Author Topic: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist  (Read 38205 times)

Online Hard Roar Tiger

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2022, 02:22:43 PM »
I think we are placed somewhere between where the Hawks were in 2018 and where the Cats were 2 years ago.

This year has been a step change forward for younger players Ben Miller, MRJ, Sonsie, Cumberland and Gibcus who was sensational for a first year key position player.
I will get howled down but Jack Ross looked the part in the final and also vs Cats so we know he can play it’s now reducing the gap between best and worst. Think Tom Atkins and let’s watch this space.

We have Tom Brown, Sam Banks and Judson Clark cooling their heels in the 2’s so lets see what they can deliver.

The spine is still good and there’s no point worrying about ageing players - Geelong don’t and look where that has landed them. I think the forum should shift a little more optimistically  toward supporting our veterans with Grimes, Jack, Cotch, Meatie, Nank, Lynch, Pickett and Tarrant all more than capable of a strong 2023. There’s 20 flags between that crop of players - it’s once a generation stuff in term of talent being matched by output.

The middle tier is solid but where I see the gap in our age profile with Graham, Baker, Balta, Bolton, Vlas, Shorty and Rioli giving us a good core group but a few within that group haven’t come on as I’d hoped - I worry players like Shorty, Vlas and Graham are a bit up and down still - not as dependant as I would have assumed

Positionally, our issue is in the midfield with Taranto, hopefully a breakthrough year from Ross and Sonsie continuing to improve helping to provide depth.

Our back up key forward and backs is a bit shallow but we have versatility with Balta and Gibcus which helps.

Overall, the list shapes up as less of an issue than our coaching which I think went backwards. For a coaching group that prided itself on learning from mistakes, there were a heap that were reoccurring with last Thursday’s finish to the game becoming a perfect example of what we are at as a team.
“I find it nearly impossible to make those judgments, but he is certainly up there with the really important ones, he is certainly up there with the Francis Bourkes and the Royce Harts and the Kevin Bartlett and the Kevin Sheedys, there is no doubt about that,” Balme said.

Offline the claw

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #76 on: September 05, 2022, 06:37:30 PM »
I don’t thinks so, I believe your arguing with yourself by confirming a lot of those mentioned continued to play in sides that used them to mentor their kids and showed more improvement than Hawthorn ,  letting Hodge leave especially ,Mitchell , Lewis etc go was a mistake imo. A lot of the more highly rated players who left Hawthorn had more to give , bad mistake by Kennet and Clarkson

I think you overlook the fact they still had a lot of experienced players there to do the mentoring. Of course most sides after 2015 were going to improve more than the Hawks what did you expect it was an end of a dynasty and they had a whole pile of vets nearing the end.
They had so many experienced players they had to push some out the door who still had a little bit to offer. FFS Mitchell was 34 when he went to WCE and he had one underwhelming season, the deal was they would give him the season and he would then take on an assistent coaches role with them. It was a way to ensure they got the assistant coach they wanted.

Hodge was 33 fmd he played just two season with Brisbane and they were well down on his best. Of course Brisbane were happy to get his experience, they had made finals just once since they lost the flag in 2004 and that was 2009. They had young players coming thru who needed a mentor. The Hawks didnt they had more than enough blokes with finals and premierships just look at the plethora of experienced players on their list still in 2018 to do the mentoring.

T Mitchell, Shiels, Smith, Omeara, Henderson, Gunston,Impey Bruest, Roughead, Burgoyne, Stratton, Frawley, Puopolo, McEvoy, Duryea, O'Brien, Ceglar, Schoenmakers, Rioli.

That not enough premiership players for you.that not enough experience for you. Mate Hawthorn did what they had to do and like all clubs who spend significant time at the top and eke out the last drop from their better players they go into decline.

It will happen to us and of course we will have supporters lamenting the lack of experience.

Hawthorn was not sacking older players left right and centre as you suggest, they were eased out over a period of time 7 seasons.. Yep there was a few who thought they had something to offer still and ended up at other clubs good on em that happens all the time as well.
For mine the only one who was a mistake was Lewis.

When you say look at how Hawthorn went after cleaning them out. Well that implies they got rid of all of their experienced players real quick and it is just patently wrong. It also implies they were not having to go into rebuild.

In 2015 the end of their Dynasty after three in a row, a Dynasty that can be traced back to 2004 the average age of their premiership side was 27yrs and 303days. It was a very old team. Yet 7 yrs on they still had 4 players this year who played in that team obviously all were in their 30's.

Are we any different well lets go back 5 years to the end of 2017. It is a closer time line but the major difference is it was the start of our dynasty not the end.
 we have lost 10 players from the 17 flag. a younger team by two yrs by the way. it was aged  25yrs 43 days.
Who remain Martin 31, Grimes 31, Cotchin 33, Riewoldt 34, Prestia 30, Nankervis 28, Vlastuin and McIntosh both will be 29 basically at the start of next season Broad will be in the same boat will be 30.

Rioli 25,  Graham 25 and Castagna 26 could well be the only ones left in two seasons time the same time line as Hawthorn. It is not all that different to Hawthorn. Id call it  natural attrition thru age..

No they did not just throw all the experience out in a rush. What has happened is they have not had the same quality coming in that went out and we are the same.






Offline camboon

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2022, 07:52:17 PM »
You miss the point , age and experience as a player does not make a leader. The only players at Hawthorn  that showed leadership and not at the same level were McEvoy and Roughhead

People like Hodge guided Brisbane to become the competitive side they are today, Mitchell picked to coach, Lewis helped Melbourne and is picking the coach at Essendon.
By moving them all on instead of one at a time led to them lose their a lot of soul and they are dwelling at bottom for years now as they lost true mentors
So who are the genuine leaders at Richmond, the ones who lead by actions and words, two go this year in Lambert  and Edwards and I don’t believe we should push more out before others step up.

Offline the claw

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2022, 08:20:41 PM »
Reckon we will have to agree to disagree.
Personally think your reading more into those departures than is warranted.

A good example is our Shaun Grigg everyone knew he had an astute footy brain when he retired. Why didn't we offer him a role"
there are several very simple reasons he needed to get outside our system and learn about other systems and there was just not a place for him.
Always a difficult situation having a player suddenly thrust into the role of coaching his mates.

Mitchell and Hodge were no different. They were not going to coach at Hawthorn and that is what Mitchell in particular wanted to do he had to do an apprenticeship.

Hodgey wanted to go around for another season he did not want to hang up the boots a bit like us with Houli he wanted to go around again.
Brisbane were happy to give him the extra years as they needed someone with his experiences. Hawthorn did not. Fob it off if you like but the list of players i named still there were part of a very successful culture its like you saying oh well we won't miss Lambert or Houli they had nothing to offer anyway. Your saying that about the players who remained.

Instead of admitting that hey maybe ive got this wrong your diverting from the facts. Hawthorn had an ABUNDANCE of experienced players still at their club who continued to mentor younger players.

As i said i think we will just have to agree to disagree.

Offline camboon

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2022, 08:36:55 PM »
I will let Hawthorns results since they left and the lack of talent stepping up back my argument

Offline the claw

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2022, 09:39:09 PM »
I will let Hawthorns results since they left and the lack of talent stepping up back my argument

Well will you do the same when the cotchins Riewoldts etc are all gone as well.

Will say again im shocked your expectations of them doing well and not bottoming out after so long at the top really has me dumbfounded.
Which direction did you really expect them to head having been deprived of early picks for so long with so many older players getting them to their third flag.
Their lack of talent stepping up like us comes from being near the top every year. The top quality is usually gone when it comes to the draft
. They also paid a pricefor trading good picks at the end of a dynasty for players like i suppose Tom Mitchel and in particular Wingard.
When it was clear they had to go into full on rebuild.
We are at the end of our Dynasty it looks like we are going down the same path.

Bottom line is you are in denial. You won't admit they had a shedload of experienced players at their club when Hodge mitchell lewis went back in 2016 2017
and then when you are confronted with the players who were there you fob those players off as not being any good and poor mentors.

Truth is 17 of the 22 players who played in the 2015 g/f played into their 30's for Hawthorn. They werent cutting players willy nilly they were getting as much as they could out of them for as long as they could.
Maybe there is a lesson there about hanging onto players for too long rather than getting rid of them too soon.

The 5 who did not get to 30 were
Duryea left at the end of 2018 for better opportunity i believe writing was on the wall.
B Hill had issues with wife wanting to go home Hawthorn accomodated the 23yo at the end of 2019. As soft as they come was no loss.
C Rioli had two injury years and retired at age 29 at the end of 2018. I think this came as a surprise.
Shoenmakers hung up the boots at age 27 in 2018.
Suckling went to WB 2015 aged 27 can only assume he wanted out for his own reasons.

What the above shows is players retiring with a couple being pushed as new players came in and what were premiership players starting to drop off too much. It is very much spread over 7 seasons having started from a base of a very old team.

Offline camboon

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #81 on: September 06, 2022, 08:06:50 AM »
Hawthorn are an example of how not to do it where Geelong and Sydney on how to do it .
I hope Richmond transition and not dump our older players and give them the respect they have earnt
I’m not sure why people who don’t agree with you are delusional though , is that because people who have different opinions to you should be forced to agree to your thinking.

Offline one-eyed

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #82 on: September 06, 2022, 07:57:54 PM »
Updated - Those remaining out of contract:

RCD, Martyn.

Rookies: Stack, Aarts, Biggie, Colina.

Retired: Caddy, Lambert, Edwards, Parker (rookie).



Offline Andyy

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2022, 08:21:51 PM »
Updated - Those remaining out of contract:

RCD, Martyn.

Rookies: Stack, Aarts, Biggie, Colina.

Retired: Caddy, Lambert, Edwards, Parker (rookie).




Martyn has to be cut surely. Aarts and Stack too - neither have proven to be anywhere near best 22 or consistent/committed enough.

RCD I would keep given his VFL form seems to have become consistently better. Collina still very early days. Biggie maybe keep as a depth/development option as KPD.

Offline Assange Tiger 😎

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2022, 08:26:09 PM »
I thought Stack signed a 1 year deal? I think everyone there has reason to be worried. I'd assume the giant bloke will get another year, haven't seen him play so cant comment on his progression
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Offline Andyy

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2022, 08:42:20 PM »
I thought Stack signed a 1 year deal? I think everyone there has reason to be worried. I'd assume the giant bloke will get another year, haven't seen him play so cant comment on his progression

I'm sure they're likely to all be in doo-doos but if we are trading picks for Taranto +/- Hopper we might not draft as many kids, so IMO it's worth keeping someone like RCD and Biggie.

You'd think another club would pick up RCD quickly - high pick and showing some VFL form, good size etc. I'd rather keep him than use some sort of rookie or supp pick on the next Aarts.

Offline Tiger Khosh

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2022, 08:43:47 PM »
Think Jon Ralph mentioned in his article today that stack will sign a new deal. Must be a delist and rerookie type deal as I don’t think well have many spots left on the primary list of they do manage to get both TT and hopper.

Offline Andyy

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #87 on: September 06, 2022, 08:47:52 PM »
Think Jon Ralph mentioned in his article today that stack will sign a new deal. Must be a delist and rerookie type deal as I don’t think well have many spots left on the primary list of they do manage to get both TT and hopper.

I'm OK with this. Surely last chance saloon though.

Offline Tigeritis™©®

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #88 on: September 06, 2022, 09:07:01 PM »
Guys, just my opinion but our trade value sits with RCD (what a shame he doesn't have the grit we need has all the tools but doesn't seem to have the mental toughness), Soldo (a lot of clubs would pay for a tap ruck who can go forward especially GWS where Kingsley would value him)), Martyn (he has not cracked it and is well behind on the half back line), Ralphsmith (young and impressive one we really wouldn't want to loose but he would be a valuable get for many sides), Stack (just hasn't reached his potential and may have some appeal across in WA), Aarts (I thin k he will be part of our clean out and may end up in Qkld for very little return ) and dare I say it Short (yes I know he is a B&F winner but you have to give something to get something and he would be very appealing to many as an attacking Midfielder/Half back) ... expect some rockets coming my way on some of these!!
RCD - agree 100% - needs to go and try and get a gig somewhere else hopefully a change of scenery can help his career I wish him the best. I don’t think he has it though.
Soldo - can go too and I also think we may get some interest for him.
Martyn - maybe keep for VFL and depth but I wouldn’t be upset if he gets traded or delisted.
Ralphsmith - keep - I think this kid could be a very handy wingman we will need Pickett is old and won’t last long in the game and I think he will be an excellent player from what I’ve seen so far.
Stack - keep - this kid could be anything. I’d hate to see him play good anywhere else. That probably sounds terrible but I think he should stay a Richmond man.
Aarts - can go - or keep him for VFL or as depth player
Short - interesting idea but can’t see it happening because of his last contract but I wouldn’t be against it But if he’s the type of clubman I think he is then probably not a great idea trading those types can destroy the glue that binds the club. Just not a great idea to trade those type of players IMO.
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Online Hard Roar Tiger

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Re: List Management: Keep, Trade, Delist
« Reply #89 on: September 07, 2022, 01:35:08 PM »
Great post Tigeritis
“I find it nearly impossible to make those judgments, but he is certainly up there with the really important ones, he is certainly up there with the Francis Bourkes and the Royce Harts and the Kevin Bartlett and the Kevin Sheedys, there is no doubt about that,” Balme said.