Richmond says Jack Dyer's 1932 B&F was wrong

[one-eyed]

Emmett Dunne found some early B&Fs were wrongly recorded.

Apparently, Dyer's 1932 B&F was retrospectively awarded. There was no actual count.

Club now says Dyer only won 5 B&Fs. Same as KB.

Dyer family are angry and plan to challenge the Club's decision.

source: CH7

[Rampsation]

Dont know if true or not but theyve taken b&fs away from other people as well including Vic Thorp and others.

Personally I think its wrong. You cant take awards away like this. The onus should not be on the award winners to prove with Evidence it should be on the club to prove they didnt.and to prove who did win with hard evidence.

This is pretty poor from our administration. There is no need to do be doing things like this.

[WilliamPowell]

The Club has thoroughly investigated this

Please read the statement

https://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2019-11-29/historical-records-amended-after-investigation

[tdy]

I don't see the point in the historical revisionism. Back in the 80s when these were mis awarded the people were still alive to talk about those seasons. Now it's all archaeology. I'd leave it as is myself with an asterix beside the award.

[Rampsation]

The Club has thoroughly investigated this

Please read the statement

https://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2019-11-29/historical-records-amended-after-investigation

But can the club prove that the players didnt win. Its not for the familis of decased players to prove awards won its up to the club to prove they didnt and from tjat statement I dont think thats the case.

[Diocletian]

All seems rather petty & unnecessarily pedantic...

[Assange Tiger 😎]

[one-eyed]

No 1932 best and fairest for Dyer after Tigers investigation

Peter Ryan
The Age
1 December 2019

Richmond have determined that no best and fairest was awarded to club legend Jack Dyer in 1932 after an investigation by their history and tradition committee found that before 1940 the club actually awarded just seven best-and-fairest awards.

Tigers vice-president and premiership player Emmett Dunne conducted the investigation to verify whether best-and-fairest awards were in fact presented in seasons prior to 1940 and only found evidence confirming awards were made in 1928, 1929, 1930, 1935, 1937, 1938 and 1939.

It means Dyer joins AFL legend Kevin Bartlett as a five-time Richmond best-and-fairest winner while there was no evidence to verify that two-time winners Barney Herbert and Hughie James and iconic former captain and coach Dan Minogue were awarded best and fairests in the 1910s and '20s.

The investigation found that best and fairests were legitimately awarded in 1928-29 (Basil McCormack), 1930 (Jack Titus), 1935 (Ray Martin) and 1937-1939 (Jack Dyer).

The club had only retrospectively recognised the other awards in 1988 and 1993 - with the winners listed in the AFL's official media guide - but the research behind what the club describes as a "well-intentioned mistake" at that time did not justify them being awarded.

Tigers CEO Brendon Gale said it was important to note the club was not taking the best-and-fairest awards off the players because the investigation showed they were never awarded in the first place.

There are no existing honour boards recognising the best and fairests that need to be changed and the club remains open to players from that time being recognised as a best-and-fairest winner if evidence can be found that the best and fairests were awarded.

In a club statement the Tigers said: "The investigation included a review of annual reports, media reports from each season and discussions with the next of kin of relevant players in an attempt to locate trophies or other memorabilia that might verify the presentation of a best-and-fairest award in those seasons.

"The investigation was unable to confirm that the club had declared best-and-fairest winners for a number of years and the board has subsequently determined that club records be amended accordingly."

Gale said the decision was only made to maintain the integrity of the club's historical records and no one on the board took any pleasure out of the realisation that those best and fairests could not be verified.

"This has been an exhaustive process that has involved a forensic examination of our history," Gale said. "Where possible we have spoken to families of the players affected to ensure we have explored every avenue possible to confirm the award or otherwise.

"Ultimately the integrity of our historical records is paramount and as such the board took the view that these amendments should be made.

"The players affected will always be an important part of this club’s history but the fact remains that in most of these years there was no best and fairest awarded. Previously, some assumptions about best and fairest winners were made retrospectively that the board did not believe reasonable.

"It is important to stress that the club is not taking away these awards but that it has not been able to confirm that best-and-fairest awards were made in these years.

"Naturally if any evidence comes to light to suggest these awards be reinstated the board would consider those cases, but based on the work done and the information available, we believe these records need to be amended."

Jack Dyer's son Jack Dyer jnr told Seven he was disappointed with the decision but Gale said family members of the other players affected have accepted the evidence shows no awards were made.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/afl/no-1932-best-and-fairest-for-dyer-after-tigers-investigation-20191130-p53flp.html

[Darth Tiger]

The club has done some much so very right.

This just seems a little bit of 'risking head & skin' to me.

Sometimes imperfection is a perfectly acceptable gameplan, that can be embraced.

[Hard Roar Tiger]

Sleeping dogs

[one-eyed]

Rhett Bartlett says the investigation had been ongoing since 2000 (19 years ago!)

Best and Fairest

The below table was researched by Rhett Bartlett and Trevor Ruddell (MCC Deputy Librarian).

Background:
The earliest published list of Richmond’s Best and Fairest winners appeared in the club’s 1969 annual report.
This list stretched back only as far as 1940. The listings after this year may be regarded as very reliable. They were probably based on annual inscriptions on a perpetual trophy or a honor board.

In 1941 the perpetual Vic Thorp Shield was inaugurated and the name of Richmond’s Best and Fairest Player was inscribed on it until 1954.

From 1955 Richmond’s Best and Fairest winners were no longer inscribed on the shield (which was full) but written on the Harry Dyke Honour Board. Therefore, there is an unbroken list of Best and Fairest winners from the beginning of the 1940s.

This list is corroborated by contemporary accounts of the award winners in Richmond’s annual reports and the press. Therefore, there was no issue regarding current list of Best and Fairest from the 1940s onwards.

Richmond’s annual reports from 1969 until 1987 listed Best and Fairest winners only as far back as 1940 (this was corroborated in VFL publications).

In Richmond's 1988 Annual Report, the Best and Fairest list was extended back to 1921 .

In Richmond’s 1993 Annual Report the list was extended further back still to 1911.

Not one of those additions were supported by evidence.

In 2000 research began on the Best and Fairest list history, by Trevor Ruddell (MCC Asst. Librarian), Roland Weeks (Museum Curator), and Rhett Bartlett (Historical Committee member).

Over the next 19 years this research was reviewed by former RFC president Leon Daphne, then Museum curator Ron Reiffel, and members of the Historical Committee.

An overview presentation was made to the RFC Board, who then requested all the evidence to be submitted to the Historical chairman. The chairman reviewed all the evidence, and continued to engage with relatives of all players affected. The chairman's review was then presented to the Board who reviewed the evidence and on November 29, 2019 - the club released a statement advising of the Best and Fairest historical changes.

As a result, the following entries were removed:
1911 Bill Mahoney, 1913 Charlie Ricketts, 1914 Sid Reeves, 1916 Arthur Bettles, 1917 Vic Thorp, 1918 Barney Herbert, 1919 Barney Herbert, 1920 Dan Minogue, 1921 Hughie James, 1922 Mel Morris, 1923 Hugh James, 1924 Vic Thorp, 1925 Tom O'Halloran, 1926 Alan Geddes, 1932 Jack Dyer, 1933 Maurie Hunter, 1934 Ray Martin, and 1936 Martin Bolger.

In 1964, the Best and Fairest Medal was named The Jack Dyer Medal.

Currently, the runner-up medallions are named: Jack Titus Medal (2nd), Maurie Fleming Medal (3rd), Fred Swift Medal (4th), Kevin Bartlett Medal (5th).

Resources:
Important official sources of information of the era include Richmond Football Club’s annual reports and minute books which have been thoroughly examined. The inscriptions on cups and trophies held by the Richmond Football Club Museum have also been consulted.

Chief among the independent primary sources were local newspapers such as The Richmond Guardian, The Richmond Australian and The Richmond Chronicle. These papers have been thoroughly examined as were Melbourne’s sporting and football journals of the era such as The Richmond Football News, The Football Record, The Sporting Globe, The Sport, and The Winner. Daily metropolitan newspapers were consulted as were yearly football magazines and annuals.

This below table only lists those players who received an awarded titled 'Best and Fairest'.

There were other yearly awards (ie: Best All-round, Consistent Play, Best Player), and they are noted in the fourth column.

Example of Voting changes over the years
In 1929, votes were recorded by the opposing captains, in 16 matches. The Interstate and final games not being included.
In 1943, New system inaugurated - 3 non-playing selectors cast votes for best 5 players each game
In 1945, 3 non playing selectors picked best 5 each week.
In 1950, the three non-playing members of the selection committee vote. Five players earn votes for each game.
In 1957 'Richmond awards 15 votes for its best and fairest award each week and Wright averaged 11 votes in each game he played' (The Age)
In 1967 5,4,3,2,1 votes were given for each game by selectors R Dickinson, Basil McCormack, and Jack Titus. The winner was announced at Family Day at Richmond ground
In 1968 - votes were given by non-playing selectors.
The 1974 Best and Fairest votes were counted at a supporter's day at Mornington Racecourse Nov 3 1974
In 1986 - 5,4,3,2,1 system. Votes by 5 members of selection committee
In 2008 five members of match committee cast votes for each of the team's 22 players. Players can receive zero to five votes from each coach (the most being 25 for a match).
In 2015 , all the team's players on match day receive a rating from 0-5 (a joint match committee decision). Votes are not allocated for what the match committee deems as below-average performance.
From 2017, all of the team’s players on match day receive a rating from 0-5 (a joint match committee decision) based on their overall performance. The match committee assessed each player’s offensive, defensive, and contest impacts on the game.
Votes are not allocated for what the match committee deems a below-average performance. The club includes Finals matches in its voting.

Records
Most B+F wins: 5x Jack Dyer (1937-1940, 1946) , 5x Kevin Bartlett (1967-68, 73-74, 77)
Most consecutive wins: 4 x Jack Dyer (1937-1940), 3x Ron Branton (1960-1962)
First B+F win: 'Basil McCormack 1927''
Most top 3 finishes: Kevin Bartlett (8 times), Wayne Campbell (8 times), Francis Bourke (7 times), Dustin Martin (7 times)
(note that I have only been able to source Top 3 results back to 1943)

Year    Place       Winner                                       Votes
1908-20    -    Not Awarded    
1921    -    Not Awarded    (Hughie James received "Best Player of the Season" Oscar Mitchell Cup
                                                (as per 1921 Annual Report)
1922    -    Not Awarded    
1923    -    Not Awarded    
1924    -    Not Awarded    
1925    -    Not Awarded    (O'Halloran did win 'Best All Round player')
1926    -    Not Awarded    (Geddes did win 'All Round player')
1927    1st    Basil McCormack    Trophy
1928    1st    Basil McCormack    Trophy Suit (as per Annual Report)
1929    1st    Jack Titus    5 votes Trophy
   =2nd   Les Gallagher, Basil McCormack    2 votes
   =4th    Jack McCormack, Allan Oakley, Percy Bentley, Stan Ryan,
                        William Benton, Stan Judkins, Jack Fincher    1 vote
1930    -    Not Awarded    
1931    -    Not Awarded    
1932    -    Not Awarded    
1933    -    Not Awarded    
1934    1st    Not Awarded    (Ray Martin wins a lounge-suite for 'Best Player')
1935    1st    Ray Martin    Silver bowl and cut glass set
1936    -    Not Awarded    
1937    1st    Jack Dyer    J. Jones Trophy
1938    1st    Jack Dyer    H.L Roberts Trophy
1939    1st    Jack Dyer    Trophy
1940    1st    Jack Dyer    Prize unknown
1941    1st    Jack Titus    Prize Unknown
1942    1st    Leo Merrett    received the J.H Trophy

For all years see: https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Best+and+Fairest

[mightytiges]

I re-watched the 'Fighting Fury' DVD (club history up until 2003) and it states Dyer won his first B&F in 1932, finished 5th in Brownlow of that year with four best on grounds and played for Victoria as an 18 year old. He missed the 1932 premiership due to doing his knee in round 11. So the DVD would have been based on the 1988 retrospective records going by the Club now.

I would want to ask the Club the following questions:

1. What was the basis for the 1988 'additions' to the B&F records? There had to be some reason and some reference(s) to base these 'additions' on otherwise the Club now is alleging those back then simply made up B&F winners. That's a pretty big accusation.

2. Did the Club in 1988 consult surviving players and officials from the 1920s/30s which we can't do now?

3. What triggered the current investigation to begin in 2000? Who took issue with the B&F records as they were stated? Was it a contemporary from 1920s/30s or someone from more recent times?

4. If the investigation began in 2000, did the Club ask Jack Dyer himself who was still alive at that time?

5. The investigation puts weight on trophies handed out in the 1920s/30s as proof of a B&F being awarded in a particular year. Given the Great Depression of the early-mid 1930s, why is it not possible that a best player was acknowledged by the Club at the time but no trophy awarded because the Club and no individual could afford to buy such a luxury?
It seems odd that there were presentations and even a B&F count in the late 1920s and then it suddenly stops before resuming in the late 1930s. The Brownlow didn't skip those years for instance.

6. If the pre-1940 B&Fs were awarded purely retrospectively in 1988 as the Club now claims and the Club now thinks that's wrong, then does the Club as an act of consistency now take a similar stance with its latest policy of awarding life memberships for all premiership players retrospectively and posthumously as far back as 97 years in some cases?

[mightytiges]

I did a search and found this:

From The Herald, 6 Sep 1932, page 15:

DYER WINS RICHMOND CUP
Jack Dyer, the young follower, has won the cup for the most popular player in the Richmond football team by 13
votes. S. Judkins was second, and J. Twyford third. The cup will be presented at a footballers' night at Hoyts Cinema , Richmond, tomorrow.

[1965]

One of my favourite quotes. I hope posters appreciate the irony.

"History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's dam is the history we make today."

Henry Ford 1916

[one-eyed]

This isn't a politics thread. Stick to the topic, please.