How to rebuild a list

[one-eyed]

The AFL site has both Geelong and Hawthorn's lists up on it and how they were (re)built including where each of the respective 22 tomorrow were drafted/traded. As they are the benchmarks we can compare them to us and where we are at and need to get to:

First up is Geelong's mostly mature 22

1995
Darren Milburn – AFL Draft (No.48)

1997
Matthew Scarlett – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.45)

1998
Tom Harley – Exchange period (traded by Port Adelaide)
David Wojcinski – AFL Draft (No.24)

1999
Cameron Mooney – Exchange period (traded by North Melbourne)
Joel Corey – AFL Draft (No.8 )
Paul Chapman – AFL Draft (No.31)
Cameron Ling – AFL Draft (No.38)
Corey Enright – AFL Draft (No.47)

2000
Josh Hunt – AFL Draft (No.44)
Max Rooke – AFL Rookie Draft (No.41) – promoted to senior list 2002

2001
Gary Ablett – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.40)
Jimmy Bartel – AFL Draft (No.
James Kelly – AFL Draft (No.17)
Steve Johnson – AFL Draft (No.24)
David Johnson – AFL Draft (No.81)

2002
Andrew Mackie – AFL Draft (No.7)
Shannon Byrnes – AFL Rookie Draft (No.40) – promoted to senior list 2004

2003
Mark Blake – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.38)
Kane Tenace – AFL Draft (No.7)

2004
Brad Ottens – Exchange period (traded by Richmond)
Nathan Ablett – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.48)
Brent Prismall – AFL Draft (No.32)
Matthew Egan – AFL Draft (No.62)

2005
Travis Varcoe – AFL Draft (No.15)
Trent West – AFL Draft (No.31)
Ryan Gamble – AFL Draft (No.47)
Mathew Stokes – AFL Draft (No.61)

2006
Tom Hawkins – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.41)
Joel Selwood – AFL Draft (No.7)
Nathan Djerrkura – AFL Draft (No.25)
Simon Hogan – AFL Draft (No.57)
Liam Bedford – AFL Rookie Draft (No.23)
Jason Davenport – AFL Rookie Draft (No.38) – promoted to senior list 2007
* Tom Lonergan – AFL Rookie Draft (No.50) – promoted to senior list 2007

2007
Adam Donohue – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.60)
Harry Taylor – AFL Draft (No.17)
Dawson Simpson – AFL Draft (No.34)
Scott Simpson – AFL Draft (No.44)
Dan McKenna – AFL Draft (No.50)
Brodie Moles – AFL Rookie Draft (No.16)
Jeremy Laidler – AFL Rookie Draft (No.32)
Chris Kangars – AFL Rookie Draft (No.46)
Shane Mumford – AFL Rookie Draft (No.57)

Notes:
* For players who have been recruited by Geelong or another club more than once, it includes their most recent draft/trade acquisition
* Lonergan was originally drafted in the 2002 AFL Draft (No.23)

Full description at:
http://www.afl.com.au/News/NEWSARTICLE/tabid/208/Default.aspx?newsId=68280

[one-eyed]

HOW THE 2008 HAWTHORN LIST WAS BUILT

1991
Shane Crawford – AFL Draft (No.13)

1999
Tim Clarke – AFL Draft (No.33)
Chance Bateman – AFL Draft (No.48)

2000
Mark Williams – AFL Draft (No.43)
Robert Campbell – AFL Rookie Draft (No.27) – promoted to senior list 2001

2001
Luke Hodge – AFL Draft (No.1)
Rick Ladson – AFL Draft (No.16)
Campbell Brown – AFL Draft (No.32)
Sam Mitchell – AFL Draft (No.36)

2002
Tim Boyle – AFL Draft (No.51)
Brad Sewell – AFL Rookie Draft (No.7) – promoted to senior list 2003
* Michael Osborne – AFL Rookie Draft (No.23) – promoted to senior list 2003

2003
* Trent Croad – Exchange period (traded by Fremantle)
Danny Jacobs – Exchange period (traded by Essendon)
Zac Dawson – AFL Draft (No.41)

2004
Jarryd Roughead – AFL Draft (No.2)
Lance Franklin – AFL Draft (No.5)
Jordan Lewis – AFL Draft (No.7)
Tom Murphy – AFL Draft (No.21)
Simon Taylor – AFL Draft (No.53)
Clinton Young – AFL Rookie Draft (No.18) – promoted to senior list 2005

2005
Travis Tuck – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.38)
Xavier Ellis – AFL Draft (No.3)
Beau Dowler – AFL Draft (No.6)
Grant Birchall – AFL Draft (No.14)
Max Bailey – AFL Draft (No.18)
Beau Muston – AFL Draft (No.22)
Brent Guerra – AFL Pre-Season Draft (No.3)
Luke McEntee – AFL Rookie Draft (No.3) – promoted to senior list 2007
*Stephen Gilham – AFL Rookie Draft (No.34) – promoted to senior list 2006
Ben McGlynn – AFL Rookie Draft (No.55) – promoted to senior list 2006

2006
Josh Kennedy – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.40)
Mitch Thorp – AFL Draft (No.6)
Brent Renouf – AFL Draft (No.24)
Jarryd Morton – AFL Draft (No.33)
Garry Moss – AFL Draft (No.56)
Matthew Suckling – AFL Rookie Draft (No.22)

2007
Cyril Rioli – AFL Draft (No.12)
Brendan Whitecross – AFL Draft (No.29)
Stuart Dew – AFL Draft (No.45)
Hugh Sandilands – AFL Rookie Draft (No.11)
Tim Walsh – AFL Rookie Draft (No.27)
Alex Grima – AFL Rookie Draft (No.42)
Cameron Stokes – AFL Rookie Draft (No.54)

Notes:
* For players who have been recruited by Hawthorn or another club more than once, it includes their most recent draft/trade acquisition
* Croad was originally drafted in the 1997 AFL Draft (No.3)
* Osborne was originally drafted in the 2000 AFL Rookie Draft (No.11)
* Gilham was originally drafted in the 2002 AFL Draft (No.16)

http://www.afl.com.au/News/NEWSARTICLE/tabid/208/Default.aspx?newsId=68273

[one-eyed]

Here's our list: - Tivs and Hyde are included but we know they're gone. The bold is a rough best 22 in terms of most games played this year.

1992
Matthew Richardson – Father/Son selection

1995
Joel Bowden - Father/Son selection

1998
Greg Tivendale - AFL Rookie Draft (No.20) - promoted to senior list 1999

2000
Kayne Pettifer – AFL Draft (No.9)
Mark Coughlan - AFL Draft (No.26)
Chris Newman - AFL Draft (No.53)

2001
*Chris Hyde - AFL Draft (No.68)

2002
Kane Johnson - Exchange period (traded by Adelaide)
Jay Schulz – AFL Draft (No.12)
Kelvin Moore – AFL Rookie Draft (No.3) – promoted to senior list 2004

2003
Nathan Brown – Exchange period (traded by Western Bulldogs)
Daniel Jackson – AFL Draft (No.53)
Shane Tuck - AFL Draft (No.73)
Andrew Raines - AFL Draft (No.76)
Nathan Foley – AFL Rookie Draft (No.4) – promoted to senior list 2005

2004
Troy Simmonds - Exchange period (traded by Fremantle)
Brett Deledio – AFL Draft (No.1)
Richard Tambling – AFL Draft (No.4)
Danny Meyer – AFL Draft (No.12)
Adam Pattison – AFL Draft (No.16)
Dean Polo – AFL Draft (No.20)
Luke McGuane - AFL Draft (No.36)
Will Thursfield – AFL Rookie Draft (No.1) – promoted to senior list 2005


2005
Jarryd Oakley-Nicholls – AFL Draft (No.
Cleve Hughes – AFL Draft (No.24)
Travis Casserly – AFL Draft (No.40)
Matthew White – AFL Pre-Season Draft (No.5)
Angus Graham – AFL Rookie Draft (No.5) – promoted to senior list 2008


2006
Graham Polak - Exchange period (traded by Fremantle)
Jack Riewoldt – AFL Draft (No.13)
Shane Edwards – AFL Draft (No.26)
Daniel Connors – AFL Draft (No.58)
Andrew Collins – AFL Draft (No.71)
Jake King – AFL Rookie Draft (No.24) - promoted to senior list 2007

2007
Jordan McMahon - Exchange period (traded by Western Bulldogs)
Mitch Morton - Exchange period (traded by West Coast)
Trent Cotchin – AFL Draft (No.2)
Alex Rance – AFL Draft (No.18)
Dean Putt – AFL Draft (No.51)
David Gourdis - AFL Pre-Season Draft (No.1)
*Clayton Collard – AFL Rookie Draft (No.1)
Jarrod Silvester – AFL Rookie Draft (No.17)
*Tristan Cartledge – AFL Rookie Draft (No.33)
*Cam Howat - AFL Rookie Draft (No.47)

Notes:
* For players who have been recruited by Richmond or another club more than once, it includes their most recent draft/trade acquisition
* Hyde was originally drafted in the 2000 AFL Draft (No.41)
* Carltedge was originally drafted in the 2002 AFL Draft (No.28)
* Collard was originally drafted in the 2006 AFL Draft (No.31)
* Howat was originally drafted in the 2005 AFL Rookie Draft (No.36)

[Gracie]

Both teams did very well out of the 2001 draft 

[Smokey]

This all makes interesting reading, especially when considering the relative starting points of each coach and rebuilding phase.

Thompson took over in 2000 and took 8 years to reach/win the flag.  He started off with 5 of his 2007 premiership team already at the club and then recruited 5, 2, 4, 2, 0, 2, 1, 1 in the ensuing years to a flag.

Clarkson took over in 2005 and took 4 years to reach a grand final.  He started off with 11 of his 2008 grand final team already at the club and then recruited 4, 4, 1, 2 in the ensuing years to a grand final.

Wallace took over in 2005 and hasn't reached a final.  He started off with 10 of his current 'best 22' already at the club and has since recruited 6, 1, 2, 3 in his ensuing years.

Where the Hawthorn and Richmond situations diverge is in the make up of the 'starting group'.  Hawthorn had 9 of 11 players that started in 2002 or earlier so almost all of Clarkson's starting group had at least 3 years development under their belt.  Richmond had 5 of 10 players that started in 2002 or earlier so only half of Wallace's starting group had more than 3 years development under their belt.

If you apply the same scenario to Geelong (counting back from 2007, Thompson is coach for 4 years to reach a grand final) then he had 16 of his grand final team already at the club, with 10 of those having at least 3 years development.

Makes it hard to judge Wallace harshly against the other 2 and if Geelong can give Thompson 8 years from his start point then it's even harder to see how Wallace won't be given more time.

[tigersalive]

Gee that 1999-2001 draft period is even more depressing after looking at Hawthorn and Geelongs results.   

[Francois Jackson]

yes which is why mistakes like recruting Mcmahon should not have happened.

Too valuable those picks but to to have this idiot on our list makes me sick.

Skinny useless players who are a dime a dozen in the AFL and we use a top 20 pick. Thats stuffed.

i mean whose next Farren Ray or Warnock.

Ill tell you how also to rebuild a list. get it right FFS not pick up your meyers, JON's or patterson's. Was that spud too was it??

Our development and recruting is our main problem. Why have we got players like JON and Meyer still playing at our footy club. They are stuffin poo. Full stop.

Why have we got a team full of tooth picks. Cant wait for Rance to play. He is a big bodied unit, exactly what we need.

[mightytiges]

Clarkson in his aftergame speech mentioned how crucial their "2001" group and those already at the club before he arrived were to their premiership win.

Curious to see what order the Hawks did rebuild their list despite their spin. They didn't build around talls first. 1999-2002 were mostly mids. Only ruckman Campbell was a tall that ended up in their premiership side. Williams plays as a leading midsized forward. Their spine KPPs actually came after the mids. Forwards Buddy and Roughead in 2004 of course and then their KPP defenders in 2005 - Birchall and then Gilham from Port. Chuck in Croad too from 2003 who they got back from Freo although he didn't last long today with his foot. They killed the rookie draft that's for sure - Campbell, Sewell, Osborne, Young (BOG today before he copped that injury) and Gilham.

One other thing that stands out is how both Geelong and Hawthorn 22s have hardly any traded players. Geelong picked up Harley and Mooney almost 10 years ago but apart from Otto every other player under Thompson was drafted. Same for Hawthorn. Only Croad was traded back for and that was under Schwab. Gilham, Guerra and Dew came from other clubs due to Clarkson's time at Port but they were all drafted cheaply.

[one-eyed]

This is Hawk list manager Chris Pelchen's rating of the Hawks' list at the end of 2007. Yeah it's Hawthorn and biased but still a good read especially in light of their premiership..



He started with a few simple stats showing that we (Hawks) are the youngest list. Matches played we average 48.1 (total games of 2116) compared to Fremantle 76.5 (tg 3364). Geelong had an average of 55.8 (tg 2456). He noted that none of the top 5 (Freo, Mel, St k, WB and Ess) played finals.

He then proceeded to explain how the evaluate. Every AFL player on every list are rated as follows:
1 - Elite player (outstanding player of the AFL)
2 - Highly talented (very good player)
3 - Core player (likely to play mostly senior footy)
4A - improving player but not yet at AFL standard eg a well performed 1st yr draftee that hasn't played senior footy
4B - A below std player or declining or aging player.
5 - developing player eg rookie

in 2005 he rated our list as only having 2*1's and 4*2's. He thought we had 8 in the 4B category.

In 2007 mid season he rated our list as follows:
1 2 3 4A 4B 5
3 5 20 4 2 6

He rated Geelong's list as follows
5 6 20 4 1 3

His average talent ratings were as follows (lower the number the better):
Hawks 3.12 vs Geelong 2.87 vs WCE 2.97 vs Carlton 3.38

He rated the Saints to have the most talented list in 05 and 06 and said their window is now closed. He then rated the premiership teams from 05 and 06. He rated them as follows:
           1 2   3 4A 4B 5
WCE 06 4 7 10  0 1 0
Syd 05  2 8 12  0 0 0

The averages of premiers since he has been keeping records were as follows:
  1   2   3   4A 4B   5
4.6 8.2 8.4 0.6 0.2  0

He then also stated that he thought the Bris 01-04 lists were better than Geelongs but they were able to obtain this through players sacrificing the money for the team.

He then went on and spoke about how poor our kicking efficiency was when he arrived in 05 (76.2% rank 16th). This combined with our low average height and weight meant we needed a list overhaul. In 2007 we were in the top 4.

Our drafting and trading has been to address the kicking efficiency and size of the squad.

Our other issue was our TPP in 05. We were paying 24.9% of our salary to players ranked 4 compared to Brisbane who were paying 8.1% to their 4's. Our average player payment to the 4's was 137000 compared to Brisbanes 72000. In 2007 our 4's are receiving only 5.9% of TPP.

In 2005, he rated only 10 players (Roughead, Ladson, Brown, Mitchell, Franklin, Williams, Croad, Hodge and Lewis - I missed one sorry) as being capable of playing in our next premiership. This list has obviously changed since then.

Key targets of our recruiting where then discussed with a view to fielding a side on mainly 1's, 2's and 3's with the spine being mainly 1's. He has specifically targetted the deficiencies that he identified in 05 and stressed that we are not finished yet. I did get the impression though that this year we will be more selective in targetting specific positions rather than the best available. Did not mention which type we still required (eg crumber).

He concluded by saying that all players recruited must fit the following criteria which brought us back to the culture issue which he started off with.

1 Character - intelligence, leadership, and a team first attitude;
2 kicking - must be rated at least good or better; and
3 competitiveness - must have a high level of determination.

[Francois Jackson]

This all makes interesting reading, especially when considering the relative starting points of each coach and rebuilding phase.

Thompson took over in 2000 and took 8 years to reach/win the flag.  He started off with 5 of his 2007 premiership team already at the club and then recruited 5, 2, 4, 2, 0, 2, 1, 1 in the ensuing years to a flag.

Clarkson took over in 2005 and took 4 years to reach a grand final.  He started off with 11 of his 2008 grand final team already at the club and then recruited 4, 4, 1, 2 in the ensuing years to a grand final.

Wallace took over in 2005 and hasn't reached a final.  He started off with 10 of his current 'best 22' already at the club and has since recruited 6, 1, 2, 3 in his ensuing years.

Where the Hawthorn and Richmond situations diverge is in the make up of the 'starting group'.  Hawthorn had 9 of 11 players that started in 2002 or earlier so almost all of Clarkson's starting group had at least 3 years development under their belt.  Richmond had 5 of 10 players that started in 2002 or earlier so only half of Wallace's starting group had more than 3 years development under their belt.

If you apply the same scenario to Geelong (counting back from 2007, Thompson is coach for 4 years to reach a grand final) then he had 16 of his grand final team already at the club, with 10 of those having at least 3 years development.

Makes it hard to judge Wallace harshly against the other 2 and if Geelong can give Thompson 8 years from his start point then it's even harder to see how Wallace won't be given more time.

with all due respect thats crap.

do you think that its a given once all those players reach their 4th year development they will turn out to be guns and win us a flag.

its how recruiting thats the problem. these skinny rubbish players are a waste of stuffin time and will get you nowhere.

its funny that i read you mention cats/hawks didnt recruit any of their starting 22 whereas since Wallace arrvied he has recruited Kingsley, M Graham, Mcmahon, whilst keeping duds like Pettifer and JON on the list, till they are worthless.

Lids aside weather you like to admit it or not the 2003 draft was a FAILURE. One big stuffin FAILURE.
5 stuffin picks inside the top 20 and we got one right. Thats the bottom line. What the stuff were these guys thinking with Polo, Pattison and Tambling.

Premierships are won at the draft table not when players reach their 70-100 games.

What makes you think when Tambling, Meyer, etc reach 100 games they will get this team into finals for a premiership chance.



 

[tigersalive]

Minor technicality, but it was the 2004 draft, not 2003.

[Francois Jackson]

Minor technicality, but it was the 2004 draft, not 2003.

since you brought it up lets discuss the 2003 draft shall we.

alex gilmour
tom Roach
Nathan Brown
Shane Morrison
Hartigan

i see the same mistakes have been made with our recruiting before TW came and after.

Recycling those duds and some of the players we have recruited have been stuffin disgraceful

[Infamy]

We also got Jackson & Raines out of 2003
Plus Nathan Foley out of the rookie draft
Possibly Kel Moore too, but that may have been 2002

[Smokey]

with all due respect thats crap.

I presume you are talking about the last sentence?  The rest of the post was actually all just statistical fact.

do you think that its a given once all those players reach their 4th year development they will turn out to be guns and win us a flag.

No, I don't believe that nor did I say that or even allude to that anywhere in my post, and again, the only part of my post that was opinion was the last sentence.

its how recruiting thats the problem. these skinny rubbish players are a waste of effin time and will get you nowhere.

Your opinion but I disagree that we have recruited skinny rubbish players.  I believe we have recruited kids who will grow and develop into stronger and more capable footballers but I also believe that we will not be right 100% of the time - just like Hawthorn and Geelong.

its funny that i read you mention cats/hawks didnt recruit any of their starting 22

Where did I say anything like that?  I suggest you take a course in grade 3 English and learn to read and comprehend.

Lids aside weather you like to admit it or not the 2003 draft was a FAILURE. One big effin FAILURE.
5 effin picks inside the top 20 and we got one right. Thats the bottom line. What the eff were these guys thinking with Polo, Pattison and Tambling.

Building the midfield first, then building the rest of the team around them.  Hawks already had the midfield when Clarkson took over, he just finished the job.  Wallace didn't have that luxury, he started from scratch and is building his team exactly the same way Geelong and Hawthorn and West Coast did - get an abundance of quality midfielders then fill in the blanks.  Deledio, Tambling, Polo and Meyer - 4 potential midfielders out of the 5 picks - won't get them all right but 2 are, 1 is borderline and 1 is an unknown.  Thats the best you could hope for unless you are an unrealistic proponent of the knee-jerk reaction.

Premierships are won at the draft table not when players reach their 70-100 games.

What a weird comment.

What makes you think when Tambling, Meyer, etc reach 100 games they will get this team into finals for a premiership chance.

Again, where did I say that, or anything even remotely like that?  All I said was that given the relative starting points and tenures of Thompson, Clarkson and Wallace then it would be unfair to judge him harshly based on these statistical facts.  Nothing more, nothing less.  How you managed to turn that into one of your pet rants about Wallace, Pettifer, McMahon et al is beyond me but then again, I shouldn't be surprised.  The sooner you learn to post without misrepresenting other posters and trying to then pass that misrepresentation off as proof of your indefensible point then the closer you will get to having even one poofteenth of a modicum of credibility.

[Francois Jackson]

We also got Jackson & Raines out of 2003
Plus Nathan Foley out of the rookie draft
Possibly Kel Moore too, but that may have been 2002

Raines is for the tip.
Jackosn has proved SFA

Nathan not even in that draft.

try again