Don't Rebuild FFS

[1980 I Was There]

The last time we beat collingwood was back in Rd 19 2007 as you are all unfortunately aware of, along with a win in Rd 3 2006 and in Rd 8 2005.

The last time the Tigers had more game experience than collingwood in a match was that win back in 2005. From then on, their team games out numbered us sometimes by more than a 1000 games and most other times by just a few hundred.
This was also the same for goals kicked for the entire team. The last time we beat collingwood was when we had more goals experience than them back in 2007.

My point, keep the players we have, allow them more and more experience and we will start winning many more games. This scenario is very similar to geelong.
2008 saw us with our highest on ground team goal experience with more than 1900 accumulative goals of experience at the start of that game. This drops very sharply over a few years (in 2011) to just a little over 600 goals experience for the entire team that played, that is a massive drop. The games experience drops from more than 2100 (in 2008) to a touch more than 1200 (in 2011) another massive drop.

The year 2012 sees us rise to 900 goals experience and the year 2013 to 1100 goals experience.
The year 2012 sees us rise to 1200 games experience and the year 2013 to 2000 games experience.

So this is what you would call rebuilding, geelong did it, and hawthorn did it too.
The difference between them and us, they keep players, good players for a long time and they also keep potential players who become good players over a long period of time.

Why the stuff would a team get a new player whose 30 years old with only a few games under his belt, Orren Stephenson is who I and talking about. If you're going to get an oldie, get someone with game experience, someone like chappy FFS.

[tigs2011]

We should still be rebuilding. Blooding kids. Not topping up. Doesn't mean we have to go to the bottom of the ladder. Can win games while rebuilding. Needs to happen. Desperately.

[1980 I Was There]

We should still be rebuilding. Blooding kids. Not topping up. Doesn't mean we have to go to the bottom of the ladder. Can win games while rebuilding. Needs to happen. Desperately.

My point is that we are rebuilding NOW.
Getting rid of players hoping to get better players and fill gaps is Richmonds biggest downfall.
Richmond continuously recruits players, especially old players that have bugger all experience, as in games played.
Thomas 7 and a bit years to reach 91 games and is 27 years old. He will probably get a lot of games at Richmond becuase we got no one else. Stupidity.
Stephenson 2 years for 15 games 31 years old. Geelong are successful and had a good reason to get rid of him.More greater stupidity.
Hampson 7 years for 66 games 26 years old. Not going to get much out of him either in the long run.
And of course there are more.....

On the other hand players like....
Vickery 5 and a bit years for 79 games and ONLY 23 years old. He's got what Hawthorn and Geelong would call potential, they would keep players like this and develop them over a number of years. WE DON'T!
So this is what is known as development and rebuilding.
You don't get rid of players just because you think it's a good thing.

If you don't believe me take a look at the players we have lost over the past few years to other successful clubs.
Keep the young players we have and build them into great players, stop delisting good players to try and find elite players which is what Richmond has done forever now.

[the claw]

all clubs are continually building we are building but unfortunately we have decided the list is good enough and have gone down a top up sort of route.

thing is weather starting from scratch, value adding or just continuing to go thru your building processes you still have to identify players who are not going to take you where you want and move em on. the flip side obviously identify those who you think can  take you somewhere and find out.

i dont get it,  this list was never ever good enough to win a premiership. it was patently obvious we were in the same boat as 10 or so other sides chasing a 5th thru 8th position with the real possibility of finishing around 14th if we dinnt continue to address needs and improve or if we stagnated and other sides improved more than us. why are so many so shocked.

anyone who thinks our rebuild was anywhere near complete is really kidding themselves. its not as if the cupboard is bare but it was also apparent the cupboard was hardly overflowing with goods either.
the club have assesed our list wrong its no big deal in the long term as long as we acknowledge we still need to have as a priority recruiting quality kids  and developing them.
we also need to find mature players who are upgrades on players we have. in short get back to what had us improve in hardwicks first 3 yrs.

lets see what is the base to build upon and we have a decent base,  there is no need for a rebuild as such  there is a need to continue building with good processes and improving the list as much as possible.

established consistent players who  are at the least decent.
conca may not be as good as most think but i reckon he will be servicable.
cotchin - say no more
deledio - very good player.
ellis - not totally established but will be a decent player if not more. has to round his game out.
jackson - has become a decent player playing within his limitations and cutting out mistakes.
maric - irreplaceable we just have to get a junior on the list with similar traits in preparation for when hes not there.
martin - very good player has to continue to work on weaknesses in his game.
morris - limited player but very good at his role.
rance - have argued hes not an ideal kpd but would make an excellent third tall providing run.
riewoldt - is a good player has his weaknesses  and can get better still.
vlastuin - id say hes already an established player.

not established but are either showing a bit or have good potential to make it. plus kids who need time.
arnot - hes borderline but he could become a decent player
astbury - finally showing a bit with continuity should get better and better. good chance of becoming at least decent
elton - shows a lot of potential especially in the air.
griffiths - see astbury good chance he will become at least a decent player.
grimes - has work to do has played some pretty good footy at times needs to work on areas and find consistency. should make it. harsh maybe he could go in the list above.
knights - is an established  good player when fit. has to show he can overcome injuries if he does hes  worth keeping.
lennon - well hes our first round pick potentially should be a good player.
mcbean - like elton its all potential but looks likely.
mcdonough - i put him here  to save arguments im not sure he has the tools.
mcintosh - looks to me to have all the right tools to play as a tall running defender, hast done a lot.
miles - think he can play needs to establish himself though.
lloyd - yet to establish himself who knows how he will end up.
gordon - see lloyd could take us forward he may not.
ohanlon - still very young he has potential but needs time. may make it may not.

imo these are the ones with the best chance of achieving something for us.
clearly quality and list structure has to be addresed still. imo its a damn good starting point and a good platform to continue the build.

those imo who cant take us forward to success some are definately needed in the short term though so we have to cut carefully.

banfield- just lacks the required skills imo.
batchelor - too slow not big enough  just not clean enough.
chaplin - one of the biggest needs we have is finding a very good big bodied 1v1 defender. chappie cant be cut atm we have so few tall defenders but he wont take us forward imo.
darrou - 3 yrs on the rookie list and no real push to be upgraded.
dea - hate to place him here but 4 yrs in he has to dramatically improve to justify his spot.after 4 yrs not sure he can make that next step.
a edwards - i like him as a player at 31 though he aint taking us anywhere.
s edwards - of all the players on the list id cut him first. just too much mediocrity and inconsistency for too long.
foley - we have been waiting for yrs for nathan to get back somewhere close to his best. we cant wait forever. im one who liked this player a lot when on song.
grigg - i reckon as a player providing run hes has been srvicable but ffs we cant afford to play such deficient players. not hard to upgrade on imo.
hampson - still not sold on this bloke could well be another upgrade we need to upgrade on. hes needed in the short term though. we have no option but add to our talls rather than diminishing them atm.
helbig -  could have gone in the second list but a player of his size and type should have established himself by now he has to improve a lot to be kept if he does id keep him.
houli - people wont like it but i know we can do better than him he aint a part of the future imo and he aint going to get us into the top 4.
king - has to go the lack of quality and class should have seen him delisted yrs ago.
newman - should if need be be forced to bow out gracefully this yr.
petterd - a real tryer but again the lack of quality and polish and smarts.
stephenson -  should never have stayed on the list imo not with the arrival of hampson.
thomas - probably a harsh call, he is a replacement for tuck right now but he aint the long term answer.
vickery - sorry people but dont see it with him if we kept him for another yr so be it.  again i dont think hes going to take us where we want to get.

[Judge Roughneck]

As per usual almost entirely agree. I concur that we have the base to build. Any talk of a total rebuild is ludicrous. For example:


Deledio - Grimes. - Morris.
Astbury. RanceAlex - mcdonuts
Conca. Vlastuin. Ellis.
Lennon. Griffiths. Arnot.
Lloyd.  Riewoldt.  Mcbean.
Maric. Martin. Cotchin.
Vickery. Knights. Gordon. Miles





Shane Edwards - not the first one is remove. Has more upside IMO than a few of the dim as favs.

Helbig - I would like half a dozen games before getting rid of him. Can play and is tough.

Dea - I rate him and would love to see 6-8 games in the Backline.

Bachelor - simar to mattyDea. Doesn't have the skill or run of houli but far less soft

Vickery - still young for a player of that size. With mcbean and Elton, and the I injuries to maric I'd like to see him as the ruckman. Upgrade IMO on hampson. Might lose a bit of hit outs but superior around the ground

Realistic wise you can't delist a dozen players. Good to see the Richmond vfl side kids find form this week

[tigs2011]

We should still be rebuilding. Blooding kids. Not topping up. Doesn't mean we have to go to the bottom of the ladder. Can win games while rebuilding. Needs to happen. Desperately.

My point is that we are rebuilding NOW.
Getting rid of players hoping to get better players and fill gaps is Richmonds biggest downfall.
Richmond continuously recruits players, especially old players that have bugger all experience, as in games played.
Thomas 7 and a bit years to reach 91 games and is 27 years old. He will probably get a lot of games at Richmond becuase we got no one else. Stupidity.
Stephenson 2 years for 15 games 31 years old. Geelong are successful and had a good reason to get rid of him.More greater stupidity.
Hampson 7 years for 66 games 26 years old. Not going to get much out of him either in the long run.
And of course there are more.....

On the other hand players like....
Vickery 5 and a bit years for 79 games and ONLY 23 years old. He's got what Hawthorn and Geelong would call potential, they would keep players like this and develop them over a number of years. WE DON'T!
So this is what is known as development and rebuilding.
You don't get rid of players just because you think it's a good thing.

If you don't believe me take a look at the players we have lost over the past few years to other successful clubs.
Keep the young players we have and build them into great players, stop delisting good players to try and find elite players which is what Richmond has done forever now.

Don't disagree with any of that. Playing Spuds & Friends we have effectively stopped rebuilding by not playing guys with upside.

I reckon we had 12 C-graders in the side with 2 others who barely played like C-graders (being generous) That's 14 out of 22. No wonder we are playing like poo.

[tigs2011]

Agree with most of that claw.

I think Vickery belongs on the 2nd list. Just depends if he wants it enough whether he goes 1st or 3rd list in the end.

Houli would still be a good depth player. Needs to be playing in the backline where he is accountable for a man. He's bloody woeful up the field. Another situation where it wasn't broken, so Dimma breaks it to try fix it for a laugh.

Dea and Helbig need to be given a chance. In fact they already should have been given a crack and moved on if they failed. If their bodies break down again then move them on.

[MADTIGER2010]

Need to clear out the slow thinkers and movers as well as the less skilled types and we need to draft some long kicking speedsters.
Petterd, Thomson, Newman, Grigg, A Edwards Stephenson OUT

[Judge Roughneck]

We should still be rebuilding. Blooding kids. Not topping up. Doesn't mean we have to go to the bottom of the ladder. Can win games while rebuilding. Needs to happen. Desperately.

My point is that we are rebuilding NOW.
Getting rid of players hoping to get better players and fill gaps is Richmonds biggest downfall.
Richmond continuously recruits players, especially old players that have bugger all experience, as in games played.
Thomas 7 and a bit years to reach 91 games and is 27 years old. He will probably get a lot of games at Richmond becuase we got no one else. Stupidity.
Stephenson 2 years for 15 games 31 years old. Geelong are successful and had a good reason to get rid of him.More greater stupidity.
Hampson 7 years for 66 games 26 years old. Not going to get much out of him either in the long run.
And of course there are more.....

On the other hand players like....
Vickery 5 and a bit years for 79 games and ONLY 23 years old. He's got what Hawthorn and Geelong would call potential, they would keep players like this and develop them over a number of years. WE DON'T!
So this is what is known as development and rebuilding.
You don't get rid of players just because you think it's a good thing.

If you don't believe me take a look at the players we have lost over the past few years to other successful clubs.
Keep the young players we have and build them into great players, stop delisting good players to try and find elite players which is what Richmond has done forever now.

Don't disagree with any of that. Playing Spuds & Friends we have effectively stopped rebuilding by not playing guys with upside.

I reckon we had 12 C-graders in the side with 2 others who barely played like C-graders (being generous) That's 14 out of 22. No wonder we are playing like poo.

The Wallace .method all over again