Author Topic: 15 Tigers over 190cm  (Read 6532 times)

richmondrules

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2007, 07:30:39 AM »
... and RROFO that is a brilliant avater  :thumbsup

Thanks bluey, my daughter was rapt to meet Tiger Stripes, he was far more interesting than the players. I've promised I will take her to a game this year but I am not too sure what her concentration is going to be like. Should be interesting.

Offline julzqld

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2007, 08:35:02 AM »
I always thought Mark Graham was a good get.  Who could forget his last game and against his old club to boot?

Offline tiga

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2007, 08:45:52 AM »
its funny how people just forget about the kingsley thing like it never happened

that was purely wallace's decision which he thought could of pushed us into a mediocre 9th/10th position again, sure he didnt cost much but it was the fact we recruited a 29yr old when we are in a rebuilding peroid that was most dissapointing

bowden was handy for a game or two in 06 but he was never going to be long term - what was the point?

hmmmm mark graham aswell

great recruiting terry, your doing a spendid job ::)



Out of the last 4 drafts how many 'older' players have we recruited? 4 or 5 out of how many?
How many good choices have we made over the last 4 years? I would say there were more positives choices than bad.

What about the Frawley years? Now that was terrible recruiting and the reason why we have such a gap in our list. Why aren't you pointing the finger there?

What about other clubs? Every year there are almost as many failures as successes with recruits.

TW has made far more great choices than poor ones. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone is a genius in retrospect but as long as he continues to improve our list then I for one will continue to have faith in him.

Here are the 'bad' choices -

Mark Graham was a necessary inclusion and allowed us to almost play finals and add valuable experience and leadership to our backline.

Patrick Bowden was a great recruit at the time which added height, skill and leadership to our team. He played far more good games than he did bad but with injuries and the inclusion of Polak (who plays an almost identical role) his time was up. He was only 25 when he was recruited which was the exact age group we were missing.

Knobel had a fantastic year in 2006 and was a great 2nd tap ruckman for us. We needed more ruckmen which allowed us the luxury of playing Stafford in the forwardline. Injuries and his style of play caused his eventual demise.

Kingsley was free. He cost us the minimal player wage. Plain and simple. He was Geelongs leading goal kicker for years and was released from Geelong for personal issues between himself and the coach. Almost every expert at the time heralded his recruitment to the Tigers as a masterstroke. TW/Miller saw him as a terrific foil and motivation for our young forwards, able to pass on his experience and knowledge during training. At Geelong he was forced to play as there number one forward where at Richmond he had the opportunity to be play as the 2nd or even 3rd forward where he had the potential to strengthen up our forward line significantly and make it far less predicatable.

Cartledge and Howat are insurance. In a weak and shallow draft they were taken in case of injuries.


I would love you to make a list of all the good recruitment choices that have been made over the last four years. If the bad out number the good then I think you have a reason to be so angry at TW's recruitment but if the good out number the bad then...perhaps you may need to face the truth - TW IS doing a good job afterall. :)

Stripes



Well said Stripes!  :clapping :clapping My sentiments exactly!!
If it weren't for injury I think Kingsley would have been a serviceable player for us. And yes Graham played a very important role despite what some of our more negative members are saying.

Compare Frawley's time with Wallace's time at the club I much prefer Wallace's tenure. Sure Frawley was at the helm during a finals campaign in 2001, but we really got there by pure luck and playing incredibly negative football which was never going to be sustainable. Our percentage was 10 points worse than the majority of the other clubs in the 8 that year. Wallace since coming to the club has laid some solid foundations so the club can move forward and play regular finals footy. Last season was "The recession we had to have" and now I can only see us moving forward.

Offline wayne

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2007, 09:15:37 AM »
Cartledge and Howat are insurance. In a weak and shallow draft they were taken in case of injuries.

I think people are starting to get carried away with the rookie draft, not many of these guys make it.

We could have used our 3rd rookie pick on an untried ruckman, but if our ruckmen suffer the same fate in 2008 as they did in 2007, do you think a 17 year old (pick 100 in reality) could step in and provide a good contest?

Stripes is right, we have used two rookie picks on guys that are ready to play, they mightn't be stars but all they're there for is insurance.
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blx

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2007, 10:19:00 AM »
McMahon is only 24. If he can get to his 2006 form he will be an assit.

CLASSIC!!!  ;D

Offline mightytiges

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2007, 10:05:47 PM »
Cartledge and Howat are insurance. In a weak and shallow draft they were taken in case of injuries.

I think people are starting to get carried away with the rookie draft, not many of these guys make it.

We could have used our 3rd rookie pick on an untried ruckman, but if our ruckmen suffer the same fate in 2008 as they did in 2007, do you think a 17 year old (pick 100 in reality) could step in and provide a good contest?

Stripes is right, we have used two rookie picks on guys that are ready to play, they mightn't be stars but all they're there for is insurance.
True wayne.

IMO we should be aiming for at least one rookie per year becoming an AFL footballer. So far we've gained Foley, Thursty, King to our best 22 in the last 3 years. Under Spud we just wasted the rookie draft.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline mightytiges

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2007, 10:07:33 PM »
I always thought Mark Graham was a good get.  Who could forget his last game and against his old club to boot?
So did I Julz. He was no Kingsley or Knobel. Mark Graham did his job well for a cheap late pick. Thursty and especially McGuane were nowhere near ready for AFL footy and Graham filled the breach for a year.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

T2

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2007, 08:52:44 PM »
stripes your post was a long one so i wont bother quoting it

graham, bowden and knobel were all short-term fixes imo, yes they played decent footy at one time or another but where are they now? wallace needed results asap and instead of developing kids with some later picks he went for rejects who would get him a few more wins and get the blind faithful behind him which it did to some extent

kingsley "Almost every expert at the time heralded his recruitment to the Tigers as a masterstroke"

thats the funniest thing ive heard for a while  :lol, all i remember people doing when we recruited him was laughing and most geelong supporters were glad to see the back of him, you can use the injury excuse all you want but thats the price you pay for recruiting a 29yr old with tight hammies in the first place

schulz was up for trade at the end of the year so exactly what positive influence did kingsley have on our other key forwards? not much at all imo

the rookie draft isnt meant to be used as a back up insurance policy, its for kids who need development but we only took 1 kid and even he was still a reject, our list still has major holes and thats why the powers that be have tried to patch them up with bandaid rookie selections

theirs no point going over the past 4 drafts because that wasnt terry's job anyway, francis jackson has been doing the recruiting and although 05 so far has been a big dissapointment 06 and 07 have been much better

terry on the other hand is responsible for any senior players recruited and that is what im generally not happy about, even this year he couldnt help himself and had to get mcmahon at any cost when we have kids like connors showing plenty at hbf for the burgers, he is going to be under plenty of pressure and needs instant results thats why he cant wait a bit longer for connors to come good and needed mcmahon asap - typical wallace

its make or break for terry in 08

 :gotigers

Offline mightytiges

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2007, 10:27:06 PM »
theirs no point going over the past 4 drafts because that wasnt terry's job anyway, francis jackson has been doing the recruiting and although 05 so far has been a big dissapointment 06 and 07 have been much better
Francis has only done the last two drafts and helped Miller part-time in 2005. Miller did the 2004-5 drafts although from memory Greg Beck may have still been around for the 2004 one. Francis probably regreted not having pick 19 too as he loved Scott Selwood. A lesson in why you don't trade away top 20 picks. McMahon will forever be compared to what Scott Selwood does in his career.

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Offline Smokey

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2007, 10:50:05 PM »
stripes your post was a long one so i wont bother quoting it

graham, bowden and knobel were all short-term fixes imo, yes they played decent footy at one time or another but where are they now? wallace needed results asap and instead of developing kids with some later picks he went for rejects who would get him a few more wins and get the blind faithful behind him which it did to some extent

kingsley "Almost every expert at the time heralded his recruitment to the Tigers as a masterstroke"

thats the funniest thing ive heard for a while  :lol, all i remember people doing when we recruited him was laughing and most geelong supporters were glad to see the back of him, you can use the injury excuse all you want but thats the price you pay for recruiting a 29yr old with tight hammies in the first place

schulz was up for trade at the end of the year so exactly what positive influence did kingsley have on our other key forwards? not much at all imo

the rookie draft isnt meant to be used as a back up insurance policy, its for kids who need development but we only took 1 kid and even he was still a reject, our list still has major holes and thats why the powers that be have tried to patch them up with bandaid rookie selections

theirs no point going over the past 4 drafts because that wasnt terry's job anyway, francis jackson has been doing the recruiting and although 05 so far has been a big dissapointment 06 and 07 have been much better

terry on the other hand is responsible for any senior players recruited and that is what im generally not happy about, even this year he couldnt help himself and had to get mcmahon at any cost when we have kids like connors showing plenty at hbf for the burgers, he is going to be under plenty of pressure and needs instant results thats why he cant wait a bit longer for connors to come good and needed mcmahon asap - typical wallace

its make or break for terry in 08

 :gotigers
What crap!

Re: Graham, Bowden and Knobel.  Graham was only ever recruited to play 1 season while we began our list reconstruction.  He did a great job at minimal financial impact.  Bowden and Knobel were both recruited to fill yawning (courtesy of the Spud years) gaps in the critical 22-27 years age group.  Both had a positive impact in their initial season and fell victim to injury in their second.  Hardly the fault of TW's crystal ball.

Re: Kingsley.  Yes, most Geelong people at Geelong were happy to see the back of him, just like most Richmond people were happy to see the back of the laziest and softest big man in the league - B. Ottens.  Just because he went to a club were he became surrounded by good players that took the heat from him doesn't make him any better or worse, just more noticeable.  Same with Kingsley, he was recruited on nothing money to become our 3rd forward if needed, something he never ever had the luxury of being at Geelong.  Barring injury who knows what might have been, but again, don't blame TW or the crystal ball, the thinking and process was spot on.

Re: Schulz.  Hard to have an impact (Kingsley) when you are injured all season.  How about facing up to the fact Schulz is not up to it.  Pretty sure he was at the club before TW.

Re: Recent recruiting.  TW has had far less impact than you give him credit for and so, for that matter, has Francis Jackson.  The real driving force in the club's recruiting/list management over the last 5 years has been Greg Miller.  As the recruiter, Jackson is only responsible for identifying possible players to fill possible spots.  As the coach, Wallace is only responsible for identifying deficiencies and requirements in current team structures and roles.  As the director of football operations (among many other hats) Miller is responsible for the ongoing and long term development of the list, that transcends coaching dynasties and personalities ie. for the long term benefit of the club regardless of who is in control on game day.  Miller is the man holding the chips on draft day.

Re: McMahon.  He is the perfect recruit for our team at this stage of it's development/renaissance.  The blueprint for a successful team in modern day football is a core of match fit and experienced 22-27 year olds.  We have the worst list in the competition for these types of players.  Given the huge (unparalleled) turnover of our list over the last 4 (TW) years that was required to bring us into some sort of of competitive balance with the rest of the competition, we were left with a yawning gap of these essential core players.  Now that we are a couple of years down the rebuilding path and have some experience amongst our 'older' young players, it was time to redress the imbalance in the core group and McMahon (on paper) was an excellent fit.  Fast, skillful, relatively young and known to the coaching staff.  Doesn't get more risk free than that without exclusive access to a functioning crystal ball.  McMahon is the very reason Connors et al WILL come along.

Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to see the wood for the trees.

T2

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2007, 06:20:52 PM »
we know there is a gap in our mid tier group, still doesnt mean we need to go out and recruit other clubs mediocre 25 yr olds just to fill some gaps

i still cant beleive the amount of people using injury as an excuse for kingsley, 3rd forward or whatever the bloke was 29 coming off hamstring injurys and his body simple wasnt up to it to begin with

mcmahon was not needed because we have plenty of players who fit the bill in the position he plays and the price that we gave up for him was ridiculous going on his 07 form, just because he fits a certain age criteria shouldnt be the reason we give up a top 20 pick

our list is so deficient in rucks and big bodies but we go and recruit a lightly framed hbf  ???




Offline Smokey

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2007, 02:56:48 PM »
we know there is a gap in our mid tier group, still doesnt mean we need to go out and recruit other clubs mediocre 25 yr olds just to fill some gaps

Which mediocre 25 year old did we recruit this year?  (If your answer is McMahon then see my response below)

Quote
i still cant beleive the amount of people using injury as an excuse for kingsley, 3rd forward or whatever the bloke was 29 coming off hamstring injurys and his body simple wasnt up to it to begin with

Injury WAS the reason - why is that hard to believe?  The guy was in full training until he did a hammy, it all went downhill from there.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing but don't make the mistake of judging the decision once you know the outcome.  As I said earlier, the thinking was correct, the outcome wasn't.

Quote
mcmahon was not needed because we have plenty of players who fit the bill in the position he plays and the price that we gave up for him was ridiculous going on his 07 form, just because he fits a certain age criteria shouldnt be the reason we give up a top 20 pick

We actually have very few players who fit the bill in the position he plays.  He is mid 20's, match hardened, experienced, skillful and quick.  I would say we only have one that comes close - Newman - and he is not nearly as quick as McMahon.  His addition to the backline will stiffen it up considerably by decreasing our deficiency in pace, run and long skillful delivery.  Of course he might do a hammy pre-season and then you can say you were right all along!

Quote
our list is so deficient in rucks and big bodies but we go and recruit a lightly framed hbf  ???

Read the title of the post.  Kind of answers this doesn't it.  Big bodies rarely, if ever, come in the drafts, especially the kids.  Simmonds, Pattison, Cartledge, Graham, Putt all ruckmen types.  In addition, around the ground we have got taller - McGuane, Polak, Richo, Thursfield, Rance, JON, Schulz, Hughes, Silvester, Moore, probably others that don't spring to mind at the moment.  Depending on how these guys develop, we are on track for height, the big bodies will come naturally with time.

You have to appreciate all these decisions from the perspective of long term list repair and development.  Miller is doing exactly what he came to do and what desperately needed to be done.  Same as Wallace, doing exactly what he came to do in the only way it could be done.  Our renaissance will not be built in 1, 2, or even 3 seasons.  To be successful in the long term we must make the changes in a structured, balanced and patient manner.  Only then can we return to being the power club we all remember.

Patience Grasshopper!

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2007, 03:40:32 PM »
we know there is a gap in our mid tier group, still doesnt mean we need to go out and recruit other clubs mediocre 25 yr olds just to fill some gaps

Which mediocre 25 year old did we recruit this year?  (If your answer is McMahon then see my response below)

Quote
i still cant beleive the amount of people using injury as an excuse for kingsley, 3rd forward or whatever the bloke was 29 coming off hamstring injurys and his body simple wasnt up to it to begin with

Injury WAS the reason - why is that hard to believe?  The guy was in full training until he did a hammy, it all went downhill from there.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing but don't make the mistake of judging the decision once you know the outcome.  As I said earlier, the thinking was correct, the outcome wasn't.

Quote
mcmahon was not needed because we have plenty of players who fit the bill in the position he plays and the price that we gave up for him was ridiculous going on his 07 form, just because he fits a certain age criteria shouldnt be the reason we give up a top 20 pick

We actually have very few players who fit the bill in the position he plays.  He is mid 20's, match hardened, experienced, skillful and quick.  I would say we only have one that comes close - Newman - and he is not nearly as quick as McMahon.  His addition to the backline will stiffen it up considerably by decreasing our deficiency in pace, run and long skillful delivery.  Of course he might do a hammy pre-season and then you can say you were right all along!

Quote
our list is so deficient in rucks and big bodies but we go and recruit a lightly framed hbf  ???

Read the title of the post.  Kind of answers this doesn't it.  Big bodies rarely, if ever, come in the drafts, especially the kids.  Simmonds, Pattison, Cartledge, Graham, Putt all ruckmen types.  In addition, around the ground we have got taller - McGuane, Polak, Richo, Thursfield, Rance, JON, Schulz, Hughes, Silvester, Moore, probably others that don't spring to mind at the moment.  Depending on how these guys develop, we are on track for height, the big bodies will come naturally with time.

You have to appreciate all these decisions from the perspective of long term list repair and development.  Miller is doing exactly what he came to do and what desperately needed to be done.  Same as Wallace, doing exactly what he came to do in the only way it could be done.  Our renaissance will not be built in 1, 2, or even 3 seasons.  To be successful in the long term we must make the changes in a structured, balanced and patient manner.  Only then can we return to being the power club we all remember.

Patience Grasshopper!

This year we looked at Richards. We took Cartledge is is pretty close to the 'rubbish 25yoa' bracket. We also went after the 24 year old Greg Tivendale - Cam Howatt. This might not be massive mistakes, but we have a history of following Knobel types - C grade footballers in the mid age bracket.

We should be moving away from the Frawley type Morrison chasing. Graham was handy, yes - handy in comming 9th, perhaps not the best thing for the club long term? If we played Moore all those games perhaps we would know if he is going to make it not now, rather than going into his 7th pre-season at 24yoa and we still don't know if the kid is any chop.

Kingsley didnt make it somewhat because he was always off the track, but there are 2 major things you must try understand:
 - he had an aging body which was prone to getting hurt at that stage of his carrer, it was a very real risk before he was drafted
 - many people thought he simply wasnt much chop, topping up a developing list with an average 29 yoa. Rebuilding?

McMahon was intersting. If any of Pears, Ward, Selwood turn out superstars then we stuffed up, but it doesnt seem a bad move. If he can get to his 2006 form he will decent cog of our side.

If our renaissance does come around from drafting Howatt, Cartledge, Knobel, Kingley and co. then they should be applauded as heros. However, at the current moment in type they are very questionable selections.

I still beleive the long term future of the club might have been better served chasinh a different type of player.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2007, 05:53:12 PM »
If we had got Gourdis at pick 19 and McMahon in the PSD then we wouldn't care.
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Offline Smokey

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Re: 15 Tigers over 190cm
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2007, 06:54:48 PM »
This year we looked at Richards. We took Cartledge is is pretty close to the 'rubbish 25yoa' bracket. We also went after the 24 year old Greg Tivendale - Cam Howatt. This might not be massive mistakes, but we have a history of following Knobel types - C grade footballers in the mid age bracket.

We should be moving away from the Frawley type Morrison chasing. Graham was handy, yes - handy in comming 9th, perhaps not the best thing for the club long term? If we played Moore all those games perhaps we would know if he is going to make it not now, rather than going into his 7th pre-season at 24yoa and we still don't know if the kid is any chop.

Kingsley didnt make it somewhat because he was always off the track, but there are 2 major things you must try understand:
 - he had an aging body which was prone to getting hurt at that stage of his carrer, it was a very real risk before he was drafted
 - many people thought he simply wasnt much chop, topping up a developing list with an average 29 yoa. Rebuilding?

McMahon was intersting. If any of Pears, Ward, Selwood turn out superstars then we stuffed up, but it doesnt seem a bad move. If he can get to his 2006 form he will decent cog of our side.

If our renaissance does come around from drafting Howatt, Cartledge, Knobel, Kingley and co. then they should be applauded as heros. However, at the current moment in type they are very questionable selections.

I still beleive the long term future of the club might have been better served chasinh a different type of player.

It's all about list re-structuring and development.  Managing an AFL list would have to be one of the hardest juggling acts around and when you compound that by trying to come back from many years of pee poor list management then the job was always going to be just that much harder.  It is very easy to make the mistake of looking at each selection/trade/delistment as an isolated case and make a judgement that doesn't reflect the worth of the original decision.

With regard to the players you mention above:

Richards/Cartledge - this season highlighted a lack of genuine ruck height on our list when we were exposed through injury.  We had to take immediate steps to redress that because it would have been bad management to trust in the 2008 gods.  No good ruck prospects were available in the PSD, Putt was a good get in the ND, Richards couldn't be rookied, Cartledge is AFL (body wise) ready, and is the cheapest possible form of insurance against 2007 revisited.  Simmonds, Patto, Graham, Putt all stand up - Cartledge not required, costs us bugger all but if........... then we don't have the farce of Polak, Richo and Tuck having to ruck.  A very sound decision if you ask me.

Howat - he disappointed this season after showing some promise as a rookie in 2006 and apparently training the house down over summer.  Subsequently he was delisted but invited to train on.  After the draft dust had settled the club would have noticed that we only had one experienced/match hardened of the 'Tivendale' types that are genuine receivers.  Like him or not, Tiv has a role in the structure and balance of the team and most teams have one or more of his type.  We have already identified the lack of core players in our list, think 2007 and Tiv goes down, we have no-one ready made to step into the role.  Howat has already played a number of senior games, is older (especially body-wise) to cope with an increased role, comes as insurance at the bargain basement price of rookie, and allows the club to see if he can learn from last season and show the potential he had shown previously.  Another decision I have no problem with.

Graham - drafting him was exactly the opposite of the Frawley years.  Spud was all about drafting castaways and has beens to fill perceived small gaps in what was considered a list "one small forward" away from a flag.  In his era the Morrison types were drafted to take up key critical list positions with little consideration to the long term effect or possibilities of failure.  The Graham choice was exactly the opposite.  Miller realised we were light on for strength and experience after phase one of our list cull.  Graham was recruited at bottom dollar price to look after some of these kids as they took their first tentative AFL steps.  Both him and the club were under no illusion that it was anything else and from the club's perspective it received terrific service/value from him.  Moore had not shown anywhere near enough form or maturity to suggest that he was capable of stepping up in that season.  Another good decision to suit the time/situation.

Kingsley - yet another who was recruited as a very cheap insurance to 'poo happening'.  Yes, he had been injury prone in the past, yes he had a chequered career form wise, but due to the ongoing list cull we had become a very very young list.  An injury to Richo and/or Pettifer would have been catastrophic, especially with Browny already out.  2007 was a harsh reminder of the risk of having no Plan B.  Kingsley stands up (and remember that clubs put all potential draftees through stringent medicals prior nowadays), we have a more potent forward line or we have Plan B, either way it would have been looked back on as a sound decision.  Hindsight says he didn't stand up but I am looking at the decision from a forward looking perspective and it was sound.

McMahon - I will answer this one with a question.  If pick # 92 becomes the next Chris Judd then should we be down on every list manager and recruiter that overlooked him?  Drafting is a very inexact science with little chance of success and much chance of failure.  We had a gap in our list that badly needed filling, McMahon has all the attributes to fill the gap and fit the game plan, Wallace and Royal have both coached him and know him, he has no history of injury problems.  Much less risk in using a draft choice for him, especially when he immediately fills a list hole.  I'm more than happy with this decision.

Renaissance - this will come about over an extended period of time after making many, many decisions.  The key to success will be making more right than wrong, especially at the appropriate times.  Height, age, skill, attitude, salary, harmony - all these are just some of the factors to be considered when building and maintaining a list and thats where it gets very frustrating to hear supporters can a decision or bag a player based on the supporter's needs for immediate gratification.  Any Tiger supporter who thinks that we are failing or that last year was a step back is not looking at the bigger picture.  A horrible cliche I know but thats how it is.  I have barracked for the Tigers for nearly 50 years, have ridden the highs and lows, but in the last 20 years I have never been more confident than now that we are finally taking positive, concrete steps to climb out of the pit we dug for ourselves with our arrogance and failure to face reality.