Author Topic: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)  (Read 2221 times)

Offline Phil Mrakov

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Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« on: May 08, 2014, 10:02:32 PM »
Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers?

By Maddy Friend

Big things were expected from Richmond this season. It was widely accepted in the football world that the Tigers would continue their excellent form from last year.

That form saw them finish in fifth at the end of the regular season, and qualify for their first finals appearance in decades.

Despite losing that final to Carlton, the signs were there that perhaps the Tigers had finally arrived as a genuine finals contender after so many years in the football wilderness.

However, the improvement has not continued, and many are beginning to question just where the Tigers are at in their development.

Having won just two games so far this season, the Tigers’ lack of run, basic skill errors and over-reliance on key players has led to questions over not just the team’s short-term form, but its overall recruitment philosophy. Ultimately, it would appear that the recruitment approach favoured by the Tigers has not set them up for the ultimate success.

Columnist Michael Gleeson wrote an article in The Age earlier in the week questioning Richmond’s recent recruiting strategy.

His article contends that the ‘Moneyball’ policy pursued by the Tigers, where the team has focused on recruiting proven players to fill gaps and identified needs in the team at the expense of drafting top young talent, has backfired this season.

Gleeson cites the Tigers’ over-reliance on players such as defender Alex Rance, ruckman Ivan Maric, and star midfielder-cum-defender Brett Deledio, as exposing ‘the gulf between the better players and the plethora of battlers’.

It was this group of unfashionable, recycled players who arguably made the difference for Richmond last season.

Experienced heads Shaun Grigg and Bachar Houli were brought in from Carlton and Essendon respectively, and made immediate contributions to the team. Small defender Steve Morris, recruited from the state leagues, brought a hard edge to his role as a shutdown small defender.

At the end of 2013, Richmond enticed Port Adelaide defender Troy Chaplin to the club, thereby filling their need for a developed, experienced key back. On the results of previous seasons, it seemed that the Tigers’ recruiting strategy had borne fruit.

However, with the team’s poor form this season, that view has shifted. Perhaps the most recent example of this was the decision to use pick 28 in last year’s draft on much-maligned Carlton ruckman Shaun Hampson. The decision originally looked fortuitous when Maric went down with injury at the beginning of this season.

However, since the opening round, Hampson’s form has been less than impressive – a statistical example is his seven marks in five games. This raises the question over whether the decision to recruit him at the expense of young talent has been worth it.

This brings us to the central argument: does Richmond’s decline in form point to the death of the ‘Moneyball’ principle as a recruiting strategy?

First coined in US baseball’s major league by the Oakland A’s in 2002, the strategy was devised to allow an under-resourced team to compete with its bigger, richer rivals by recruiting players undervalued by the rest of the baseball world.

These players lacked star quality, but had proven abilities in certain areas. The strategy was a success for Oakland, taking them to the playoffs in 2002 and 2003, and has since been the blueprint for competitiveness for smaller sporting teams around the world.

Richmond has been the greatest exponent of this within the AFL. Rather than use their early draft picks to select talented, but untried, youngsters, many of whom would require years of development, the club chose to bring in mature players from other teams or state leagues. Houli, Grigg, Hampson, Morris, Chaplin and a number of others were all identified by Richmond chief recruiters Blair Hartley and Francis Jackson as being able to fill a need for their team.

These players have performed admirably over the past few years, and their presence has arguably allowed Richmond’s brigade of young players to develop and hone their skills. Richmond’s top draftees from the past few years – Brandon Ellis, Reece Conca and Nick Vlaustin – have all benefited from having mature, more experienced heads around them as they have embarked on their football careers.

However, the development of these younger players has stalled this year, and the more mature heads are not performing to the expected standard. Hence the Tigers’ slide down the ladder.

It appears then, that ‘Moneyball’ as a strategy, can work in the short-term, but may not be a guarantor of long-term success. Too much depends on the performance of mature players week-in, week-out, while the younger players who do come in are often found to be out of their depth.

Contrast this approach to the one taken by Geelong, regarded has having the best list management strategy of the past 10 years.

Despite having had few low draft selections due to their high ladder finishes in recent times, Geelong has managed to blend experience with youth to great effect. Chief recruiter Stephen Wells has a knack of unearthing high-calibre players with late draft picks, Allen Christensen and Matthew Stokes being two recent examples. They top up with players from other clubs only when they fill an immediate need, or when the club does not have any quality youngsters pressing for a spot in that position.

The club has backed its young players to the hilt, not being afraid to throw them into high-pressure situations and give them positions of responsibility. The players have been all the better for it – young defender Cam Guthrie is one such example. In the absence of stalwart defenders Joel Corey (retirement) and Corey Enright (injury), Guthrie has stepped into their shoes with seamless aplomb, often curtailing one of the opposition’s most dangerous small forwards.

It would appear then that the success of ‘Moneyball’ as a recruiting strategy depends on the culture of the club in question, and the quality of the players already there.

For a team such as Geelong, with superstar experienced players such as Joel Selwood, Jimmy Bartel and Steve Johnson, topped up with players from other clubs, it merely helps to cement this culture of success.

However, for a team such as Richmond, which boasts a number of star players, but many more ‘battlers’, recruiting mature-aged players over future stars serves to make the team solid, but lacking in the star power needed to win games.

In order to achieve the success they so desire in the next few years, the Tigers would be better served conserving their draft picks to use on young, talented players.

With the right development, these players could add the star factor the team needs to be a finals contender in the coming years.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2014/05/08/has-moneyball-backfired-for-the-tigers/
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Online Willy

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2014, 12:39:43 AM »
Poo article. It implies that's we've given up a bunch of good draft picks for these players which isn't the case. Hamspud was the only one that really cost us anything.

Offline Tigeritis™©®

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2014, 01:19:18 AM »
Richmond vs Geelong.

It's not a mere recruitment or development strategy that seperates these teams.

The philosophy of both teams are polls apart & this is why there is the massive chasm of success that separates these two teams. 

Geelong is a well oiled machine. The demands are high and everyone that becomes involved within its organization know too well the level that's required to acheive success.
Excellence is obviously adhered to in the strictest fashion. Players with obvious abilities at junior level are taught very quickly the non-negotiables in terms of what is required to stay a part of the organization.
Nothing within its walls manifests anything other than the standards previously accepted.
As an outcome there isn't any element of individualism but a complete portrayal of team first mentality. Leaders are nurtured & revered as they become an extension of the overall team philosophy on the field.

Richmond in contracts have "no soul". There is no "built in filter" to resist the hype, frenzy and over exuberant emotion that propels the expectations & creates an environment of prima donnas, even though the team has achieved nothing & haven't maintained a sustained successful era.
Culture is the underlying problem at Richmond. Until this is addressed the cycle if mediocrity will forever be repeated despite the so called strategy that may be implemented.

In a good culture, strategies such as money-ball or youth development will achieve success as in each case success is built on a strong foundation of values that are adhered too regardless of the development timeframe in which the club finds itself.

Culture is the key component that either drives a winning philosophy and a positive cycle of sustained success or it's forever trapped in the cycle of mediocrity constantly breaking the hearts of supporters over & over again doomed to the hope of another successful rebuild.
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Online Francois Jackson

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2014, 06:18:08 AM »
Well said Tigs couldn't agree more and Willy your wrong

It implies instead of hunting young kids we used those afl spots on monkeyball recruits

The decision to recruit graham, thomas and that A Edwards tosser, combined with the loss of the elim final confirmed to me we were going backwards. How the hell is Thomas better than Tuck.

Other clubs are nailing nat fyfe and grundy at pick 18 we are not

Our recruiting has been laughable at best after the first round. They should all be sacked but knowing the RFC they will most likely be knighted
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Offline Phil Mrakov

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2014, 08:03:19 AM »
I found it funny when she said we gave up all of our first round picks for recycled players
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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2014, 10:07:52 AM »
I found it funny when she said we gave up all of our first round picks for recycled players

the basic premise that moneyball has failed is correct

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2014, 11:36:19 AM »
reckon value adding i dont get this calling it moneyball crap has served a very good purpose for us.
it took us from fitzroyesque type proportions in 09 10 to a very competetive outfit in 2012. can people actually remember all the bitching about age gaps and inexperience in the list. ffs there was a very big need to take mature players.

we have gone wrong because we have continued to take too many mature players when the need was no longer there.  we have gone wrong because we continue to target mature players who can improve us immediately but have glaring deficiencies in their games and will have to be replaced themselves. where is the quality.

there is a very real place and need for our club to take mture players but the criteria and needs have changed.

where we have taken mature players has largely been faultless, late nd rookie draft f/a.   we have in the main last yr aside used our 1st 2nd and 3rd rounders on kids. that is as it should be.

what does annoy is we needed a ruckman we got hampson who was a risk imo and 32 pick  should never have been traded not for a player who had 7 yrs and had struggled. but we did it because the need was great what we failed to do was say to ourselves. well hampson is a bit of a risk based on certain criteria we dont have a crash bash ruckman outside of ivan and we need to get one into our system even in taking hampson. where is the junior ruckman of this type.
sam lloyd 24yo at pick 66 decent get but again where is the junior to be developed and replace lloyd in two yrs time.  we do this right across the board. money ball should buy you time  enable you to compete while you  develop quality kids to replace em.

finally so called moneyball is not the real problem or all of the problem  imo  the lack of long term list managment is as much to blame if not more so. taking such deficient players in moneyball also is part of it.

3 or 4 sliding door moments. we take goddard and chapman instead who we did. we take barlow instead the gimp we probably took and oney ball looks like a game you want to play. taking mature players is not the problem taking the right ones is.

Offline Yeahright

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2014, 02:19:04 PM »
the loss of the elim final confirmed to me we were going backwards.

Let's forget the fact we made a final for the first time in years which shows we went forward but lets focus that we lost it which obviously means we went backwards  ::)

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2014, 03:36:57 PM »
the loss of the elim final confirmed to me we were going backwards.

Let's forget the fact we made a final for the first time in years which shows we went forward but lets focus that we lost it which obviously means we went backwards  ::)

That would be accepting or acknowledging mediocrity, something i'm not in the business of doing.

That was putrid last year and any good they had done in the year was effectively wiped out in 120 minutes of footy, resulting in a loss to a 9th placed side.


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Online WilliamPowell

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2014, 03:44:16 PM »
That would be accepting or acknowledging mediocrity, something i'm not in the business of doing.

That was putrid last year and any good they had done in the year was effectively wiped out in 120 50 minutes of footy, resulting in a loss to a 9th placed side.

Edited for accuracy

First half was great 10 minutes into the 2nd half was where it all fell apart  ;D

ED: BTW don't agree with last year being a complete waste but the loss certainly took a fair bit away from the overall result of the year
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Offline yellowandback

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2014, 05:33:43 PM »
the loss of the elim final confirmed to me we were going backwards.

Let's forget the fact we made a final for the first time in years which shows we went forward but lets focus that we lost it which obviously means we went backwards  ::)

That would be accepting or acknowledging mediocrity, something i'm not in the business of doing.

That was putrid last year and any good they had done in the year was effectively wiped out in 120 minutes of footy, resulting in a loss to a 9th placed side.

Well given you've been supporting the Tigers for the past however many years, you are in the business's of supporting mediocrity so what's the difference?  :lol
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Online Willy

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2014, 06:38:44 PM »
Well said Tigs couldn't agree more and Willy your wrong


No, I'm right.
Statements like this one "the team has focused on recruiting proven players...at the expense of drafting top young talent" are sloppy and misleading. Most of the money ball guys cost us SFA and a few are rookies. Hammer being the obvious mistake, Maric being a massive bargain. Some of the older players we got were far from 'proven' either.

I'm not  defending 'money ball' or whatever you want to call it, but this article is uninformed and cheap. This poo has been done death in the media anyway. Author needs to get with the stuffing program. Actually, he needs to quit.

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2014, 07:32:15 PM »
moneyball will really start to kill us as a result of playing these guys ahead of bedding in players who need games under there belts. perhaps we are starting to see that this year or perhaps we wont pay the price until another couple of years
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Offline RedanTiger

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2014, 07:41:41 PM »
Trying to put it in context.
Going back to 2007, well before Hartley arrived, we seem to show some trends of taking older, refried players but only recently at the expense of younger talent.

2007 we took Cotchin, Rance firstly but traded away picks 19 (McMahon) and 35 (Morton) before taking Putt and then taking Gourdis, Collard, Sylvester, Cartledge and Howat as late picks ie PSD onwards.

2008 we took Vickery and Post first but then took Hislop, Thomson, Cousins, Nahas and Gourdis before rookie picks Browne and Gilligan.

2009 we took Martin, Griffiths, Astbury, Dea (for the Raines trade) and Taylor before taking Webberley, Nason and Farmer. Note that Farmer and Nason were trades for Schulz. We then took Grimes, Hicks, Contin, Roberts and Westoff before rookying Polak as the final pick.

2010 we took Conca, Batchelor, Helbig, McDonald before Derrickx and Gourdis as older players. Grigg was traded for Collins and Houli came as a PSD. The rookies were all older types in Jakobi, Miller and Hislop.

2011 we took Ellis, Elton then traded 37 for Maric before picking Arnot and O'Hanlon. Morris was very close to no cost by trading 14 for 15. We chose the delisted A Maric as our first rookie before going for Darrou, Vernier, Turner, Wright and Heslin.

2012 we took Vlastuin, McIntosh, McBean and McDonough before trading pick 76 for A Edwards. Knights and Chaplin were Free Agency pickups. We rookied Petterd, Lonergan and Stephenson as delisted players and finshed with Williams as a junior.

2013 we only took Lennon before trading 33 for Hampson and then choosing Gordon, Lloyd, Banfield, Miles and Thomas as mature players, all bar Lloyd delisted.

So in summary we used only the first couple of picks on juniors in 2007 and 2008. 2009 and 2010 were pretty balanced, but a trend to older late picks was showing. 2011 was mainly juniors with the exceptions of the Marics. 2012 returned to the '09 and '10 style with early juniors and late seniors. Most of these years could be in line with the "moneyball" concept but really 2013 is an outrider with only Lennon as a junior.       

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Re: Has Moneyball backfired for the Tigers? (The Roar)
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2014, 12:58:41 AM »
Well said Tigs couldn't agree more and Willy your wrong

It implies instead of hunting young kids we used those afl spots on monkeyball recruits

The decision to recruit graham, thomas and that A Edwards tosser, combined with the loss of the elim final confirmed to me we were going backwards. How the hell is Thomas better than Tuck.

Other clubs are nailing nat fyfe and grundy at pick 18 we are not

Our recruiting has been laughable at best after the first round. They should all be sacked but knowing the RFC they will most likely be knighted
Plus what sickens me is tom derickx getting a go at the swans and doing ok. We baby these guys for years and discard them only to have another club utilise and grow them. Once again it points to something wrong with RFC player selection and philosophy. Matty white is also anothe prime example. I am disgusted and disappointed over the whole debacle