Author Topic: Richmond list is the 9th oldest  (Read 3723 times)

Offline taztiger4

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Shovelheads - Keeping hipsters off Harley's
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2014, 01:41:03 PM »
take out newman and we are 5th youngest ::) its that simple
what happens if you take out Newy & add in a 18/19 year old , thats more realistic

Offline bojangles17

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 5618
  • Platinum member 33 years
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2014, 04:13:25 PM »
I know it's called manipulating statistics  :shh
RFC 1885, Often Imitated, Never Equalled

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2014, 05:19:16 PM »
the average age of the list is about as useful a statistic as the number of players who have a middle name starting with C
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline yellowandback

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4025
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2014, 01:27:18 PM »
the average age of the list is about as useful a statistic as the number of players who have a middle name starting with C

And we are ranked 12th in the afl for that stat so there!
It's that simple Spud
"I discussed (it) with my three daughters, my wife and my 82-year-old mum, because it has really affected me … If those comments … were made about one of my daughters, it would make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I would not have liked it at all.”

the claw

  • Guest
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2014, 01:46:08 PM »
Don't recognise it  ::) half our old players are depth players that wont't be playing, RFC has one of the youngest lists going around, don't worry about that  :shh

Brett Deledio and Ivan Maric are only a "depth players" and "won't be playing"

Lids will be 28 in April and Ivan will be 29 in January, they are 2 of our older players. Ditto Foley & Chaplin, reckon it's fair to say they will indeed be playing .... A lot  ;D
Oh yeah, pick out the 2 oldest players that will actually be on the field, and call the list old,,, great logic there WP  ::)

Firstly, I never said the list was old. I actually don't think it is.

But...

I was only applying your logic not mine. You are the one who made the sweeping statement half our older players are "depth players that won't be playing". Clearly when 2 of them are 2 of our most important players it is obvious that your statement is not correct

But to take it further and to make the point clearer for you

Of the so called "older players" if you take

Lids
Maric
Newman
Chaplin
Houli
Grigg
Foley
Petterd

They are going to play more games than they miss

Not saying I agree as I would argue the only "locks" should be Lids & Maric.

but of the players I've listed they are going to get games. They got them this year when they weren't deserved not sure it's going to change in a hurry

So I think the argument can be made that your statement of "half our old players are depth players that wont't be playing" is not accurate
to take it further the rest of the regulars are hardly juniors either. in fact we have few juniors who have shown enough to bring into the team. the following players we will be looking at them playing about half the games at the least next yr and not one of em will be under 23.

astbury 24 , batchelor 23 , dea 24, edwards 26,  gordon 25, griffiths 23, grimes 23, knights 28, lloyd 25, hunt 24,  martin 24, miles 23, cotchin 24, morris 26, rance 25, riewoldt 26, thomas 28.vickery 24,

then theres conca 22, a development player
and then the regular juniors
ellis 21, vlastuin 20.
we have just 3 regular players aged 22 or under. and the problem is theres few juniors who have done enough to date.
it only leaves. mcbean 20 mcdonough 21, mcintosh 20, lennon 19, elton 21, arnot 21.

surely a bit of common sense says the above 20 players combined with the 8 named by wp will play the majority of games. its not young and its also played a lot of games. at least 14 100 gamers if i have counted right with plenty more who have played between 50 and 99 games. and a lot of those who have played less than 50 games are mature types older than 22.


the fact is we have an inordinate number of players in the right age bracket 23 plus.  and  over all  the list is helped by the fact we have so few players aged 30 plus,in fact just the one.
we also have many in the right games brackets as well.

we look at age to determine maturity and development. we look at games played to determine experience.we look at both because playing a 25 yr old gordon who has the maturity and physical development but played few games  is very different to playing the  immature and under developed 19 yo lennon who also has played few games..

the overall age of most team lists is not that far apart. probably 1 yr in it or close to 1yr give or take across the board.
its when you do best 22 or best 25 that you see the real difference between building teams and established teams.
look at haw and us at the start of the yr with full lists.
hawthorn ave 23yrs 349 days. 
richmond ave 24yrs 54 days.
hawks had  a fair few 30 yr olds compared to us  so to achieve a younger list they needed younger players in other areas. or more juniors.
come finals
the 22s
haw g/f  26/294 gms ave 136
rich e/f  25/67 gms ave 105  it is exactly where it needs to be to challnge for top 4 both in experience and maturity. our problem is not age and experience it is overall quality.
we played p/a in the elim  look at how close the two teams were age experience wise
 p/a e/f 24/258  ave gms 102.
rich e/f  25/67  ave gms 105.

you have to go back to 2002 and 2003 to find a side that even played in a gf that ave less than 100 gms a player or whose ave age was less than 24 plus yrs old. that was malthouses collingwood.
if we look at history or recent history the last 10 or so seasons there is some very good guides that say your best 25  at the very least have to get to 100gms and be 24 yrs and oilder to even make a g/f.

Offline Judge Roughneck

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11132
  • Sir
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2014, 04:10:06 PM »
Don't recognise it  ::) half our old players are depth players that wont't be playing, RFC has one of the youngest lists going around, don't worry about that  :shh

Brett Deledio and Ivan Maric are only a "depth players" and "won't be playing"

Lids will be 28 in April and Ivan will be 29 in January, they are 2 of our older players. Ditto Foley & Chaplin, reckon it's fair to say they will indeed be playing .... A lot  ;D
Oh yeah, pick out the 2 oldest players that will actually be on the field, and call the list old,,, great logic there WP  ::)

Firstly, I never said the list was old. I actually don't think it is.

But...

I was only applying your logic not mine. You are the one who made the sweeping statement half our older players are "depth players that won't be playing". Clearly when 2 of them are 2 of our most important players it is obvious that your statement is not correct

But to take it further and to make the point clearer for you

Of the so called "older players" if you take

Lids
Maric
Newman
Chaplin
Houli
Grigg
Foley
Petterd

They are going to play more games than they miss

Not saying I agree as I would argue the only "locks" should be Lids & Maric.

but of the players I've listed they are going to get games. They got them this year when they weren't deserved not sure it's going to change in a hurry

So I think the argument can be made that your statement of "half our old players are depth players that wont't be playing" is not accurate

2 of 11; richmond has eleven player aged 26 or older*

Lids and Maric - are the only ones in this 'old' category in the best 18

IMO

If yor break into punt road and steal dimma whiteboard no doubt all 11 are in the starting senior side.
If:

Newman
Chaplin
Houli
Grigg
Foley
Petterd

Are indeed going to "play more games than they miss"

The future is bleak... Ken Hinkley will be laughing for starters.



*true as of last fortnight.

Offline Judge Roughneck

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11132
  • Sir
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2014, 04:28:14 PM »
Don't recognise it  ::) half our old players are depth players that wont't be playing, RFC has one of the youngest lists going around, don't worry about that  :shh

Brett Deledio and Ivan Maric are only a "depth players" and "won't be playing"

Lids will be 28 in April and Ivan will be 29 in January, they are 2 of our older players. Ditto Foley & Chaplin, reckon it's fair to say they will indeed be playing .... A lot  ;D
Oh yeah, pick out the 2 oldest players that will actually be on the field, and call the list old,,, great logic there WP  ::)

Firstly, I never said the list was old. I actually don't think it is.

But...

I was only applying your logic not mine. You are the one who made the sweeping statement half our older players are "depth players that won't be playing". Clearly when 2 of them are 2 of our most important players it is obvious that your statement is not correct

But to take it further and to make the point clearer for you

Of the so called "older players" if you take

Lids
Maric
Newman
Chaplin
Houli
Grigg
Foley
Petterd

They are going to play more games than they miss

Not saying I agree as I would argue the only "locks" should be Lids & Maric.

but of the players I've listed they are going to get games. They got them this year when they weren't deserved not sure it's going to change in a hurry

So I think the argument can be made that your statement of "half our old players are depth players that wont't be playing" is not accurate
to take it further the rest of the regulars are hardly juniors either. in fact we have few juniors who have shown enough to bring into the team. the following players we will be looking at them playing about half the games at the least next yr and not one of em will be under 23.

astbury 24 , batchelor 23 , dea 24, edwards 26,  gordon 25, griffiths 23, grimes 23, knights 28, lloyd 25, hunt 24,  martin 24, miles 23, cotchin 24, morris 26, rance 25, riewoldt 26, thomas 28.vickery 24,

then theres conca 22, a development player
and then the regular juniors
ellis 21, vlastuin 20.
we have just 3 regular players aged 22 or under. and the problem is theres few juniors who have done enough to date.
it only leaves. mcbean 20 mcdonough 21, mcintosh 20, lennon 19, elton 21, arnot 21.

surely a bit of common sense says the above 20 players combined with the 8 named by wp will play the majority of games. its not young and its also played a lot of games. at least 14 100 gamers if i have counted right with plenty more who have played between 50 and 99 games. and a lot of those who have played less than 50 games are mature types older than 22.


the fact is we have an inordinate number of players in the right age bracket 23 plus.  and  over all  the list is helped by the fact we have so few players aged 30 plus,in fact just the one.
we also have many in the right games brackets as well.

we look at age to determine maturity and development. we look at games played to determine experience.we look at both because playing a 25 yr old gordon who has the maturity and physical development but played few games  is very different to playing the  immature and under developed 19 yo lennon who also has played few games..

the overall age of most team lists is not that far apart. probably 1 yr in it or close to 1yr give or take across the board.
its when you do best 22 or best 25 that you see the real difference between building teams and established teams.
look at haw and us at the start of the yr with full lists.
hawthorn ave 23yrs 349 days. 
richmond ave 24yrs 54 days.
hawks had  a fair few 30 yr olds compared to us  so to achieve a younger list they needed younger players in other areas. or more juniors.
come finals
the 22s
haw g/f  26/294 gms ave 136
rich e/f  25/67 gms ave 105  it is exactly where it needs to be to challnge for top 4 both in experience and maturity. our problem is not age and experience it is overall quality.
we played p/a in the elim  look at how close the two teams were age experience wise
 p/a e/f 24/258  ave gms 102.
rich e/f  25/67  ave gms 105.

you have to go back to 2002 and 2003 to find a side that even played in a gf that ave less than 100 gms a player or whose ave age was less than 24 plus yrs old. that was malthouses collingwood.
if we look at history or recent history the last 10 or so seasons there is some very good guides that say your best 25  at the very least have to get to 100gms and be 24 yrs and oilder to even make a g/f.

I don't think it's a bad thing to have several players in the 23-27 category. This means its locked and loaded (  :shh. ) most people should be ready to come good. I would argue Shane Edwards, Riewoldt, rance, cotchin, Martin, morris are proven and are the age were they should still have significant improvement.

The rest are primarily KPP that show ability, have been fpoo developed and coahced;  need time. Mixed wit some speculative latish draft picks; Grimes, Griffiths, Astbury, Vickery, hunt, Gordon, llyod. All would in my best 25.

No doubt more good kids* is always good. It doesn't help when the club drafts one kid in the last time out. Miles. Lennon. #12, McBean, vlastuin, possibly Ellis are all high end ability. The following IMO deserves more seasons on the list than the 'list blockers' in the 'old' .category of the list - Conca, bachelor, Elton, arnot, donuts, mcintosh. We have plenty of plodders than have less upside.


*using the universal categorisation claw system of sorting 'kids' as under23


« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 12:47:07 PM by Judge Roughneck »

the claw

  • Guest
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2014, 12:42:48 PM »
i dont know how many times i have said this but will say it one more time just for those who cant comprehend too well.
i break the list up into 4 categories.

juniors 18 - 21.  why?  well its simple every kid we take we look at for two or three yrsand determine if they can go on with it.  obviously most have to get fit enough and strong enough as well.

development 22 - 24. why?  these are the juniors we have determined can go on with it but are still developing. its very relevant for talls.

mature 25 - 28 why?  these are the blokes who have come right thru our development program and are now entering their prime both physically and in most cases with  experience.

vets 29 plus. why? these are the blokes who may be on the slide a little due to age wear and tear etc but still give good service.some continue to play top footy right to the end. its also a time to look at a player and say hes 29 and its high time  we  get a junior of the same type  on the list and start developing him if we havent done already, its a wake up to start a  succession plan type thing.

finally judge its ideal to get about 25 players into the 23 plus category and 50 -100 plus games category  with half at least having played 100 games or more. we were basically there last yr and certainly there again this yr, and will tick those boxes again next yr.
its been shown those teams who meet these criteria have time and again played in the g/f each yr.

 ive argued for the last two yrs that we no longer had age problems and age gaps. ive bee strong arguing we have too few juniors and that there is no harm in taking some mature/vet types as we have had few. ive also said we have had the right numbers entering the right games played categories. ive also argued that juniors aside and some of em look very iffy  we dont have enough decent quality in key areas or even plain old good consistent players in the top 25..

clearly we have far too many if you like depth players and not enough top end  quality and not enough good consistent players.we have more than enough maturity and experience but that is not enough to get us where we want.we need the talent and real depth to go with these things because atm we clearly dont have enough of either.

Offline Judge Roughneck

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11132
  • Sir
Re: Richmond list is the 8th oldest
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2014, 12:45:07 PM »
i dont know how many times i have said this but will say it one more time just for those who cant comprehend too well.
i break the list up into 4 categories.

sorry for forgetting boss!  :-[

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98259
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Richmond list is the 9th oldest (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2014, 12:42:58 PM »
Our recruiting of mostly kids in this year's drafts has pushed our average list age down one spot to 9th oldest.


YOUR LIST AVERAGE AGE

1. Fremantle 25.40

2. North Melb. 25.35

3. Essendon 24.96

4. Hawthorn 24.84

5. Sydney Swans 24.64

6. Geelong Cats 24.60

7. Carlton 24.45

8. Adelaide 24.21

9. Richmond 24.19

10. Melbourne 23.95

11. West Coast 23.91

12. Port Adelaide 23.61

13. Collingwood 23.61

14. St Kilda 23.42

15. Brisbane 23.36

16. West Bulldogs 23.21

17. Gold Coast 22.90

18. GWS Giants 22.42

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/hawthorn-have-perfect-list-profile-while-fremantle-oldest-list-in-afl-says-latest-data/story-fnelctok-1227149047364

Offline Phil Mrakov

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 8213
  • They said I could be anything so I became Phil
Re: Richmond list is the 9th oldest
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2014, 12:56:43 PM »
Haha Essendon are so old
hhhaaarrgghhh hhhhaaarrggghhh hhhhaaaarrrggghh
HHAAARRRGGGHHHH HHHHAAARRRGGGHHHH HHHHHAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH

Offline The Big Richo

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 3140
  • Keyboard Hero
Re: Richmond list is the 9th oldest
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2014, 12:56:58 PM »
And the 10th youngest.  :shh
Who isn't a fan of the thinking man's orange Tim Fleming?

Gerks 27/6/11

But you see, it's not me, it's not my family.
In your head, in your head they are fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are crying...

Offline Judge Roughneck

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11132
  • Sir
Re: Richmond list is the 9th oldest
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2014, 01:12:06 PM »
Lol norf

Offline tiga

  • Exhaling Carbon in the
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 5547
  • Yes Hampson has taken a mark!
Re: Richmond list is the 9th oldest
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2014, 01:52:54 PM »
Yeah but take Fletch from Bombers and Boomer from North out of the equation, I think you will find that they might drop down the list a bit

Offline Phil Mrakov

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 8213
  • They said I could be anything so I became Phil
Re: Richmond list is the 9th oldest
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2014, 01:53:37 PM »
Fremantle premiership window is closed. Essendon's and Norf's never opened and now they need a rebuild :D
hhhaaarrgghhh hhhhaaarrggghhh hhhhaaaarrrggghh
HHAAARRRGGGHHHH HHHHAAARRRGGGHHHH HHHHHAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH