Author Topic: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon / Difference between us and Hawthorn is simply this.  (Read 8386 times)

Offline one-eyed

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Hawks fly, Tigers flounder
17 April 2007   Herald-Sun
Garry Lyon

THE popular perception is that Terry Wallace had his choice of either the Richmond or Hawthorn job at the end of the 2004 season and elected to go with the Tigers, Garry Lyon writes.

The thought being that their list may have been a little further advanced. Fair enough, for at the time it would have been a pretty subjective call.

The Hawks appointed the untried Alistair Clarkson. Both coaches remain in the position today.

Two seasons and three games down the track there would be few in the football world who would share Wallace's opinion of the respective lists right now.

One sits on the precipice of an exciting new era, buoyed by the continued development of an ultra-exciting combination of young, tall, powerful, athletic key position players and hard-running, ball-winning midfielders. The other is staring down the barrel of having to rebuild all over again.

It reflects a brave, totally transparent recruiting philosophy implemented by Clarkson on his arrival.

Trade those who don't figure in the long-term future of the club for the highest draft selections they can deliver, and then take the best young kids.

Start with the spine of the team, then build around them.

Pick players on what they can deliver over a 10-year period, not what they can deliver now, be prepared to suffer some short-term pain and don't deviate from the stated goal.

The Tigers appear to be in a state of flux. Richmond has a smattering of talented youngsters, an ageing goal-to-goal line and carries some expensive investments whose return has not matched expectation.

The gap between the two has widened markedly in a relatively short space of time, in terms of quality, succession planning and balance.

The Tigers have no one to compare with Buddy Franklin, arguably the most exciting talent in the game and a player they overlooked in favour of Richard Tambling.

There is some irony in the fact that he is as close to a mirror image of a young Matthew Richardson as you could hope for, with one important exception. Kicking goals for him is as natural and exciting as it is laborious and excruciating for Richo.

Brett Deledio has been a success, and at selection No. 1 you would expect nothing less. But is he any further advanced than Jordan Lewis or Grant Birchall or even the rapidly emerging Clinton Young?

That trio have gone past Tambling, and the Tigers' number No. 4 selection in the 2005 draft needs to start having a greater impact on games.

Jarryd Roughead is going to be a very good player. Along with Simon Taylor, Xavier Ellis, Stephen Gilham and Ben McGlynn, they have all played roles in the Hawks' past two wins. Comparatively, Dean Polo and Nathan Foley would get a tick from Richmond supporters. Adam Pattison, Luke McGuane and Cameron Howat seem some way off it.

Tiger fans want to know where Danny Meyer (No. 12 in the '05 draft) is at. They want to know if Jarrod Oakley-Nicholls (No. 8 in '06) is going to be a 10-year player. They want to know if Cleve Hughes (No. 24 in '06) will hold down a key position within a couple of years.

With Matthew Richardson 32, Darren Gaspar turning 31 and Kane Johnson, Nathan Brown, Joel Bowden and Troy Simmonds turning 29, these questions become more pressing and the answers more important.

The Hawks can still look forward to introducing blue-chip youngsters like Beau Dowler, Beau Muston, Matt Little, Thomas Murphy and big Max Bailey, while their young veterans Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell and Trent Croad have plenty of football ahead.

Clarkson's attitude to list development is even more obvious when it comes to recycled players. In his time he has added just two players from other AFL clubs. Brent Guerra remains, while Bo Nixon was delisted in 2005.

At the same time he moved on Mark Graham, Jon Hay, Nathan Lonie, Lance Picioane and Peter Everitt.

Wallace would appear to have more of an open mind.

Over time he has added Mark Graham, Trent Knobel, Troy Simmonds, Patrick Bowden, Kent Kingsley and Graham Polak. Some have succeeded, some are still grappling with their baggage.

Aaron Fiora, Brad Ottens and David Rodan have all moved on and continued their careers with other AFL clubs.

The result is that one club has been unwavering in its commitment to stack its list with the best kids it can get. It was never better illustrated than at the 2005 national draft, with Hawthorn having five of the first 22 picks.

They selected, among others, Xavier Ellis, who they knew was going to play the following year with Melbourne Grammar, Dowler, who was recovering from a broken pelvis and not expected to play much footy at all and Muston, who was still recovering from a knee reconstruction.

The Hawks are in good shape for years to come on the back of their steadfast approach to their list development. The Tigers' future is far less certain. They have had a bit of a dabble everywhere: elite kids, high-profile trades, high-risk trades and now talk of a 2011 timeline.

If the senior job at these two clubs came up now, I know where most aspiring coaches would send their applications.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21569184%255E19771,00.html

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2007, 07:40:11 AM »
lyon is so fos and just goes which ever way the wind is blowing!

the hawks have won this yr but have played pathetic footy and have not been tested yet.

lets see what this thing head lyon rights in rnd 22. im going to save this article and let him read in in 19 weeks time

lyon is just a monkey

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2007, 08:20:09 AM »
Hawks fly, Tigers flounder
17 April 2007   Herald-Sun
Garry Lyon

THE popular perception is that Terry Wallace had his choice of either the Richmond or Hawthorn job at the end of the 2004 season and elected to go with the Tigers, Garry Lyon writes.

The thought being that their list may have been a little further advanced. Fair enough, for at the time it would have been a pretty subjective call.

The Hawks appointed the untried Alistair Clarkson. Both coaches remain in the position today.

Two seasons and three games down the track there would be few in the football world who would share Wallace's opinion of the respective lists right now.

One sits on the precipice of an exciting new era, buoyed by the continued development of an ultra-exciting combination of young, tall, powerful, athletic key position players and hard-running, ball-winning midfielders. The other is staring down the barrel of having to rebuild all over again.

It reflects a brave, totally transparent recruiting philosophy implemented by Clarkson on his arrival.

Trade those who don't figure in the long-term future of the club for the highest draft selections they can deliver, and then take the best young kids.

Start with the spine of the team, then build around them.

Pick players on what they can deliver over a 10-year period, not what they can deliver now, be prepared to suffer some short-term pain and don't deviate from the stated goal.

The Tigers appear to be in a state of flux. Richmond has a smattering of talented youngsters, an ageing goal-to-goal line and carries some expensive investments whose return has not matched expectation.

The gap between the two has widened markedly in a relatively short space of time, in terms of quality, succession planning and balance.

The Tigers have no one to compare with Buddy Franklin, arguably the most exciting talent in the game and a player they overlooked in favour of Richard Tambling.

There is some irony in the fact that he is as close to a mirror image of a young Matthew Richardson as you could hope for, with one important exception. Kicking goals for him is as natural and exciting as it is laborious and excruciating for Richo.

Brett Deledio has been a success, and at selection No. 1 you would expect nothing less. But is he any further advanced than Jordan Lewis or Grant Birchall or even the rapidly emerging Clinton Young?

That trio have gone past Tambling, and the Tigers' number No. 4 selection in the 2005 draft needs to start having a greater impact on games.

Jarryd Roughead is going to be a very good player. Along with Simon Taylor, Xavier Ellis, Stephen Gilham and Ben McGlynn, they have all played roles in the Hawks' past two wins. Comparatively, Dean Polo and Nathan Foley would get a tick from Richmond supporters. Adam Pattison, Luke McGuane and Cameron Howat seem some way off it.

Tiger fans want to know where Danny Meyer (No. 12 in the '05 draft) is at. They want to know if Jarrod Oakley-Nicholls (No. 8 in '06) is going to be a 10-year player. They want to know if Cleve Hughes (No. 24 in '06) will hold down a key position within a couple of years.

With Matthew Richardson 32, Darren Gaspar turning 31 and Kane Johnson, Nathan Brown, Joel Bowden and Troy Simmonds turning 29, these questions become more pressing and the answers more important.

The Hawks can still look forward to introducing blue-chip youngsters like Beau Dowler, Beau Muston, Matt Little, Thomas Murphy and big Max Bailey, while their young veterans Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell and Trent Croad have plenty of football ahead.

Clarkson's attitude to list development is even more obvious when it comes to recycled players. In his time he has added just two players from other AFL clubs. Brent Guerra remains, while Bo Nixon was delisted in 2005.

At the same time he moved on Mark Graham, Jon Hay, Nathan Lonie, Lance Picioane and Peter Everitt.

Wallace would appear to have more of an open mind.

Over time he has added Mark Graham, Trent Knobel, Troy Simmonds, Patrick Bowden, Kent Kingsley and Graham Polak. Some have succeeded, some are still grappling with their baggage.

Aaron Fiora, Brad Ottens and David Rodan have all moved on and continued their careers with other AFL clubs.

The result is that one club has been unwavering in its commitment to stack its list with the best kids it can get. It was never better illustrated than at the 2005 national draft, with Hawthorn having five of the first 22 picks.

They selected, among others, Xavier Ellis, who they knew was going to play the following year with Melbourne Grammar, Dowler, who was recovering from a broken pelvis and not expected to play much footy at all and Muston, who was still recovering from a knee reconstruction.

The Hawks are in good shape for years to come on the back of their steadfast approach to their list development. The Tigers' future is far less certain. They have had a bit of a dabble everywhere: elite kids, high-profile trades, high-risk trades and now talk of a 2011 timeline.

If the senior job at these two clubs came up now, I know where most aspiring coaches would send their applications.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21569184%255E19771,00.html


Would totally agree with what Gary has written

letsgetiton!

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2007, 08:42:37 AM »
the hawks are not flying, we have played better than them 4 no result.
hawks have been lucky and will fall

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2007, 10:41:23 AM »
Unfotunately I to have to agree with the article. The hawks did much better at the draft than what we did. Thats why if we finish bottom this year it should be seen as an opportunity to recorrect the balance and we must clean out the players who wont make it. I can see 8 or 9 changes again to the list.

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2007, 12:54:52 PM »
Unfotunately I to have to agree with the article. The hawks did much better at the draft than what we did. Thats why if we finish bottom this year it should be seen as an opportunity to recorrect the balance and we must clean out the players who wont make it. I can see 8 or 9 changes again to the list.

I think there would be a few surprising changes if there was a clean out.
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2007, 01:24:41 PM »
The Hawks have just got over 2 sides who haven't won a game yet and were flogged by Brisbane. The Hawks won 4 of their first 5 games last year against what turned out to be bottom sides then lost 12 of their next 13.  Let's wait until round 22 to judge.

Also Roughead had been playing VFL before a late call up last week yet he doesn't cop the bagging Tambo does even though he was picked up earlier  ::).

Quote from: wayne
I think there would be a few surprising changes if there was a clean out.
Agree wayne on top of the obvious ones.
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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2007, 01:40:01 PM »
Also Roughead had been playing VFL before a late call up last week yet he doesn't cop the bagging Tambo does even though he was picked up earlier  ::).

But KP always take longer.......... ::)
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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2007, 09:50:01 PM »
I think the trouble is most people read Lyon's article post here is that they ' can't see the wood for the trees"

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2007, 10:32:44 PM »
Also Roughead had been playing VFL before a late call up last week yet he doesn't cop the bagging Tambo does even though he was picked up earlier  ::).

But KP always take longer.......... ::)
lol

Yet Lyon brings up Hughes who was taken the year after Roughead. He also mentions JON who has missed most of preseason training with a stress fracture yet Muston and co who have also had long-term injuries and haven't played a game will be champions. The funny thing is if we were 3-0 or even 2-1 which we could've been (I know we're not), we would still be in the exact same position list wise with the same deficiencies yet articles like this wouldn't be written. Footy is a results business.
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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 04:12:51 AM »
Andy Collins hit back at Garry Lyon's article:

Quote
Coburg has won three straight to charge to top place, perhaps temporarily with five Round 4 games left.

"We wouldn't have anticipated that with such a young group, but our young guys are coming along a lot quicker," Collins said.'

"And you know that article about Richmond youth and Hawthorn youth, well it was on display today, wasn't it?

"These are guys that Terry is looking at to step up and they are developing really nicely as footballers at the moment."

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21622318%255E19771,00.html

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 06:43:19 AM »
as i said b4, garry lyon is fos, and has no idea

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2007, 08:50:59 AM »
Hawthorn are currently peroforming better than us because they have donw what we appear to be starting to do.

That is give the older guys the flick and bring in the kids. Either way it appears we will finish on the bottom so you give the kids the experience of senior footy this year and add another pre-season on top of that and you are in a much better position.

Add to that some more top draft picks and Bob's your uncle  :thumbsup

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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2007, 03:07:21 PM »
While Lyon drools over Buddy and Lewis it is their middle-age breacket players -  Hodge, Mitchell, Williams, Brown, Bateman, Campbell, Sewell, Osbourne, Clarke along - who are the Hawks core. Still too early in the season yet to get too excited about them. They started like this last year too before falling in a whole.
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Re: Hawks fly, Tigers flounder - Lyon
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2007, 05:44:22 PM »
Pick the list that lacks 22-27 year olds Garry Lyon  ::). That's the difference. Hawthorn 16 compared to our 9 plus two rookies.

Hawthorn - players used: 25

32: Crawford
30: J.Smith, Vandenberg
29: Dixon
27: Croad
26: Jacobs
25: Bateman, Clarke
24: Campbell, Guerra, Mitchell, Osbourne, Taylor, Williams
23: Boyle, C.Brown, Ladson, Sewell
22: Gilham, Hodge
21: Dawson, Lewis, Little, McGlynn, Thurgood, Young, Gibson#
20: Bailey, Franklin, Roughead, McEntee#
19: Birchall, Dowler, Ellis, T.Tuck
18: J.P.Kennedy, Morton, Renouf, Thorp, B.Collins#, Suckling#

Richmond - players used: 25

32: Richo
31: Gaspar
29: N.Brown, K.Johnson
28: J.Bowden, Kingsley, Simmonds, Tivendale
27: Knobel
26: Hall
25: P.Bowden, Coughlan, Newman, Pettifer, S.Tuck
24: Hyde, Krakouer
23: Moore, King#
22: Hartigan, Polak, Schulz, Howat#
21: Foley, Jackson, Pattison, Raines, Thursfield
20: Casserly, Deledio, Hughes, McGuane, Meyer, Polo, Tambling, White, Graham#
19: Oakley-Nicholls, Peterson
18: A.Collins, Connors, Edwards, Riewoldt, Clingan#

# - rookies
bold - played this year
red - long-term injured
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