Author Topic: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs  (Read 3201 times)

Offline one-eyed

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It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« on: April 20, 2007, 01:54:34 AM »
It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
20 April 2007   Herald-Sun
Trevor Grant

RICHMOND and the Western Bulldogs will head into tonight's clash at the MCG with hate in their hearts, according to former Tigers coach Danny Frawley.

Frawley, who was a central figure in the infamous 2001 encounter at the MCG, said it was comical to listen to the two clubs try to pretend that the undisguised antagonism between them would not be factor in the match.

"I laughed during the week when (Richmond president) Gary March said, 'We'll bury the hatchet and put it behind us'," Frawley said.

"I can tell you now from being involved in that match in 2001, while they might say it's no more than four points to the winner and none to the loser, the win will feel like a mini-final and the loss like a dagger to the heart."

Frawley said the fallout from the 2001 Round 2 match had been the catalyst for a modern-day rivalry to match any in the game. The feeling has been inflamed by the defection of two high-profile Bulldogs to Punt Rd: coach Terry Wallace and gun forward Nathan Brown.

"I've got no doubt there is hatred there, hatred as far as footy goes," Frawley said. "I don't think either coach will have to motivate the players too much."

The whole thing began when Richmond star midfielder Matthew Knights was felled by a blow from Bulldogs tagger Tony Liberatore well off the ball in the first minute of play in that 2001 match.

Knights left the ground with blood streaming from a cut above the eye that needed seven stitches.

It might have ended when Liberatore was suspended for five matches after an AFL investigation, but inflammatory remarks from various protagonists, including Frawley and the two club presidents, kept fuel on the fire for a long time.

Now the opening of an old wound on the eve of the match has ensured the 2001 match will not be forgotten in a hurry.

It came courtesy of former Bulldog Paul Dimattina, who said he was convinced ex-Richmond captain Wayne Campbell had not told the truth to the tribunal that suspended Liberatore.

Campbell famously broke the players' code of silence, testifying that he had seen Liberatore hit Knights.

"I'm pretty sure all Wayne Campbell saw was the aftermath. I don't think anyone really saw what happened," Dimattina said.

Frawley might be out of coaching these days but his strong response to this charge this week left no doubt about the impact the match had on the participants.

"That's crap. Wayne didn't make it up. I think Wayne was unfairly treated in the whole scenario. He saw what happened. I know he did the right thing," Frawley said.

Just to add more spice to tonight's match, Campbell is now an assistant coach at the Bulldogs. However, as with Knights and Liberatore, he declined to comment.

If there was any chance the heat in this rivalry was dissipating, especially as both teams have been pre-occupied with stuttering starts to the 2007 season, it evaporated recently when Bulldogs president David Smorgon said his club was much better off without Brown and that Wallace should stop writing newspaper articles about the Dogs.

His counterpart March responded as expected, telling Smorgon to worry about his own club, which hadn't won a flag for over 50 years and hadn't made a profit for almost as long. Both presidents have since kissed and made up but no one is fooled.

"Gary March tried to defuse it during the week but I'm tipping come Friday morning when all parties from both clubs wake up, they'll be thinking this is one game they desperately want to win," Frawley said.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21587658%255E20322,00.html

Offline one-eyed

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2007, 01:56:26 AM »
Raw wounds in Dogs-Tigers feud
20 April 2007   Herald-Sun
Trevor Grant

FOR two teams that have never contested a final against each other, let alone a Grand Final, Richmond and the Western Bulldogs have developed a remarkably virulent strain of mutual animosity.

Some seasoned combatants, such as the former Richmond coach, Danny Frawley, would go further. "I've got no doubt there is hatred there, hatred as far as footy goes," he said this week.

Unlike the enmity that has built over a century between the likes of Carlton and Collingwood, this is a rivalry that has its roots in the modern day. However, it seems no less intense for its relative immaturity.

It is a feeling that can be identified in grand and small gestures alike; it is contained in fiery public rhetoric from chest-thumping presidents and the less obvious personal barbs that fly between the coaches every now and then.

It is there in the way the supporters sneer at each other on talkback radio and, most tellingly, it can be found in the attempts by both clubs this week either to deny the existence of bad blood, or to refuse to talk about it, for fear it might provoke distracting emotional responses from the players when they confront each other at the MCG tonight.

With so many rivalries in football, it's difficult to pinpoint where it all started. If you ask supporters from some clubs for a clue they will shrug and say: "We just hate them, always have." But anyone who has plumbed the depth of the ill-will between these two clubs will go straight to 2001, and a game they contested at the MCG on a sunny April Saturday.

In fact, it's not a game or even a quarter of football that lies at the heart of it all. It was one collision between two players in the opening minute.

When Bulldogs' tagger Tony Liberatore crunched his opponent Matthew Knights, sending him off the field with blood streaming from a cut that would have stopped a contest in the boxing ring, we had the catalyst for the outpouring of ill-will that has flowed ever since.

In some ways it was a clash of cultures. Knights was the fair-haired champion of the masses at Punt Rd; a ball player with an innate ability to shred an opposition with his exquisite skills.

Liberatore was also once defined by the noble ideals of "fairest-and-best", winning the 1990 Brownlow Medal. But he had long since morphed into the Bulldogs' suicide bomber, a man ready for any task for the good of the cause, no matter how tough or how distasteful to the opposition. The more they booed, the more he rejoiced in picking off targets.

On this day they did more than boo. It seemed the entire Richmond fraternity - coach, players, president, fans - became one enraged mass, enveloped in a red mist that would not clear for at least a week.

Wayne Campbell, who had replaced Knights as captain at the start of the season, wrestled Liberatore to the ground and gave away goals through free kicks. Then-coach Frawley marched Knights over to the umpires at quarter-time in the centre of the ground, pointing out Knights' bandaged head, into which had been inserted seven stitches. After the game, which, predictably, Richmond lost, he continued the pugilistic theme, warning that "every dog has its day."

Frawley, who was fined $6000 ($3000 of which was suspended) admits that he over-reacted at the time and it was detrimental to the team. But he says, initially at least, he couldn't help it, mainly because of the memory of an incident involving himself and Hawthorn opponent Dermott Brereton when Frawley was playing for St Kilda.

"One of the coaches in the box saw what Libba had done and when he told me what happened I must admit I lost a bit of control. The reason was it happened to me 10 years earlier. You don't mind getting hit, as long as you see it coming," Frawley said.

"I copped a fine for walking Matty Knights over to the umpires, but I wanted him to know I was there to stick up for him."

By Monday, at least the coach and players had returned to normality, getting ready for a game against Brisbane. However, it took the club president, Clinton Casey, much longer to settle down.

His public condemnation of the Bulldogs appeared to know no bounds. In one fell swoop at the pre-game lunch the next week, he accused Liberatore of king-hitting Knights 100m off the ball and inventing an alibi, while slamming president David Smorgon and coach Terry Wallace for condoning Liberatore's actions.

continued .....

Offline one-eyed

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2007, 01:57:41 AM »
Across the Maribyrnong, they reacted with incredulity that anyone would dare question the motives of their beloved Libba, or their much-admired coach and former player. Smorgon's response was to describe Casey as a "shock-jock looking for a sensational headline". Smorgon said it was an "unprovoked, offensive and unprecedented" attack which made their Carlton counterpart John Elliott "look like a diplomat".

Liberatore had already paid the price, being suspended for five matches at the tribunal after an AFL investigation into his hit on Knights. It was at this point that the fallout from the clash filtered down to the locker-room, a place which normally seals itself off from the bluster of the boardroom.

Campbell broke the players' code of silence at the tribunal, saying he saw Liberatore deliberately hit Knights. Not surprisingly, it generated a savage response from the Bulldogs.

"A couple of Richmond players broke the code about what happens on the field stays there. They dobbed in Libba and Terry certainly made a fair bit of that in the lead-up to the next match against them later in the year," said Paul Dimattina, a member of the Bulldogs' famed midfield mafia, which also included Liberatore and Jose Romero.

It was the uncompromising way the Bulldogs played the game under Wallace which contributed to the antagonism between the club and, not just Richmond, but the entire competition. "We went out there at times to bully and intimidate sides, with a fair bit of sledging. The idea of sledging is to get inside someone's head and throw them off their game," Dimattina said.

What made it so much worse for opposition supporters to stomach, as it did that day, was that the Bulldogs never seemed to have any qualms, or remorse, about the way they went about things.

"Libba tried to do what he did best, which was to unsettle the opposition," Dimattina said. "The result wasn't what he was trying to do. Sometimes you step over the white line and do things that prompt you to ask yourself: Did I really do that?' I think it was one of those incidents for Libba.

"But nothing fazes Libba. He was getting investigated every second week. To be honest, I've never seen anything really upset him, faze him or get him worried over the 13 or 14 years I've known him."

For all the hostility that erupted from this day, there was a snippet of humour, which Dimattina recalls with much fondness. "I started on the bench with Jose Romero. When Matty Knights came off he ran straight to us and started yelling abuse and saying, 'You two were involved in that as well'. It was the funniest thing we've ever heard on the footy field," said Dimattina, who now, as Essendon runner, works alongside Knights, one of Kevin Sheedy's assistants.

"I see 'Knighter' a fair bit and I still have a chuckle about it. He says he just wanted to bash someone back and we were the closest players he could see."

There wasn't much laughter to be heard between the Tigers and Bulldogs back then, though, and it's still difficult to detect now, six years on.

The Bulldogs aren't the in-tight intimidators they once were. As with all good teams, they play to their strengths, which are leg speed and swift ball movement. And Richmond, too, has undergone a major makeover, although whether it's more cosmetic than anything else is still to be decided.

But there's enough participants from the 2001 Round 2 game still playing at their clubs, as well as a whole raft of egos on sidelines, to keep the enmity alive.

The Tigers have 10 players from the 2001 list still at the club, while the Bulldogs have 14. Eleven of them played in the match -- five for Richmond and six for the Bulldogs -- while two others who were Bulldogs at the time, Patrick Bowden and Nathan Brown, are now at Richmond.

Campbell, who caused the Bulldogs so much angst, is now an assistant coach at the Bulldogs, as is Leon Cameron, who played at the Bulldogs and Richmond before joining the Dogs as a coaching off-sider.

Without doubt, though, it has been the transfers of Brown, in 2004, and then Wallace in 2005, which have generated more friction and heartburn than any others.

Smorgon reignited the flame when he claimed at the start of this season the Whitten Oval was a much better place now that the ultra-talented Brown had departed.

It was in keeping with his sentiments when the players voted not to give Wallace one final game to say farewell when he suddenly quit, one game before the end of the 2002 season. "Maybe there was a bit of naivete . . . in that Terry thought we would all buy the story. I think we all know the story and that's just sad," Smorgon said at the time in reference to Wallace's alleged link to the Swans coaching job.

When Frawley, who coached against the Bulldogs seven times for five wins in his five-year reign at Richmond, uttered his famous remark about every dog having its day, he didn't realise how prophetic it would prove.

While Richmond recovered incredibly well from the low-point of the Liberatore-Knights match, winning the next four matches, including a victory over the eventual 2001 premier, Brisbane, the very next week, the Bulldogs staggered badly, losing three of their next four.

By the time they came together for the return bout, in Round 17, the momentum was very much with the Tigers. They duly used it, coming from 16 points down in the final quarter to win by two points. "It was the game that kick-started our run to the finals and ended their year. I remember saying to the boys that whatever happens in the finals we won't be under more pressure than tonight," Frawley said.

Suddenly, Casey's lips, which appeared to have been sewn together after his emotional outburst against the Bulldogs earlier in the season, opened for business again.

"Some games are just a bit sweeter than others. They don't get much sweeter than this," he declared in the rooms after the win.

There is little doubt that the winner tonight will utter a very similar sentiment.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21586871%255E20322,00.html

Offline mightytiges

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2007, 03:19:28 AM »
When I think of rivalry as a Richmond supporter one of the last clubs I think of is the Bulldogs. Where are the GF and finals clashes between the two clubs that make it a genuine rivalry? There isn't any. Same with the Hawks. We've played every other Vic club in GFs except these two but for some reason because those in red, white and blue have a few chips on their shoulder due to favourite ex-sons crossing the CBD to Punt Rd, they're suddenly our rivals in the eyes of the media on par with our traditional and true rivals - Pies and Blues ::). Add to that why ask a former coach who has thankfully been long gone now and has the credibility of a gnat in the eyes of most Tiger supporters to comment on our behalf of this make believe rivalry? Because the journos couldn't find a genuine Richmond person to support their story  ::)  :sleep.

We need a win tonight because we need a win. It wouldn't matter who it was against. Nothing more, nothing less!
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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2007, 09:03:22 AM »
Is of interest that the return match at the Dome where the tigers won, Frawley actually out coached Wallace that night ::)

Offline cub

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2007, 09:25:08 AM »
When I think of rivalry as a Richmond supporter one of the last clubs I think of is the Bulldogs. Where are the GF and finals clashes between the two clubs that make it a genuine rivalry? There isn't any. Same with the Hawks. We've played every other Vic club in GFs except these two but for some reason because those in red, white and blue have a few chips on their shoulder due to favourite ex-sons crossing the CBD to Punt Rd, they're suddenly our rivals in the eyes of the media on par with our traditional and true rivals - Pies and Blues ::). Add to that why ask a former coach who has thankfully been long gone now and has the credibility of a gnat in the eyes of most Tiger supporters to comment on our behalf of this make believe rivalry? Because the journos couldn't find a genuine Richmond person to support their story  ::)  :sleep.

We need a win tonight because we need a win. It wouldn't matter who it was against. Nothing more, nothing less!

So true MT - sorta makes me larf - How the Bulldogs and their supporters think there is this great rivalry, because they have been so hopeless for so long they have to make something up - LMAOOO @ Bulldogs.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 09:46:55 AM by CUB »

Gordon Bennett

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2007, 11:09:55 AM »
Is of interest that the return match at the Dome where the tigers won, Frawley actually out coached Wallace that night ::)
You never miss an opportunity to bash Wallace, do you Jack? It's now so out of proportion that it's become a farce.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2007, 01:20:20 PM »
Is of interest that the return match at the Dome where the tigers won, Frawley actually out coached Wallace that night ::)
Yet Plough's best winning % against any of the current coaches is against Sheedy  ;)

Wallace vs ...
Sheedy  7-4 (1 draw)
Pagan    8-5
Eade     8-5

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2007, 03:07:12 PM »
Is of interest that the return match at the Dome where the tigers won, Frawley actually out coached Wallace that night ::)
You never miss an opportunity to bash Wallace, do you Jack? It's now so out of proportion that it's become a farce.

Well everyone else has bashed Frawley didnt they. ? 
It is down in the records books that the tiges won that night
Becoming a farce, see whats happening by round 11 and that will be a farce ;)

Offline blaisee

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2007, 03:50:42 PM »
Is of interest that the return match at the Dome where the tigers won, Frawley actually out coached Wallace that night ::)
You never miss an opportunity to bash Wallace, do you Jack? It's now so out of proportion that it's become a farce.

hehehe
gordon

just sit back and enjoy the show its hilarious !

Offline mightytiges

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2007, 04:26:06 PM »
Is of interest that the return match at the Dome where the tigers won, Frawley actually out coached Wallace that night ::)
You never miss an opportunity to bash Wallace, do you Jack? It's now so out of proportion that it's become a farce.

Well everyone else has bashed Frawley didnt they. ? 
It is down in the records books that the tiges won that night
True about the record books but Doggie fans still whinge about that non-free to Browny which could've changed the result  :whistle.

The criticism of Spud didn't start until after the 2001 November/December drafts when he topped up with Hudson and Houlihan and traded away our first pick in need of a ruckman after forcing Benny Gale into retirement. He then after 2002 didn't move with the times and change his gameplan. Spud also drafted just one KPP in his 5 years as coach amongst the many other recruiting stuff-ups. Spud (and Geisch) absolutely decimated our list and we're still paying for it now :scream.
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Offline Mopsy

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2007, 04:31:42 PM »
During the Coronation Lightning Premiership Charlie Sutton who was flat out keeping up with the game ran past Col Austin who was taking a free kick and gave Col another kick this time to the leg to slow the game down long enough to get himself into position.

No 50 metres in those days In fact there were no metres either it was yards then come to think of it.

Funny how things stay in your mind I can still see it when i think of it.

Bye the way the Tigers won that Premiership.

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2007, 10:48:16 PM »
Is of interest that the return match at the Dome where the tigers won, Frawley actually out coached Wallace that night ::)
You never miss an opportunity to bash Wallace, do you Jack? It's now so out of proportion that it's become a farce.

I might just add, after watching the rubbish the tiges dished up tonite, the game plan stinks. The players continually kick short in the back half and handball in circles, now anyone who thinks this is good coaching has little idea about football..
As for bashing Terry, well he is the coach isnt he ?
He is instructing them to play this way.
Going to be a very long season if they dont change there ways


Ramps

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2007, 11:04:22 PM »
The r11 predictions that came prior to the start of the season are on track. Bring on pick 1 17 and 18.

Offline one-eyed

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Re: It's hatred with Tigers and Dogs
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2007, 12:02:14 AM »
The Prez March has come out dismissing the "rivalry".....

Quote
March was also critical of an article quoting former Tigers coach Danny Frawley which discussed the "hatred" between the Bulldogs and Richmond.

The modern-day rivalry stems back to a game in 2001 when Bulldog Tony Liberatore felled Richmond's Matthew Knights, and has been fanned in recent years by a series of defections among players and coaches between the two clubs.

"There is absolutely no foundation to that whatsoever," March said.

"There's no hatred (between) these two clubs, there is rivalry.

"Maybe this week should have been rivalry round, but we want to beat the Bulldogs tonight as much as we wanted to beat Collingwood last week and Sydney the week before."

http://richmondfc.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/6301/Default.aspx?newsId=41689