Author Topic: State of Umpiring [merged]  (Read 288253 times)

Online Knighter

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2325 on: September 02, 2022, 03:22:07 AM »
AFL position re goal review

‘The arc reviewed all the camera angles and its viewed as a definitive behind. The correct call was made.’

11:46 PM · Sep 1, 2022

https://twitter.com/TomBrowne7/status/1565335220941131780

Show us the vision then u stuffen lying campaigners!

Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2326 on: September 02, 2022, 05:48:57 AM »
Are the ⁦@AFL⁩ rewriting history???? Flicked the post …. Really?


https://twitter.com/smwright1965/status/1565320554034634755


:huh3

Offline julzqld

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2327 on: September 02, 2022, 11:44:41 AM »
Umpire23 :banghead

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2328 on: September 02, 2022, 12:39:16 PM »
Umpire23 :banghead

funny Julz, I thought Ump 23 Findlay was the best of the 3

Ump 32 Mollison was shocking
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

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Offline JP Tiger

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2329 on: September 02, 2022, 02:17:02 PM »
One other incident from the game so far hasn't been mentioned, but I really feel very hard done by over it. 
2nd quarter saw a very confused Baker try to take the advantage from a free to Bolton one the outer wing, he took 3 steps & then decided that he didn't want the advantage.  He put his hands up in a surrender while two Brisbane players tackled him anyway.  The umpire decided that Baker had played on & was fair game to be tackled & so paid HTB against him.  So far things were clear enough (a little harsh because plenty of players stop taking advantage & are allowed to take the free) but that isn't really the issue here.
After being called for HTB, Baker gives the hands out pleading gesture to the umpire who promptly penalizes him for dissent & applies a 50mtr penalty. 

Brisbane player shoots from 35mtrs out & goals ... but wait a minute! 

Wasn't the automatic 50mtr penalty for dissent shelved just recently? 

The dissent rule still stands if a player is demonstrative, but the hands out pleading gesture was considered as NOT being demonstrative. 
But suddenly the 50mtr penalty was resurrected when an umpire arbitrarily wanted to pay it. 
WTF?
More 'make-it-up-as-you-go-along' rules from the umpires ...  no wonder players get confused ...   
Can the umpires ever be instructed in the fact that players cant hear a play on call over a grandstand full of howling fans?   They can hear a piercing whistle due to its pitch but they cant hear the umpires voice over the cacophony of noise.  To pick out one voice that is 30mtrs away over the grandstand full of howling fans 5mtrs away is impossible! 
To stop the play is simple - blow the whistle!  That's what it is for!   
Once a Tiger, always a Tiger!  Loud, proud & dangerous!

Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2330 on: September 02, 2022, 03:36:26 PM »
Speaking on Channel Seven post-game, AFL reporter Tom Browne said: “I was told tonight from a reliable source that they do look at the player reaction as a guide and then look at the evidence.”

That detail left fellow panellist and Richmond great Matthew Richardson stunned along with many pundits on social media.

Matthews, speaking on 3AW on Friday, was another left underwhelmed by the call.

“It’s a bit disturbing to be honest, because you want it to be definitive don’t you ... sometimes you hope the score review officer has got better vision than we have or more conclusive vision than we have,” he said.

“To me, no, it wasn’t conclusive and therefore overturning the goal umpire was just a gigantic decision.”

Lions coach Chris Fagan admitted he was perplexed as to what the decision would be from the score reviewer.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2022-richmond-loss-to-brisbane-score-review-arc-tom-lynch-reaction-video-rules/news-story/5d0897c8f54aeaa4345e5b451973ff71

Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2331 on: September 02, 2022, 03:37:33 PM »
“AN OVERREACH OF TECHNOLOGY”: THE AFL’S REVIEW SYSTEM HAS AN “INHERENT FLAW”

By Andrew Slevison
SEN
2 September 2022


Gerard Whateley has called into question the legitimacy of the ARC system used by the AFL.

The ARC review hub was put through its paces late in Thursday night’s frenzied Elimination Final between Brisbane and Richmond at the Gabba.

Tigers forward Tom Lynch had a set shot from an acute angle with two minutes left which was signalled a goal by the goal umpire.

The decision was sent to ARC who adjudged it to be a point as it apparently crossed the line over the goalpost.

What’s worse for Tigers fans is that a Lynch goal would have likely finished the Lions, who then took it down the other end and managed to scrap a goal through Joe Daniher to steal a win by two points.

It is a decision that has been met with derision by Richmond coach Damien Hardwick and SEN broadcaster Whateley followed suit.

He says the system has an “inherent flaw” and the ARC was simply “pretending” in its deliberation.

“This is the demonstration of the inherent flaw in the system,” he said on SEN’s The Captain’s Run.

“I understand there are those who are slavishly devoted to technology, but I’ve seen enough in sport to say that its intervention actually just shifts the error rather than solves and creates the perfect world that people are after.

“The inherent flaw is that limited technology can give you an absolute result so that the three-dimensional world can be captured in a two-dimensional image.

“I cannot think of a clearer case study than this. So, the determination that was made was, ‘We can see the ball crosses the line over the top of the goalpost’.

“Well, we can’t. We can’t see when the ball crosses the line from the varying camera angles, so how could you possibly extrapolate where the ball crosses the line.

“But this is the way this system has been advanced and advocated for and used.

“There is no angle that technology can provide that can adequately answer those questions. There is an angle though and that’s the angle of the goal umpire.

“He saw it, he knew where the line was, he knew where the post was and he knew where the ball was, and he get overruled. That is an overreach of technology and the AFL can say all it likes to that, that they viewed all the angles and used all the freeze-frames to say the ball was over the post.

“That is pretending. You cannot tell that with the technology that is in play in this system.”

Hardwick suggested that perhaps it is time to scrap the review system altogether if they can’t get the technology right.

So, do we go back to the human involvement, human error and the umpire’s call? Or is there still a place for the technology and the ARC system?

Whateley believes a multi-billion industry like the AFL could perhaps afford an infrared beam that could help with judging balls that fly over the post.

“I think it can live somewhere within the limitations of a system,” Whateley added.

“So anything over the post can’t be reviewed. There is no angle unless, just say you were the biggest sport in the country, a multi-billion dollar sport that might put an infrared beam in the top of the post because you wanted to get everything perfect.

“But you’d have to be the biggest sport in the country and a multi-billion business to even contemplate that. So let’s take that off the table.

“Let’s just understand the things that can be captured and the things that can’t be captured. So what should happen from the ARC last night is it should say, ‘The ball was over the post, it’s impossible to say when that ball crosses the line, the goal umpire is in an excellent position, the goal umpire’s call stands’.

“I think we would all go, ‘Yep, it may very well have passed over the post, but there is no way of knowing that to the satisfaction of overruling the eyes on the scene’.”

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/09/02/an-overreach-of-technology-the-afls-review-system-has-an-inherent-flaw/

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2332 on: September 02, 2022, 04:06:43 PM »
One other incident from the game so far hasn't been mentioned, but I really feel very hard done by over it. 
2nd quarter saw a very confused Baker try to take the advantage from a free to Bolton one the outer wing, he took 3 steps & then decided that he didn't want the advantage.  He put his hands up in a surrender while two Brisbane players tackled him anyway.  The umpire decided that Baker had played on & was fair game to be tackled & so paid HTB against him.  So far things were clear enough (a little harsh because plenty of players stop taking advantage & are allowed to take the free) but that isn't really the issue here.
After being called for HTB, Baker gives the hands out pleading gesture to the umpire who promptly penalizes him for dissent & applies a 50mtr penalty. 

Brisbane player shoots from 35mtrs out & goals ... but wait a minute! 

Wasn't the automatic 50mtr penalty for dissent shelved just recently? 

The dissent rule still stands if a player is demonstrative, but the hands out pleading gesture was considered as NOT being demonstrative. 
But suddenly the 50mtr penalty was resurrected when an umpire arbitrarily wanted to pay it. 
WTF?
More 'make-it-up-as-you-go-along' rules from the umpires ...  no wonder players get confused ...   
Can the umpires ever be instructed in the fact that players cant hear a play on call over a grandstand full of howling fans?   They can hear a piercing whistle due to its pitch but they cant hear the umpires voice over the cacophony of noise.  To pick out one voice that is 30mtrs away over the grandstand full of howling fans 5mtrs away is impossible! 
To stop the play is simple - blow the whistle!  That's what it is for!   

I actually have no issue with the free against Baker

He took advantage; it wasn't steps, he moved at least 2-3 metres and then when he was about to be tackled the hand went up basically saying say I don't want advantage now. So based on that no issue with the HTB decision. it was a brain fade on Bakers part

Agree re the dissent 50 metre  penalty, that was stupid as it took thing back to rounds 1-6 not what they've been paying the last 15 weeks or so.

have to say Whateley is on the money re the ARC review.

have to wonder if the goal umpire didn't call for the review what would have happened? The ARC supposedly review every goal even the ones that haven't had had a review called for so what would have happened? I doubt very much they would have over turned it  :help
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

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Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2333 on: September 02, 2022, 04:23:12 PM »

What the ARC reviewer apparently used to justify calling it a behind from the above TV angles (top left and bottom right).



Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2334 on: September 02, 2022, 04:30:54 PM »
Here is vision from a different angle right behind Lynch's kick:

Watch here: https://twitter.com/m_felgate/status/1565523446355746817


Does the ball go over, in front of or behind the left goal post?

Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2335 on: September 02, 2022, 04:41:55 PM »
Above vision close up and slowed down plus forward and reversed:

Watch here: https://twitter.com/chriistianbell/status/1565536405110939650

Offline Andyy

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2336 on: September 02, 2022, 05:08:21 PM »
It was a behind IMO.

Lynch should have nailed it. Easy textbook snap

Offline one-eyed

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2337 on: September 02, 2022, 05:38:29 PM »
SEN just played audio of Lynch being interviewed today.

Lynch said he lost the ball in the lights so that's why he reacted the way he did.

Offline pmac21

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2338 on: September 02, 2022, 06:37:20 PM »
How amplified are the crap rules in finals.   
Stand rule again gets us. 

Offline mightytiges

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Re: State of Umpiring [merged]
« Reply #2339 on: September 02, 2022, 09:57:52 PM »
Tonight's game is so over-umpired it's not funny. Umps paying so many off the ball frees and 50s.

As for our overturned goal there's an old saying: Don't give the umps an opportunity to screw you when you don't have to. Lynch should have put that through the middle from 10m out. You could kick it with a simple drop punt from there. Dual sided players would have used their left foot instead too as that's the easier shot. Not blaming Lynch for the loss by the way. We had the ball in our forward half for most of the last 5 minutes yet stuffed up every chance (Baker's OOTF the worst) :banghead.

Signed one still ticked off and frustrated left-footed Tiger supporter :rant.
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