Author Topic: Richmond and Collingwood in purgatory as dismal AFL form continues (Guardian)  (Read 4032 times)

Offline one-eyed

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Richmond and Collingwood in purgatory as dismal AFL form continues

Jonathan Howcroft
The Guardian
May 9, 2016


The AFL is designed to maximise the relevance of every club in a given season. Almost half the competing teams reach the finals, more still are in the running in August, the gap between best and worst bridged by equalisation mechanisms.

The draft incentivises a cyclical approach to list building, meaning there’s usually something for the stragglers to cling onto as winter bites, be it the carrot of an early pick or the glint of a rough diamond in a development year. Failing that, the draw leans towards historic rivalries guaranteeing pride will often be on the line, even if flag aspirations are not.

It’s not a failsafe model and every year a side or two slips through the cracks. Culprits usually suffer by misjudging their premiership window. This season, Collingwood’s has yet to open, while Richmond’s has firmly closed. It was never more than ajar.

Carlton made it three wins on the trot in defeating arch-rivals Collingwood, while Geelong overcame flag contenders West Coast at Stadium Stadium

Collingwood’s season of perdition was confirmed following Saturday’s defeat to Carlton. In hindsight it began 10 seconds into the opening round when Lance Franklin separated from his direct opponent. The Magpies travel next to the Gabba, then face premiership aspirants Geelong and Western Bulldogs. 2017’s NAB Challenge can’t come soon enough.

The end of Richmond’s relevance to the season can be pinpointed almost to the minute. The Tigers were a puncher’s chance against the undermanned triple-premiers on Friday night and midway through the second quarter landed a combination that pinned Hawthorn against the ropes.

Eleven minutes after the first break Hawthorn’s lead was a then game-high 16 points. Jayden Short stopped the rot and four minutes later Ty Vickery belted the first of two in quick succession to edge the Tigers ahead. The TV broadcast faded from the celebrations to a commercial break. When it returned, Vickery was sat alongside a perplexed Brett Deledio on the interchange bench. The football world went into collective apoplexy at the sight of the game’s lightning rod taking a breather while a major storm brewed. Seven minutes passed before Vickery returned to the fray. The Hawks kicked the last three goals of the half and eventually ran out convincing winners.

Richmond’s rally in the third quarter that saw them jump to a 12-point lead may counter the argument the Tigers lost the match when Vickery was cooling his jets. Nonetheless it only enhances the perception the youthful Hawks were there for the taking and the failure to capitalise on their first-half ascendancy illustrates the muddled thinking and poor communication that has typified Richmond’s season.

At 1-6 and 2-5 the campaigns of Richmond and Collingwood are far from mathematically over but the gap in quality between the top eight and the rest would indicate the finals race should not concern them. That means almost four months of football and a further 16 rounds of irrelevance. This is a worry not only for these two traditional powerhouses but also for the AFL. Four remaining Friday night showpiece fixtures involve one of these sides, including round 20, which pits one against the other. After opening the year with back-to-back crowds in excess of 72,000, Richmond drew just 27,000 in defeat to Port Adelaide and failed to top 50,000 on a Friday night against the Hawks, the lowest for this fixture since round three in 2011.

The battle Richmond in particular faces is constructing a positive new narrative, and then communicating it clearly to supporters so that they remain engaged. No longer ascending, neither are they descending with conviction.

Until a convincing narrative takes hold the vacuum will be filled by negativity and speculation. “Do we give the media the head on a plate they are looking for?” Peggy O’Neal asked rhetorically during a firefighting exercise on ABC Grandstand. “The answer to that is no.” The problem O’Neal faces is that unless Damien Hardwick is offered a long-term rebuild, like Ross Lyon at Fremantle, questions over whether the incumbent is the right man for the job will persist.

Hardwick’s recent extension to the end of 2018 could hardly be more awkward. Two years is not long enough to imply confidence in a rebuild, nor is it short enough to allow his employers to move nimbly. The mooted restructure of the football department may prove sufficient but it may also prove to be window dressing.

Carlton experienced a similar situation last season. Football-wise there was obvious merit to retaining Mick Malthouse but changing tack enabled the Blues to alter the story they had to tell. Importantly it also changed the voices telling it. In the short term club legend Stephen Silvagni was mobilised to reassure and speak plainly. Brendan Bolton has the task longer term, and with the enthusiasm of a golden retriever puppy his delivery is a far cry from his irascible predecessor and one more suited to the sales job required of the role.

Silvagni and Bolton have succeeded in aligning expectation much closer to reality. Supporter discontent and media scrutiny grows when there is a gap between those two positions.

The AFL likes to propagate the fantasy that its equalising measures mean any team can start the season with flag expectations. Supporters inevitably cling to these myths and false hope grows. Hope exploited by clubs in long offseasons. Hope clung to by diehards that glosses over recruitment, coaching and development mistakes until a senior official finally delivers the bad news. AFL clubs are not in the habit of under promising and over delivering.

It was only six years ago that Brendon Gale told Richmond the club had to take its medicine. Starting from scratch again so soon will be an even more bitter pill to swallow.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/09/richmond-and-collingwood-in-purgatory-as-dismal-afl-form-continues

Offline Stalin

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Don't need to start again ...  Find a coach, ruck, full forward, full back couple other bits and pieces  and it may be salvageable.

Roos. 
Zac Clarke. / half decent ruck
Hurley.
Josh Jenkins / Patton.

 :whistle

Silvagni and aligning expectation much closer to reality. Supporter discontent and media scrutiny grows when there is a gap between those two positions. - dan Richardson can give grigg another hug in the bay
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 09:56:36 PM by Stalin »
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Dougeytherichmondfan

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Richmond and Collingwood in purgatory as dismal AFL form continues

Jonathan Howcroft
The Guardian
May 9, 2016


The battle Richmond in particular faces is constructing a positive new narrative, and then communicating it clearly to supporters so that they remain engaged. No longer ascending, neither are they descending with conviction.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/09/richmond-and-collingwood-in-purgatory-as-dismal-afl-form-continues
Haha, great line, but when does a team ever "descend" with conviction, unless he means we're not genuinely of the belief we're on the way down (which I might actually subscribe to).

Don't need to start again ...  Find a coach, ruck, full forward, full back couple other bits and pieces  and it may be salvageable. Roos. Zac Clarke. Hurley. Patton.  :whistle

Supporter discontent and media scrutiny grows when there is a gap between those two positions.
Zac Clarke isn't much better that Hampson IMO, Hurley an obvious (albeit v. unlikely) yes, Patton not a chance in hell (nor do we necessarily need to splash our "war chest" on a position we should have covered for the next 5 years in Reiwoldt?

Suporter discontent has reached is pinnacle as far as I see it. Most of us a resigned to finishing bottom 4, getting a jet and restarting next season (and hoping that this season was an aberration)

Offline Stalin

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Richmond and Collingwood in purgatory as dismal AFL form continues

Jonathan Howcroft
The Guardian
May 9, 2016


The battle Richmond in particular faces is constructing a positive new narrative, and then communicating it clearly to supporters so that they remain engaged. No longer ascending, neither are they descending with conviction.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/09/richmond-and-collingwood-in-purgatory-as-dismal-afl-form-continues
Haha, great line, but when does a team ever "descend" with conviction, unless he means we're not genuinely of the belief we're on the way down (which I might actually subscribe to).

Don't need to start again ...  Find a coach, ruck, full forward, full back couple other bits and pieces  and it may be salvageable. Roos. Zac Clarke. Hurley. Patton.  :whistle

Supporter discontent and media scrutiny grows when there is a gap between those two positions.
Zac Clarke isn't much better that Hampson IMO, Hurley an obvious (albeit v. unlikely) yes, Patton not a chance in hell (nor do we necessarily need to splash our "war chest" on a position we should have covered for the next 5 years in Reiwoldt?

Suporter discontent has reached is pinnacle as far as I see it. Most of us a resigned to finishing bottom 4, getting a jet and restarting next season (and hoping that this season was an aberration)

If Zac Clarke is no good,  you need to find another ruckman as I don't think a flag will b won with Hampson ... And te current mob.

We need two reiwoldt ... The years roll by not sure if Tyrone / Griffs are the chosen ones. Patton and Jenkins are available ...

A top four pick is good but not enough. other team will get better too. Going to require something  more IMHO ... There are several holes on the list and a big bunch of list blockers
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Dougeytherichmondfan

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Richmond and Collingwood in purgatory as dismal AFL form continues

Jonathan Howcroft
The Guardian
May 9, 2016


The battle Richmond in particular faces is constructing a positive new narrative, and then communicating it clearly to supporters so that they remain engaged. No longer ascending, neither are they descending with conviction.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/09/richmond-and-collingwood-in-purgatory-as-dismal-afl-form-continues
Haha, great line, but when does a team ever "descend" with conviction, unless he means we're not genuinely of the belief we're on the way down (which I might actually subscribe to).

Don't need to start again ...  Find a coach, ruck, full forward, full back couple other bits and pieces  and it may be salvageable. Roos. Zac Clarke. Hurley. Patton.  :whistle

Supporter discontent and media scrutiny grows when there is a gap between those two positions.
Zac Clarke isn't much better that Hampson IMO, Hurley an obvious (albeit v. unlikely) yes, Patton not a chance in hell (nor do we necessarily need to splash our "war chest" on a position we should have covered for the next 5 years in Reiwoldt?

Suporter discontent has reached is pinnacle as far as I see it. Most of us a resigned to finishing bottom 4, getting a jet and restarting next season (and hoping that this season was an aberration)

If Zac Clarke is no good you need to find another ruckman as I don't think a flag will b won with Hampson ...

We need two reiwoldt ... The years roll by not sure if Tyrone / Griffs are the chosen ones

A top four pick is good but not enough. Enough other team will get better too. Going to require something more IMHO ...
Hampson is a trier at best, that's not my point. I don't see the worth in brining in a b grade ruckman if we've already got two of them. But that's just my opinion, I'm not that impressed by ZC.

Two reiwoldts would be perfect (and I'm not talking literally), but I can think of inside mids I'd rather spend our money on. And lets not forget, we'll still have to do well to retain all that's worth retaining.

Offline Stalin

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Richmond and Collingwood in purgatory as dismal AFL form continues

Jonathan Howcroft
The Guardian
May 9, 2016


The battle Richmond in particular faces is constructing a positive new narrative, and then communicating it clearly to supporters so that they remain engaged. No longer ascending, neither are they descending with conviction.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/09/richmond-and-collingwood-in-purgatory-as-dismal-afl-form-continues
Haha, great line, but when does a team ever "descend" with conviction, unless he means we're not genuinely of the belief we're on the way down (which I might actually subscribe to).

Don't need to start again ...  Find a coach, ruck, full forward, full back couple other bits and pieces  and it may be salvageable. Roos. Zac Clarke. Hurley. Patton.  :whistle

Supporter discontent and media scrutiny grows when there is a gap between those two positions.
Zac Clarke isn't much better that Hampson IMO, Hurley an obvious (albeit v. unlikely) yes, Patton not a chance in hell (nor do we necessarily need to splash our "war chest" on a position we should have covered for the next 5 years in Reiwoldt?

Suporter discontent has reached is pinnacle as far as I see it. Most of us a resigned to finishing bottom 4, getting a jet and restarting next season (and hoping that this season was an aberration)

If Zac Clarke is no good you need to find another ruckman as I don't think a flag will b won with Hampson ...

We need two reiwoldt ... The years roll by not sure if Tyrone / Griffs are the chosen ones

A top four pick is good but not enough. Enough other team will get better too. Going to require something more IMHO ...
Hampson is a trier at best, that's not my point. I don't see the worth in brining in a b grade ruckman if we've already got two of them. But that's just my opinion, I'm not that impressed by ZC.

Two reiwoldts would be perfect (and I'm not talking literally), but I can think of inside mids I'd rather spend our money on. And lets not forget, we'll still have to do well to retain all that's worth retaining.

There is not that much worth retaining ...

'A' and or 'B' graders
 - rance. Reiwoldt. Deledio. Cotchin. Edwards. Miles

Kids of promise
 - c Ellis, vlastuin

*both out of contract, cause dan Richo is an idiot. Everything else just about should be on the table if requires for the greater good. Yes, midfield is another hole on the list.

I put it to you Hampson is worse than a trier, every time he plays our side looks vastly inferior to the opposition in the ruck , on paper and often in reality  . Like his mate Chaplin. We need a b grade ruckman cause Hampson is c or d ... And a young developing ruck would be nice too ...
Then he grabbed two chopsticks and stuck them in his mouth , pretending to be a walrus

Dougeytherichmondfan

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There is not that much worth retaining ...

'A' and or 'B' graders
 - rance. Reiwoldt. Deledio. Cotchin. Edwards. Miles

Kids of promise
 - c Ellis, vlastuin

*both out of contract, cause dan Richo is an idiot. Everything else just about should be on the table if requires for the greater good. Yes, midfield is another hole on the list.

I put it to you Hampson is worse than a trier, every time he plays our side looks vastly inferior to the opposition in the ruck , on paper and often in reality  . Like his mate Chaplin. We need a b grade ruckman cause Hampson is c or d ... And a young developing ruck would be nice too ...
Gotta have some players coming out of contract at the same time I guess, but I'd agree that Vlastuin probably deserved three years. Obviously C Ellis will be kept.

I'd actually hold onto Ty, Griff, Conca, Astbury (only 1 year) Lambert and Mcbean. The rest from this years crop I wouldn't mind letting go but they won't all leave and none would have any serious currency.

Of those mentioned, I'd trade all if the right deal came up, and I'd sign Ty rather than let him walk. Realistically, what would you think a team might offer for Vickery? I'd struggle to see anything beyond an end of first rounder or a young b grader. Better to take the punt on his development. I know he's 26 now, but big men often don't hit their peak until mid to late 20's.

Offline Stalin

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I don't know the rules

But I think the afl just make up a draft pick and give it to us

If Tyrone leaves to another club as a free agent

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Dougeytherichmondfan

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I don't know the rules

But I think the afl just make up a draft pick and give it to us

If Tyrone leaves to another club as a free agent
Not 100% sure but I think he's a restricted, which means we can match. Which club will offer him more than 500k? We'd match that.

If he signs with Melbourne for 400k and we don't match that, considering his B&F finishes, contract offered, draft selection (which was first round) then we'd be lucky to get an end of second round. Like I said, I'd rather take a punt on Ty. I have, for whatever reason, a soft spot for him. I've had this unwavering faith he'd come good one day. He's most certainly going to prove me wrong, but logically the keep Ty seems a stronger argument than the let-him-walk argument.

Offline YellowandBlackBlood

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I don't know the rules

But I think the afl just make up a draft pick and give it to us

If Tyrone leaves to another club as a free agent
Not 100% sure but I think he's a restricted, which means we can match. Which club will offer him more than 500k? We'd match that.

If he signs with Melbourne for 400k and we don't match that, considering his B&F finishes, contract offered, draft selection (which was first round) then we'd be lucky to get an end of second round. Like I said, I'd rather take a punt on Ty. I have, for whatever reason, a soft spot for him. I've had this unwavering faith he'd come good one day. He's most certainly going to prove me wrong, but logically the keep Ty seems a stronger argument than the let-him-walk argument.
I just can't see a guy like him winning us a premiership, which is the ultimate goal.
To do so, he'll have to suddenly become more physical, take more contested marks and have a better defensive game. One of his goals last week, I just laughed because his laziness actually meant that he trailed out the back so when there was a turnover the ball made it back to him and he was there on his own. That's not the sort of goal kicking that you can rely on to win you a flag. Sure he does kick goals, which is a plus but with his size you'd hope so. At least he is better than Griff at this but mind you, Griff has been moved around from pillar to post covering, the backline, ruck and around the ground as well as forward line and hasn't had the luxury of being left to settle anywhere for a period of time like Ty.
Both are too soft and don't take enough contested grabs for their size. Around the ground marking is such a weak point at our club and it makes all our other weaknesses look worse. I think against Port, we had only one mark from our three big men, Ty, Ivan and the Hamspud. How can you win a game with that stat?
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Offline Stalin

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Richmond fans don't want a flag - that may have taken right years and a lot of hard work

We were able to make te finals In four and I went for a swim with grigg. Terrific. Everything's terrific.
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Offline Diocletian

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The funny thing is your typo "right" years actually works too....
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FJ is the only one that makes sense.

Offline Yeahright

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I don't know the rules

But I think the afl just make up a draft pick and give it to us

If Tyrone leaves to another club as a free agent
Not 100% sure but I think he's a restricted, which means we can match. Which club will offer him more than 500k? We'd match that.

If he signs with Melbourne for 400k and we don't match that, considering his B&F finishes, contract offered, draft selection (which was first round) then we'd be lucky to get an end of second round. Like I said, I'd rather take a punt on Ty. I have, for whatever reason, a soft spot for him. I've had this unwavering faith he'd come good one day. He's most certainly going to prove me wrong, but logically the keep Ty seems a stronger argument than the let-him-walk argument.
I just can't see a guy like him winning us a premiership, which is the ultimate goal.
To do so, he'll have to suddenly become more physical, take more contested marks and have a better defensive game. One of his goals last week, I just laughed because his laziness actually meant that he trailed out the back so when there was a turnover the ball made it back to him and he was there on his own. That's not the sort of goal kicking that you can rely on to win you a flag. Sure he does kick goals, which is a plus but with his size you'd hope so. At least he is better than Griff at this but mind you, Griff has been moved around from pillar to post covering, the backline, ruck and around the ground as well as forward line and hasn't had the luxury of being left to settle anywhere for a period of time like Ty.
Both are too soft and don't take enough contested grabs for their size. Around the ground marking is such a weak point at our club and it makes all our other weaknesses look worse. I think against Port, we had only one mark from our three big men, Ty, Ivan and the Hamspud. How can you win a game with that stat?

Vickery also has the benefit of not having to cover the ground. He's plonked in the F50 and that's it (unless he has to ruck but Dimma tries to avoid this as much as possible). Griff and Reiwoldt are both expected to cover a lot of ground, apply pressure and in Griffs case take rucking duties. So if anything, Vickery should be kicking more goals than he does since he offers nothing else but he's too focused on kicking the easy ones which luckily for him, he's actually a really good kick at goal.

Offline Stalin

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I don't know the rules

But I think the afl just make up a draft pick and give it to us

If Tyrone leaves to another club as a free agent
Not 100% sure but I think he's a restricted, which means we can match. Which club will offer him more than 500k? We'd match that.

If he signs with Melbourne for 400k and we don't match that, considering his B&F finishes, contract offered, draft selection (which was first round) then we'd be lucky to get an end of second round. Like I said, I'd rather take a punt on Ty. I have, for whatever reason, a soft spot for him. I've had this unwavering faith he'd come good one day. He's most certainly going to prove me wrong, but logically the keep Ty seems a stronger argument than the let-him-walk argument.
I just can't see a guy like him winning us a premiership, which is the ultimate goal.
To do so, he'll have to suddenly become more physical, take more contested marks and have a better defensive game. One of his goals last week, I just laughed because his laziness actually meant that he trailed out the back so when there was a turnover the ball made it back to him and he was there on his own. That's not the sort of goal kicking that you can rely on to win you a flag. Sure he does kick goals, which is a plus but with his size you'd hope so. At least he is better than Griff at this but mind you, Griff has been moved around from pillar to post covering, the backline, ruck and around the ground as well as forward line and hasn't had the luxury of being left to settle anywhere for a period of time like Ty.
Both are too soft and don't take enough contested grabs for their size. Around the ground marking is such a weak point at our club and it makes all our other weaknesses look worse. I think against Port, we had only one mark from our three big men, Ty, Ivan and the Hamspud. How can you win a game with that stat?

Vickery also has the benefit of not having to cover the ground. .

he works his backside off ...

thats why he was dragged after kicking two goals in two mins

exhaustion
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Offline the claw

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Hmm so there is not much worth retaining yet we dont have to start again. I'm missing something here right.