List management

[Andyy]

Even for the most optimistic supporters I think the writing must be on the wall now. Timing your run still means winning games like Carlton and Saints when you have handy leads in the 3rd quarter but we have clearly lost our ability to run out games against even modestly talented teams.

I suspect this is because the oldies are too old and the youngsters are too green or not good enough.

Lots of retirements and delistings should be on the agenda IMO. Even if we stagger the retirements I'd like to see something like this:

2022 retirements
Cotchin
Riewoldt
Edwards

2023 retirements
Lambert
Prestia (would like to negotiate an early retirement here)
Tarrant (going fine now but we need a kid here)

2022 delistings
RCD
Martyn
Aarts
Ross
Nyuon
Cumberland
Stack

Kids who need to have a shot at the expense of older blokes
Miller
Mansell
Rest of the 2021 draftees

Trade bait
Rioli
Castagna
Caddy


Unfortunately not a lot to get excited about IMO, bar Balta and Bolton. Both have flags and might look elsewhere.

[mightytiges]

Yep, we need to rebuild. We're not going to challenge with the current group anymore  .

Prestia could be a forced retirement if he keeps breaking down with soft tissue injuries  .

Caddy is out of contract and will be delisted. He may even retire as it's hard to see any other club picking him up. We're not going to get anything for him in any case.

I don't see Ross or Biggie being delisted. Not that they are the answer but they fill roles for now. I think we'll persist with RCD too. Just because there are others ahead of him that should go.

Stack will depend on his commitment to his footy.

Samson is pushing into delisting territory. He's gone backwards. If he survives it's only because he's a tall.

Retirements: Cotch, Jack, Sheds. (Prestia?)
Delistings: Caddy, Martyn, Aarts, Cumberland.
Trades: depends on what we get in return and who we are chasing.

I don't see us cleaning out the list especially if there's many retirements. Whoever we lose we need to bring in a player via the draft, trade or FA. Go too young and inexperienced and you can hamper development and end up a decade in the wilderness with little to show for it.

[the claw]

Even for the most optimistic supporters I think the writing must be on the wall now. Timing your run still means winning games like Carlton and Saints when you have handy leads in the 3rd quarter but we have clearly lost our ability to run out games against even modestly talented teams.

I suspect this is because the oldies are too old and the youngsters are too green or not good enough.

Lots of retirements and delistings should be on the agenda IMO. Even if we stagger the retirements I'd like to see something like this:

2022 retirements
Cotchin
Riewoldt
Edwards

2023 retirements
Lambert
Prestia (would like to negotiate an early retirement here)
Tarrant (going fine now but we need a kid here)

2022 delistings
RCD
Martyn
Aarts
Ross
Nyuon
Cumberland
Stack

Kids who need to have a shot at the expense of older blokes
Miller
Mansell
Rest of the 2021 draftees

Trade bait
Rioli
Castagna
Caddy


Unfortunately not a lot to get excited about IMO, bar Balta and Bolton. Both have flags and might look elsewhere.

Geez and i thought i could be brutal.

Agree on Cotchin, Riewoldt and Edwards retiring at seasons end.
Not so sure about your 2023 retirements especially prestia Lambert. When fit these two still produce the goods but i acknowledge they have struggled to get on the park in recent seasons.

Delistings again im not sure i want to see how the season unfolds before chopping RC-D, Cumberland and Stack.Dont see Aarts Ross and Martyn making it but am prepared to give  Nyuon  a bit more time though i have my doubts.

Cannot see anyone offering anything for Castagna and Caddy we could try to trade but if no takers would delist. One i would put here is McIntosh.

Rioli we could get somthing for i suppose but they are not going to do it.

Seasons end
Retire - Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards.

Delist - Castagna, Aarts, Caddy, Martyn. Depending on how many we think is right to cut we could do a coupe more here.

[Andyy]

Prestia has played 18 games in the last two years. He's contracted until end 2024. I'd give him another year and if he still not getting on the park be asking him to hang them up.

Lambert has hip issues - usually we see very poor outcomes long term with hips. It's cost him games in 2021, already again in 2022, and he will be 32yo at the end of 2023. I'd be surprised if the fanbase is hollering for another contract.

As for the delistings I think it goes without saying that if any of them pull a finger out we keep them but so far nobody on that list of mine has done anything to warrant ongoing optimism. RCD was a first round pick, elsewise nothing. Stack has talent but no discipline, which won't cut it. Biggie can't hide behind his height anymore. The rest are just vanilla busts.

Didn't realise caddy's contract is up. He should just play vfl. Castagna I wouldn't delist - he's worth trading for sure. Rioli too. Kmac I know you don't like him, I do, but also don't mind if he's on the table.

[Diocletian]

Why are people delisting Cumberland all of a sudden? Like to see how he goes in the seniors first...

...and Ryan's a project ruckman ffs...he's going to be given more than just two years...will probably get at least 4 and there will be plenty of ups & downs along the way like their usually is with those types.......

[crackertiger]

Caddy will get retired/delisted. No other club will want him.

[MintOnLamb]

Can we trade Lynch for something?

[Knighter]

Even for the most optimistic supporters I think the writing must be on the wall now. Timing your run still means winning games like Carlton and Saints when you have handy leads in the 3rd quarter but we have clearly lost our ability to run out games against even modestly talented teams.

I luv these sort of threads.

If another club happened to read them they would pee themselves silly at some of the suggestions. No one is giving anything for Castagna or Caddy

Also its pretty obvious you've got no idea when you are nominating Biggy and RCD for delisting. Biggy is going very nicely indeed.

[FooffooValve]

I'll be surprised if this isn't Lambert's last year.

[the claw]

Not 100% sure as i did the exercise ages ago but across all teams the average number of changes each year is close to 7?.

Only time clubs seem to dump a pile of players is when they start from scratch. Take Hardwicks first season. At the end of 2009 we cut 13 players.
5 were traded or retired and we re rookied one in Polak who had the head injury so in effect 12 new faces.

I don't believe we are going to be dumping 12 players its a different situation and i also believe if you clean out all the experience in one go then you end up in the wilderness for ever trying to rebuild culture and know how.

So lets make a starting point and say we will probably delist trade retire 7 or 8 players at seasons end. Its a simple who are the 8 who should could go first.
Its also about asking who are definate keepers and who are okay but expendable blokes we think we need to upgrade a bit on. Your also asking how much more time under covid circumstances do the kids need.

three categories

Delist/Retire/Trade at seasons end.
Retirements

Edwards retire age 33 and he looks like the game has caught up. This is something that has been happening for a few seasons now.  in Bolton  and maybe  Sonsie  we have him covered.

Cotchin retire age 32 next week. Like Edwards the poorer performances are out numbering the better ones and at times he looks shot.This has been the case for a bit now. We need mids and we need some good ones and we need some big ones in particular. We are all asking though who is coming thru who is a like for like type of mid.

Riewoldt retire age 33. Not sure on JR because we dont have any kids coming thru in his role. So he won't be taking games off anyone.
He could be good cover for another season lets see how this year pans out. Club needs to target key fwds and possibly a mature one as well even if he does not  retire.

Prestia 29yo If his body does not come good this year he may well say enough is enough. Like to keep and hope the injuries get better because he is one of the oldies when fit who still performs at a very high level. Again where is the very good inside player to replace him.

Lambert 30yr old. Like Prestia its a concern with his hips it could well be the end and taken out of his hands.But its the Prestia situation again.

Martin 30yr old Love this bloke but who could blame him if he retired. May not be the greatest defensive player going around but what an offensive pick a team up and drag it along player he has been. We desperately need another big powerful inside out player with hurt factor  like Dusty.

 A terrible situation for us would be if all 6 went in one go. Imo  its not that far fetched because of the circumstances,  it could happen.

Allowing for three of them to go this year is being realistic imo.

Possible trades

Rioli  25 yr old. As critical as i have been of him   not sure about this. He would have some value and we do have his position well covered moving fwd.
Would love to see how he goes on a wing. He has been a lot better since moving back and perhaps the upwards trend will continue. Would only trade atm if we are after a high pick and he can help us get one. He is not in the bottom 8. Am loath to get rid of anyone in the 24 to 28 age  bracket atm  unless they are very poor.

If we had a more athletic ruckman showing good signs on the list who is ready to play id be tempted to offer up Soldo but we dont so its pointless atm.

Delist
 
Caddy 29yo is 30 this year and no one is taking on a 30yr old unless its a super star and hes not. Probably not our worst but his papers have been stamped.

Aarts 27yo out and out battler is a good vfl standard player just not good enough for AFL.

Castagna 25yo sorry but just doesnt have the skill set for the game. If players like Clarke, Rioli Jr, Cumberland even Sonsie until he becomes a mid at seniors, cannot force him out then we are in a world of pain in this area. Imo the coaches have their heads in the sand with Castagna.

There's 6 just there but if its the average of 7 we do allowing for say a trade a f/a  and 5 picks then one more has to go.

Probably from the following

McIntosh 28 really want more than a defensive run the lines player who has little impact on the wing with average skills.Needs to be reinvented and if that can't be done then id delist already we have likely looking wingmen needing games.

Martyn only 21 but worried about some of his attributes. Gotta remember he was drafted in 2019 and his first two seasons have been terribly affected by the covid outbreak.
I lean towards giving kids around this time a bit of extra time and would rather target blokes like McIntosh,
 Parker who imo we need to have better than although they can be servicable at times.

Ross is only 21 as well but he has 31 games behind him now and on that body of games i have grave concerns about him.
Thats another 4 possibilities.

Definate keepers for now.

Well i lean towards another year for 99% of the juniors 18 - 21
Banks, Brown, Clarke, Cumberland, Dow, Gibcus, Mansell, Nyuon, Ralphsmith, M Rioli, Ryan, Sonsie, Stack, with only Ross and Martyn in my gun sights.

Clearly there are some players like Balta Bolton Vlastuin etc who are must keeps going fwd.

I also think its make or break for RC-D 22YO. He needs to show consistency not just week to week but thru games, he has to stay involved.
It is year 4 and he is past just offering up little bits here and little bits there. As a club we cannot wait forever.
If he can give us say 18 -  20 disposals, 8 contested, 4 or 5 clearance 5 tackle games consistently then he's where he needs to be for a 4th yr player imo.

[Assange Tiger 😎]

The complete lack of key forwards coming through is agitating. Makes it hard for the 2's to have a proper structure. Surely we could have binned the idea of drafting our 23rd half back flanker and got in a KPF. Assuming we will trade for one or have a dip in free agency.

[Knighter]

We had key forwards in Chol and CCJ who were showing some promise

Our decision to overpay for the likes of Lynch and Prestia and continue to recycle hacks like Castagna, Aarts, Caddy et al together with refusing to retire our veterans like Riewoldt & Cotchin meant we had no money to hang onto the the likes of CCJ and Chol.

We are now paying for arrogant and short sighted list management decisions during the 4 years from 2017 to 2020

[Rampsation]

Maybe everyone has to start thinking about whether or not sending Dusty to Sydney is a good idea trade wise. We have too many oldies, not enough youngsters and very little in the middle. Im one who thinks we should consider it depending on what Sydney or GWS offer in terms of players or picks.

In terms of delistings Im looking at Aartz, Castagna, Martyn and Caddy. I dont think theyre worth anything draft pick wise.
We need to transition out three retirements for me Cotchin, Edwards and Riewoldt. Hopefully Lambert can stay on and Prestia too. We need to keep some senior guys. I would keep everyone else and go the draft and whatever we could get fir Dusty. Remembering Dusty will be 31 next year. If we want to cash out its this year or never.

[the claw]

We had key forwards in Chol and CCJ who were showing some promise

Our decision to overpay for the likes of Lynch and Prestia and continue to recycle hacks like Castagna, Aarts, Caddy et al together with refusing to retire our veterans like Riewoldt & Cotchin meant we had no money to hang onto the the likes of CCJ and Chol.

We are now paying for arrogant and short sighted list management decisions during the 4 years from 2017 to 2020

Nope even in that we hedged our bets both half ruckmen half fwd but not quite either imo. Laughable that we considered them possible permanent key fwds and that they would become very good ones.


We have done it a bit over the years as well hedging the bets.
Neither were ever out and out key forwards.
Neither could demand a regular game in front of Nankervis and later Soldo as ruckmen  and both are still today as forwards miles behind Riewoldt and Lynch and are more like ruckmen who rest fwd.
They were never ever going to solve our key fwd problems. They didnt  leave  for money although im sure they got more at their new clubs BUT FOR OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT GET A GAME.

Imo in this it has been the failure not just 17 to 21  to fail to invest in GENUINE young key forwards but the entire tenure of Hardwick.
When we have drafted talls to play fwd it has been mostly the half fwd half ruck types as well.

When we have drafted actual Genuine kpps we have done fairly well.

From 2009 to 2021 i count just 4 GENUINE key fwds being drafted if i include Griffiths who was a kpf when drafted but became more effective as  a ruck/fwd. others were Astbury who became a kpd early in his career so knowing this it should have been clear to take another kpf.
Reece McKenzie who was taken at pick 77 big chance he was going to fail with such a speculative pick, and Balta who we tried to turn into a key defender because we had been almost as negligent in taking kpd's.

Thats the 4 in 13 years it is little wonder that we went and got Lynch and that we have no young key fwds coming thru.



Ruck fwds we took under Hardwick and remember we had Vickery taken in 2008 at pick 8 also a ruck/fwd were, Elton, McBean, CC-J, Chol as a rookie and ryan. For us taking half ruck half fwds has not worked out we have not found a front line ruckman or a front line fwd out of any of them. What we have got is mostly duds who were again half ruck half fwd but not quite either.



If you want to you can do the same sort of exercise for quality inside and bigger bodied mids. There was reason why we went and got Prestia or had to target a player like him and we all know why.

[the claw]

The complete lack of key forwards coming through is agitating. Makes it hard for the 2's to have a proper structure. Surely we could have binned the idea of drafting our 23rd half back flanker and got in a KPF. Assuming we will trade for one or have a dip in free agency.

Have mentioned this before as well. the actual age of the entire vfl set up makes it very hard to win.

The magoos are screaming out for Mature types to lead and protect the kids.

Last time i looked give or take the odd player we have Morris and two 24 yr olds and then every one is 22 or under apart from when older afl listed players are down there which would only be Caddy and Parker so far this year.

Its one of the reasons why i had hoped we could get players like Skinner Schlensog Dunstan Finlayson even to provide the leadeship along with Caddy Aarts Parker and provide cover when injuries did hit if kids were not ready.