Tigers list strategy hasn’t worked: Frawley .... (Herald-Sun)

[one-eyed]

Tigers list strategy hasn’t worked: Frawley

Herald-Sun
17 April 2016


FORMER Richmond coach Danny Frawley says the Tigers are too reliant on their top six players and a Hawthorn-style rebuild hasn’t worked.

Richmond suffered its third loss of the season on Friday night, going down to West Coast by 68 points.

Frawley said Richmond tried to emulate Hawthorn by recruiting players including Troy Chaplin, Ivan Maric, Bachar Houli, Taylor Hunt and this season Chris Yarran in its bid to rise up the ladder.

“Yarran hasn’t played, but the other guys got them from 10th to eighth to seventh, but then there’s no improvement in those players now,” Frawley told Triple M radio.

“So they’ve actually taken up a lot of list and games in youngsters and they’ve relied on them to get to a certain level and they’re too reliant on their best six players.

“You’ve got to be careful. Hawthorn could afford to get Brian Lake, no one else wanted Brian Lake, but they can afford to take that risk because they’re already up there.

“Richmond tried to climb up and get them in and they got in the finals, but the facts, the last three years, they’ve performed miserably in their first final. They’re too reliant on their best six players.

“(Alex) Rance, (Trent) Cotchin and (Jack) Riewoldt they were all good, then throw in (Dustin) Martin and (Brandon) Ellis, whose form has been down on the last couple of years and (Brett) Deledio hasn’t played, so too reliant on six players.”

Former Richmond chief executive Steven Wright has blamed poor drafting a decade ago and more recent trade mistakes for the club’s current predicament.

Wright, who was in charge of the club from 2004 to 2009, and was involved in the process of appointing Damien Hardwick, said it was too easy to simply blame the senior coach for Tigers’ poor start to 2016.

“To be successful, you need resources, money, good quality coaching and a strong playing list,” Wright told AFL Live.

“And I think Richmond is still struggling with its playing list.

“That all goes back to the 2004 (national) draft. In that draft we had five players in the top 20, and we’ve only got one player from the top 20 who is still there.

“We are lacking that five or six really good players who are 28 years of age and who has been in the system for 10 years. We’ve got some good young kids and we’ve got (Brett) Deledio, but we are lacking in the middle.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/richmond/richmonds-recruiting-strategy-hasnt-worked-says-former-tigers-coach-danny-frawley/news-story/a03254510148acb3aa066d2445ff5882

[Stalin]

Grigg
Houli
Hampson
Chaplin

All in that age range

Moneyball

[Hard Roar Tiger]

Martin, Jack, Rance, Lids, Cotchin, Edwards
Top talent
Grimes, Vlas, Miles, Houli, maric, Lloyd, Lambert
Good supporting cast
Ellis, Vickery, Conca, Yarran
Under performing talent
McIntosh, Ellis, Menadue, Lennon, Rioli
Emerging talent
Short, Castagna, McBean, Butler
Need games

There's enough talent here.
It needs development and a quality game plan.

[big tone]

I dislike this group of retreads as much as most (Grigg, Houli, Chaplin, Hunt and Hampson) but they were brought in when they were for a reason and it worked at the time. It was suppose to give the kids time to develop that we were drafting. They were never expected to be premiership players in my opinion. The RFC want to advance up the ladder while we were rebuilding and I'll give credit where it's due that this is what was achieved.
Dimma needed to slowly weed them as he went along and introduce kids but he failed to do that probably for a couple of reasons- poor recruiting and idiocy.

That's why IMO BH did his job those years ago. That doesn't excuse his recent selections but I find it hard to believe he was the only person that had a say on the likes of Hunt, Townsend, Moore and even Hampson. Do we all think FJ and his team and DH and his coaches don't get a say in any of this.

At the end of the day they are all recruits and FJ would have more than his fair share of input. The club without actually saying it had probably lost a bit of faith in FJ and his team to find anyone past the first round so went down the "tried" path to at least gain players that could help now.

Development and coaching has to be questioned too but good players will always be good players even if old Claw was coaching them.

The whole footy department needs to be refreshed and it needs to happen starting now. It doesn't matter who we all blame, it's evident that changes need to be made. We are stuck with Dimma for 3 more years, he would be a complete idiot if he didn't request himself that changes to the recruiting side of the business needed to change.

But he would be an even bigger idiot if he didn't look in his own backyard as well. Starting with his outdated game plan/style.

[MintOnLamb]

I find it amazing that Carlton and Ess are looking better than us in intensity, game plan and even player depth.
I have been ranting about our list for some time, we pick up potential players and seem to end up with nothing.
We need to sack our whole list management team and get someone in who knows what they are doing.

[Hard Roar Tiger]

I find it amazing that Carlton and Ess are looking better than us in intensity, game plan and even player depth.
I have been ranting about our list for some time, we pick up potential players and seem to end up with nothing.
We need to sack our whole list management team and get someone in who knows what they are doing.

Perhaps it's because those clubs have new coaches which brings a renewal of energy and freshness to the playing group?

[WA Tiger]

I find it amazing that Carlton and Ess are looking better than us in intensity, game plan and even player depth.
I have been ranting about our list for some time, we pick up potential players and seem to end up with nothing.
We need to sack our whole list management team and get someone in who knows what they are doing.

You can add St Kilda, Lions, GWS, GCS, Melbourne and the Bulldogs to that list.

[Chuck17]

I find it amazing that Carlton and Ess are looking better than us in intensity, game plan and even player depth.
I have been ranting about our list for some time, we pick up potential players and seem to end up with nothing.
We need to sack our whole list management team and get someone in who knows what they are doing.

You can add St Kilda, Lions, GWS, GCS, Melbourne and the Bulldogs to that list.

Need to also add some VFL teams to that list

[WilliamPowell]

That's why IMO BH did his job those years ago. That doesn't excuse his recent selections but I find it hard to believe he was the only person that had a say on the likes of Hunt, Townsend, Moore and even Hampson. Do we all think FJ and his team and DH and his coaches don't get a say in any of this.

This is where you and I have and continue to disagree

Yes I agree that Hatley's original decision to bring in Houli & Grigg were the right calls at the time. But recommending long term extensions after their initial contracts were not. The Hampson decision no matter how you pitch it was not a good decision based on what we gave up for him. That was again a Hartley decision recommendation. He rates all of our players and those on other lists. He is the one who said he was worth a 2nd rounder. And you can blame Richardson too, he backed Hartley all the way on this

Regarding your comment that Jackson has a say on the trading of or recruitment of delisted free agent, my opinion based on what has been explained to me is no he doesn't. He gets advised of who they are looking and then has to present data collated by the recruiters of who is likely to be around in the Nat draft and/or PSD at that pick. The list management team headed by Hartley then signs off on whether they take the player or the pick. Can anyone explain to me why Hartley not Richardson is the head of the List management committee?

Jackson has no say in players getting contract extensions. Do you really believe he had any input in Hunt getting 2 years at the end of last season?

I said my opinion / view is based on what has been explained to me and the person who did he explaining was Hartley himself, not Jackson, not Richardason but Hartley. I have sat through not 1 but 3 talks where he has gone over these things and it never changes. He even jokes about how much he upsets the recruiters when he takes their picks away. Joking or not based on what we see with the recycles we bring in we make bad choices and sacrifice picks in the process

Wouldn't you have preferred to see Castagna promoted (a Jackson pick I might add) to the senior list than Hunt get an extension? Would think the answer is yes.

I also know how heavily involved in player contracts Hartley is. Have said before he has too much influence on too many things

So I have no problem whacking him for the things he has got wrong. And I believe in the last 3 since he was given more authority at the club he has made some absolute howlers, more than the recruiters.

And Yes Our recruiters have made some poor decision / selections that's not in dispute and they deserve the whacks they cop. But to whack them for things they've had no input in is wrong

[(•))(©™]

A spud weighing in on a spud

[(•))(©™]

Potato journalism

[tdy]

I another thread I did a little analysis on the rookies vs National draft and if we take the 1st round pick out our rookie draft does as well or better in the number of games played in 3 out of 5 years.  I ignored the last 2 drafts as they havent played out yet.

We have a serious National Draft problem at the club, we rarely pick good 2nd rounders or below.  If that is the problem then we need to either find another recruiting dept, be it Jackson or Hartley who has to go or both OR we trade out all our 2nd rnd picks and below for a second first round pick and do that each year.  Our talent levels coming in are poor.  I advocate replacing some of our recruiting dept because even the first rounders are hit and miss.  Maybe move BH back to opposition list analyst and find another head of recruiting and list management. 

Jackson has had many years to get it right and he gets only average or below results even now when his dept is fully resourced.  It's a big call for Benny to make but if the club is going to win a premiership, he identified that Which ever way you build, build from the bottom, recruit experience etc you have to do it well.  We aren't recruiting young players well.

[big tone]

That's why IMO BH did his job those years ago. That doesn't excuse his recent selections but I find it hard to believe he was the only person that had a say on the likes of Hunt, Townsend, Moore and even Hampson. Do we all think FJ and his team and DH and his coaches don't get a say in any of this.

This is where you and I have and continue to disagree

Yes I agree that Hatley's original decision to bring in Houli & Grigg were the right calls at the time. But recommending long term extensions after their initial contracts were not. The Hampson decision no matter how you pitch it was not a good decision based on what we gave up for him. That was again a Hartley decision recommendation. He rates all of our players and those on other lists. He is the one who said he was worth a 2nd rounder. And you can blame Richardson too, he backed Hartley all the way on this

Regarding your comment that Jackson has a say on the trading of or recruitment of delisted free agent, my opinion based on what has been explained to me is no he doesn't. He gets advised of who they are looking and then has to present data collated by the recruiters of who is likely to be around in the Nat draft and/or PSD at that pick. The list management team headed by Hartley then signs off on whether they take the player or the pick. Can anyone explain to me why Hartley not Richardson is the head of the List management committee?

Jackson has no say in players getting contract extensions. Do you really believe he had any input in Hunt getting 2 years at the end of last season?

I said my opinion / view is based on what has been explained to me and the person who did he explaining was Hartley himself, not Jackson, not Richardason but Hartley. I have sat through not 1 but 3 talks where he has gone over these things and it never changes. He even jokes about how much he upsets the recruiters when he takes their picks away. Joking or not based on what we see with the recycles we bring in we make bad choices and sacrifice picks in the process

Wouldn't you have preferred to see Castagna promoted (a Jackson pick I might add) to the senior list than Hunt get an extension? Would think the answer is yes.

I also know how heavily involved in player contracts Hartley is. Have said before he has too much influence on too many things

So I have no problem whacking him for the things he has got wrong. And I believe in the last 3 since he was given more authority at the club he has made some absolute howlers, more than the recruiters.

And Yes Our recruiters have made some poor decision / selections that's not in dispute and they deserve the whacks they cop. But to whack them for things they've had no input in is wrong

Where did I say FJ had anything to do with the Hunt contract extension?
You state yourself BH gives recommendations, from your 3 meetings, who is he giving these recommendations to? A recommendation is one thing but others need to agree to it.
You mention Hunt a couple of times, what did we actually give up for him in terms of draft picks?
 Did he deserve a contract extension after last years performances, probably yes. He was brought in to give us depth as a club, not to be the next Trent Cotchin.

FJ's job is to bring in top end kids, in the last 6 years this is a list of his first round picks. Too early to completely judge some of them but it's not too early to have an opinion on them and not one of them doesn't have a decent question mark on them. Conca, Ellis, Vlastuin, Vickery, C. Ellis, Lennon.
Let's not even get started on the Griffiths, Astburys and Elton's.

You are talking about the Hunt's of our list getting contract extensions and I'm talking about our first round draft picks, who do you think is the reason we are where we are?

[tony_montana]

Both

They're both poo and should be upgraded.

[Diocletian]

Yep - them & Dan "can't break our pay structure" Richardson can all pee off.....