Victorian Election

[Infamy]

Thing is if the desal plant is going ahead then the North-South pipeline was never needed. Droughts happen, it's not the first and won't be the last.

How often has Victoria experienced a decade plus long drought before though? The desal plant won't be operational until 2012 at the earliest. Yep the drought breaking rains have finally arrived but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Before this year we just couldn't wait and pray for rain as the dam levels fell below 30% full. No one was predicting the end of the drought 18 months ago. Most of the criticism back then was why hadn't another dam been built since 1983 (Thompson). Based on the current rainfall and rising dam levels you could argue those wanting another dam were wrong as well and even the desal plant itself isn't needed. IIRC the desal plant will only be used when dam levels are below 65% so it won't be used all the time either. In any case the North-South pipeline is built now and even if you believe it was not needed closing it down just confirms the money spent as wasted. Closing it down doesn't reverse time nor get the money back. The pipeline is built so why not be pragmatic about it and make it (more) useful and add pumps to send excess Melbourne water up north where during a drought it is needed in our state's foodbowl. Melbourne will have the desal plant operational by then.

They aren't tearing the thing up, just shutting it down, its not exactly difficult to start using a pipe again.
The power requirements to keep it running are astronomical and it's just not needed, especially with all this rain. I don't get what the big deal is.

[10 FLAGS]

You dont need hindsight to know that the Mitchell River should be damned. Even in the drought years it was being flooded.

[Penelope]

this state was bankrupted by labor before Kennett came in. Kennett had no choice but he went to far- especially on health and hospitals. If it wasnt for Kennett, Victorians en masse would be lining up at Soup Kitchens today. As for Electricity, Gas and Water prices, it was the role of state government to control the privatised companies as far as increases were concerned. Brumby and Labor failed to control them and that was the end of the penny section.

In a free market it is real competition and the cost efficiencies that result from it that is meant to control prices; not the state. The problem with Victoria's privatisation of utilities and public transport is there was/is no competition. Each company was virtually set up as a monopoly over a specific region of Melbourne/Victoria rather than them going head to head. Take public transport - Connex was given the south-east and Hillside the north-west. How the hell was that creating competition?! No wonder it fell over and Connex took over the whole system. This lack of competition and choice leads to  publicly listed companies being answerable first and foremostly to their shareholders at the detriment of their customers. That's why as the public cut back on their usage of say electricity, the companies jacked up these BS service charges so they maintained/increased their profits, share price and dividends to shareholders. Way to encourage the public to not waste our energy resources  . Like all the banks, all the utility companies are all the same and us consumers/customers are now considered more of a necessary nuisance that can be screwed with little all threat of a backlash as there's bugger all real choice for the customer to take their business elsewhere. Add to this the CEOs and directors are then rewarded with massive payouts linked to the company's shareprice to further encourage these anti-customer practices. Privatisation of basic services was promised to lower prices via gains in efficiency in delivering these services without the need of a bloated state (government) bureaucracy but the complete opposite has happened  .

This why the selling off publicly listed utilities is a farce.
The bottom line of any company is profit and shareholders. How anyone could believe that privately owned utilities in largely monopolies, or close to it, could ever provide cheaper/better services is beyond me.

A few years ago during a particularly cold winter in the US they had all sorts of supply troubles with electricity and gas.

The problem was the existing plants were running at near capacity for a few years, yet it was not econimically viable for the companies to invest in building new plants, even though they were needed. Public owned utilities don't have these sort of constraints hanging over them, those that still exist that is.

[Carvels Ring]

i dont like this election result at all, and i vividly remember the way kennett ripped the heart out of my community in the 90s. 

However i aint gonna jump up and down and bag bailleu at this stage.  they won the election, they need to be given a chance to show us what they can do and govern.

all govt these days is of the centre right, both lib and lab, so it wont be especially different.

[Loui Tufga]

Thing is if the desal plant is going ahead then the North-South pipeline was never needed. Droughts happen, it's not the first and won't be the last.

Sorry infamy but the North South pipeline was running full tilt for the most part of winter! Even through the major flood's in September they were still releasing the alloted amount out of Eildon when The Goulburn river was at major flood level and threating townships down stream!! Labour was doing everything the could to get the water to Melbourne before the election. King Teddy won allot of votes in saying he would shut it down and he has already repaid the faith by doing so.

[Tigeritis™©®]

You dont need hindsight to know that the Mitchell River should be damned. Even in the drought years it was being flooded.

yes yes yes.  A dam wouldve been cheaper than a desal plant.

[Infamy]

Thing is if the desal plant is going ahead then the North-South pipeline was never needed. Droughts happen, it's not the first and won't be the last.

Sorry infamy but the North South pipeline was running full tilt for the most part of winter! Even through the major flood's in September they were still releasing the alloted amount out of Eildon when The Goulburn river was at major flood level and threating townships down stream!! Labour was doing everything the could to get the water to Melbourne before the election. King Teddy won allot of votes in saying he would shut it down and he has already repaid the faith by doing so.

As for it running at full tilt over winter, was this really necessary? It's not like the catchments were empty and certainly no where near as bad as elsewhere in Australia.

As for it running through September, it was actually turned off on September 7th. If you look at the Melbourne Water Storage site you can see the Sugarloaf pipeline allocation. This is water that was allocated to Melbourne storages, but hasn't been sent down the pipeline since it was shut down then. So given the pipeline has been shut down for 3 months now, Ted Baillieu hasn't actually changed anything, he's just said it won't get turned back on. Given there is no need for it with our recent rains, I hardly see how that is a big issue.

As you said, he said he was going to shut it down, all the electorates in the Goulburn River area voted in the Nationals with something like a 70-30 two party preferred result, so he's only doing what the people in those electorates wanted and these are the people that the pipeline affected the most.

[Infamy]

all govt these days is of the centre right, both lib and lab, so it wont be especially different.

I'd say the Labor is still centre left and Liberal centre right. Labor is just a tough one to place as they have factions pushing in both directions.

Given the backlash towards Labor based on their pandering to the Greens and influence from the left side of the party causing most of their problems, I'd expect them to shift towards the centre right to try and get back into power
However if they do this then I'm not sure what they are going to stand for that makes them a point of difference. They have been pretty close to a "Liberal Lite" party since Kevin Rudd took over federally and copied all the Liberal policies. Is moving even more to the right what they really stand for, or what they feel they need to be seen as to win back power?

[Loui Tufga]

Thing is if the desal plant is going ahead then the North-South pipeline was never needed. Droughts happen, it's not the first and won't be the last.

Sorry infamy but the North South pipeline was running full tilt for the most part of winter! Even through the major flood's in September they were still releasing the alloted amount out of Eildon when The Goulburn river was at major flood level and threating townships down stream!! Labour was doing everything the could to get the water to Melbourne before the election. King Teddy won allot of votes in saying he would shut it down and he has already repaid the faith by doing so.

As for it running at full tilt over winter, was this really necessary? It's not like the catchments were empty and certainly no where near as bad as elsewhere in Australia.

As for it running through September, it was actually turned off on September 7th. If you look at the Melbourne Water Storage site you can see the Sugarloaf pipeline allocation. This is water that was allocated to Melbourne storages, but hasn't been sent down the pipeline since it was shut down then. So given the pipeline has been shut down for 3 months now, Ted Baillieu hasn't actually changed anything, he's just said it won't get turned back on. Given there is no need for it with our recent rains, I hardly see how that is a big issue.

As you said, he said he was going to shut it down, all the electorates in the Goulburn River area voted in the Nationals with something like a 70-30 two party preferred result, so he's only doing what the people in those electorates wanted and these are the people that the pipeline affected the most.

Infamy,

It wasn't necessary to be running the pipeline at all and be biggest joke was they were running it while the Goulburn river was in full flood!
On the 7th of September we were about 5 days into the major flooding for the Goulburn there was about 30,000 megaliters of flood water running through Yea and Brumby was still releasing 400 megaliters for the pipeline allocation?? This was just pure greed and a desperate attempt to try and prove the pipeline wasn't a white elephant!

Yes the pipeline was then turned off on the 7th of September but 38 billion liters of water had already been raped from Eildon with a further 37 billione liters set to come down the pipline before the end of the year!
So Ted has actually changed something! By closing down the pipeline he has stoped a further 37 billion litres from being sent down the pipe this year and the 80 billion litre's that was set to come down the pipe in 2011, 2012, 2013 ect, ect................

[Carvels Ring]

all govt these days is of the centre right, both lib and lab, so it wont be especially different.

I'd say the Labor is still centre left and Liberal centre right. Labor is just a tough one to place as they have factions pushing in both directions.

Given the backlash towards Labor based on their pandering to the Greens and influence from the left side of the party causing most of their problems, I'd expect them to shift towards the centre right to try and get back into power
However if they do this then I'm not sure what they are going to stand for that makes them a point of difference. They have been pretty close to a "Liberal Lite" party since Kevin Rudd took over federally and copied all the Liberal policies. Is moving even more to the right what they really stand for, or what they feel they need to be seen as to win back power?

Infamy this is a really interesting debate.  It would take some time and hindsight to really work it out.  If anything i would argue that the Greens scare labour with some of their more progressive polices, but its all a matter of opinion.  The labour lite theme is valid.

[mightytiges]

all govt these days is of the centre right, both lib and lab, so it wont be especially different.

I'd say the Labor is still centre left and Liberal centre right. Labor is just a tough one to place as they have factions pushing in both directions.

Given the backlash towards Labor based on their pandering to the Greens and influence from the left side of the party causing most of their problems, I'd expect them to shift towards the centre right to try and get back into power
However if they do this then I'm not sure what they are going to stand for that makes them a point of difference. They have been pretty close to a "Liberal Lite" party since Kevin Rudd took over federally and copied all the Liberal policies. Is moving even more to the right what they really stand for, or what they feel they need to be seen as to win back power?

Infamy this is a really interesting debate.  It would take some time and hindsight to really work it out.  If anything i would argue that the Greens scare labour with some of their more progressive polices, but its all a matter of opinion.  The labour lite theme is valid.

Parties are a spread of the political spectrum and there's a crossover depending on the issue being discussed - Greens are far left to left; Labor are left (socialist left) to centre right (labor right); Libs are centre/centre right (moderates) to right (conservatives); Nationals and Family First are right; One Nation is far right. It is always so black & white. Sometimes you get someone from the Labor right having more in common on an issue with the Liberal moderates than either has with others in their respective parties. Brendon Nelson was a member of young Labor while both parties chased Peter Costello when he was a Uni student like it was an AFL draft. In fact pollies are now often churned out of Uni politics so no wonder they often stand for little except to show off they can win debating comps taking the opposite viewpoint to what they actually believe in . This Vic election was hardly a old fashion left vs right battle when you consider Brumby was offering camps for Year 9s and Baillieu full year energy price concessions for concession card holders (more welfare).

[Carvels Ring]

MT, I know what u mean about the spread across the spectrum at any given time, depending on the issue, but i still think it's more complex than that, and even though there is still a left-right continuum, it's mostly huddled around the safe territory of the centre-right.

But it's not that simple.  Take an issue like Gay Marriage.  I don't think this really fits into what u call a 'far' left position, which i dont think they Greens are anyway.

I dont think an issue like that falls into the old progressive v conservative camps (pun hehehe)

[mightytiges]

It's hard to see social conservatives (right-wing) supporting gay marriage. They'll have to be dragged along kicking and screaming as happened with divorce 50 years ago. Eventually these conservatives against it die out or become irrelevant and we move on and the next generation wonders what the big deal was all about.

[Carvels Ring]

It's hard to see social conservatives (right-wing) supporting gay marriage. They'll have to be dragged along kicking and screaming as happened with divorce 50 years ago. Eventually these conservatives against it die out or become irrelevant and we move on and the next generation wonders what the big deal was all about.

True.  But a lot of working class left wingers wouldnt support it either.

[Infamy]

I don't think this really fits into what u call a 'far' left position, which i dont think they Greens are anyway.

You may want to re-check what the Greens really stand for
They seem to avoid critisism, but they are a very dangerous party and if they ever get too much power the country is in a LOT of trouble