the ruck. Good around the ground though.

Longer would have been my preferred option but it seems we aren't after a young back-up and are going to play Hampson straight away.

Offline Darth Tiger

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2013, 10:36:27 AM »
Interesting question, and hindsight is a wonderful teacher.

RFC thru Blair identified the type of ruckmen that is was seeking in an athletic mobile 2nd ruck that can pinch hit as part of the forward rotations.

Overlaying that the player needed to be in the right age & salary bracket.

Obviously they had a few names under consideration, I am wondering whether they targeted a 2nd ruck purely to back up Ivan or whether they thought they could get an undervalued ruck option that can mature into a 1st ruck by 27/28 years old.

The logic for a 2nd round ruck trade appears solid, the question is whether Hampson was the best value choice given his skill set and injury history.

TV and McBean as future #1 & #2 ruck stocks appears to be the preferred set-up into the future, so RFC need both a veteran back-up and a development ruck to keep the ruck stocks balanced at 4 on the list proper and 1 rookie in the VFL squad.

RFC may no longer have Strawbs and Steinforts and Nobles disasters as part of the considered development programme for ruck stocks because Richmond has the chance to genuinely develop its own ruck stocks (TV & McBean) for the first time since Mark Lee.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Did we throw the cards in too early in trading for a Ruckman?
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2013, 12:20:06 PM »
Interesting question, and hindsight is a wonderful teacher.

RFC thru Blair identified the type of ruckmen that is was seeking in an athletic mobile 2nd ruck that can pinch hit as part of the forward rotations.

Overlaying that the player needed to be in the right age & salary bracket.

Obviously they had a few names under consideration, I am wondering whether they targeted a 2nd ruck purely to back up Ivan or whether they thought they could get an undervalued ruck option that can mature into a 1st ruck by 27/28 years old.

The logic for a 2nd round ruck trade appears solid, the question is whether Hampson was the best value choice given his skill set and injury history.

TV and McBean as future #1 & #2 ruck stocks appears to be the preferred set-up into the future, so RFC need both a veteran back-up and a development ruck to keep the ruck stocks balanced at 4 on the list proper and 1 rookie in the VFL squad.

RFC may no longer have Strawbs and Steinforts and Nobles disasters as part of the considered development programme for ruck stocks because Richmond has the chance to genuinely develop its own ruck stocks (TV & McBean) for the first time since Mark Lee.

what a positive and optimistic post.