Author Topic: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]  (Read 34137 times)

Offline Stripes

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4264
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2010, 08:04:53 PM »
You can't make strawberry jam out of horse manure  ;)
Thank you Caro's dad  ;)

In addition I don't think we should field a team to lose. The players should be playing together to win all year. What I am saying is that the administration should select players and recommend positional changes in the effort to continue the teams development...so we lose. You are saying the players aren't silly and that they would see through such a ruse but we have been making similar decisions all year so changes such as these would not seem amiss. If we win then well we did so finding out more about the list and players but if we lose then it would be better for our future list development.
For example promoting and playing Gourdis at FB on Barry Hall and Pavlich in the next two games now that McGuane is out injured. If he struggles we lose; if Goo holds his own and we win then we've found another key defender. Win-win long-term!

My thoughts exactly MT. The same can go with Browne - play him on Mumford. If he gets beaten well we lose but either way it develops him as a ruckman and shows us where he sits as a long term prospect after a few weeks. If he is promoted, I'd love to see Hicks in the midfield too after weeks of being in the bests.

Play the youth and we claim the best picks too. What more can you ask for  :whistle

Stripes

Offline big tone

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4404
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2010, 09:38:50 PM »
The argument is fairly simple as I see it. You think winning as a team will be better in the long run for our future while I say getting the best possible collection of draft choices so we can get the best young players is the most important thing. In an ideal world you cn have both but in reality, winning now means that we lose on draft day. It's pretty simple. The more we win short term, the more we lose long term with the chances of finding quality players diminished.

It seems to me (and correct me if I am wrong) you seem willing to put faith in our ability to develop players that we draft but question whether we can develop what we've got.

Further to that I see the we must lose argument as being flawed in that there is quality deep in this draft you just have to know where to find it - so many seem unwilling to acknowledge that.

Whether we have pick 4 or pick 6 we are going to get a quality kid in this draft - it is a deep draft. Whether we have pick 27, 29 or 30 again we are going a pretty good pick up if our recruiters are smart just like any other year

I understand the argument about needing another good draft to bring in more kids but at the same time I don't think we should be "short circuiting" the development of the kids coming through just so we can sow up pick 4. We need to get the balance right

I will repeat let them play and let's see what happens, if we win; then we win if we don't then I will sit back and enjoy the ride. Reality is we are going to finish somewhere between 16th and 14th no higher so let's just see what happens and enjoy it  :thumbsup
What makes me laugh about this debate (tanking) is the fact that we have won 3 games of late against shyt sides and now people think we have the list to be a contender. Before that we lost 9 in a row.  Let me tell you people we are half way in terms of a list to compete for final and grand finals.
Don’t kid yourselves people, this stuff does not happen overnight and the sooner Tiger supporters realise this the better and let me tell you another thing Richmond supporters are the worst in the league for over estimating our lists. Not only do we need to tank this year but next year too. It seems to me that older Richmond supporters seem to take this the hardest. They want to talk about culture and crap but if you don’t have the cattle, it all fails into significance.
As good as Hardwick has been this year and the development he has produced in many of our young kids, he would give his right nut for the chance to have the best pick come November. We can develop to a certain point but this list will only take us so far. We need another two years at least of good kids and a whole lot of luck to be able to compete with the likes of The Western Bulldogs, Collingwood or even the Saints...... And then there is Geelong.
I think Stripes has made some really good and easy to follow ways tanking can be achieved without Hardwick losing any respect from the players or club. Melbourne have done this perfectly over the last 3 to 4 years and now have the list IMO to be able to compete with the big boys. They will take time to develop and grow their bodies but they are heading in the right direction and they are 3 years and better drafts in front of us. FACT!
The RFC needs to be smart and look to the future not the present.

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98235
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2010, 10:22:46 PM »
I've posted this in the U18 Champs thread but I'll post it here also so people see it.

According to BF, due to Etihad Stadium's surface being stuffed, the AFL has moved the last round of U18 Champs  away from Etihad that was scheduled for next Wednesday :(.

http://oneeyed-richmond.com/forum//index.php?topic=10989.msg195218#msg195218

· Div 2 matches will have to be played at Visy Park on Tuesday 29 June – at 12.30pm (Qld v NT) and 2.30pm (Tas v NSW/ACT) - (4 x 20 minute quarters). For this game, to assist workload we would be comfortable for teams to play up to 25 provided both teams have equal numbers.

· Div 1 matches will be played at Skilled Stadium, Geelong on Wed 30 June – 12.30pm (Vic M v WA) and 2.30pm (Vic C v SA) - (4 x 20 minute quarters)

· There will be no AFLPA Parents information session, as schedule for 8.15am at Etihad on Wed.


Therefore, in fairness to the Div 2 teams who now have a day’s less break, we will reduce all Rd 4 matches to 4 x 20 minute quarters at Visy Park .

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98235
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2010, 11:01:54 PM »
Here's an article on Andrew Gaff who is one of the kids we'll look consider using our first pick on....


Andrew Gaff - The loaded gun

    * Jay Clark
    * From: Sunday Herald Sun
    * June 27, 2010



Andrew Gaff is concentrating on taking the best option. Source: Herald Sun

WHEN Andrew Gaff gut-runs through the midfield, the bleak draft landscape confronting clubs this year begins to brighten.

The workaholic onballer is not only the most consistently performed teen of this year's talent pool, he remains a genuine chance of slipping through the Gold Coast net.

Tipped to fall somewhere between picks four and six, the left-footer likened to Luke Power is Victoria's most accomplished underage midfield prospect.

While Gaff happily admits he may not have the flair of some of his counterparts, his workmanlike game style remains a triumph in simplicity.

"There is no point trying to pinpoint a bullet pass over a few guys' heads if it is not the best option," he said.

"You've got to play the percentages.

"Whether that is kicking to a one-on-one to the goal square or chip 20m to a teammate who can play on in space, I pride myself on my skills."

An impressively level-headed scholar from Kew, Gaff has blitzed this year's under-18 national championships.

Over four games, he averaged 28 possessions at 79 per cent efficiency, and averaged 117 SuperCoach points.

"It's all about work rate for him," AIS-AFL high performance coach Jason McCartney said.

"He covers the ground and reads the play so well, and his attention to detail is as good as any AFL player."

While Harley Bennell, Sam Day and David Swallow are likely to be the Gold Coast's first three draft picks, Gaff would be a glittering prize for the club that collects the wooden spoon. Indeed, his selection may almost be worth finishing last.

Recruiters have marvelled at Gaff's endurance, slipping seamlessly from end-to-end-of the ground, and ability to play in and outside midfield roles.

Although the running machine will be long gone by Geelong's first selection, he is a player who has very much been cut in the Cats' mould.

"He may not have one outstanding attribute, but he does tick all the boxes and is very disciplined playing his role," Oakleigh regional manager Stephen Conole said.

"But his ability to gut-run is probably his biggest point of difference."

Gaff said his top-line fitness base was the result of a meticulous approach to training.

"It's a matter of getting into good habits," Gaff said.

"Sprinting to the cones and getting in around behind them at training, not being lazy and walking between drills.

"Those are the things that hold you in good stead."

His leadership and courage were also outstanding features of his game, according to Oakleigh coach Steven Grace.

"One game he ran back into the path of two oncoming talls and took an unflinching mark," Grace said.

"He got absolutely flattened but he got up and just slotted the goal."

In a national draft resembling a game of increasingly high stakes, national talent manager Kevin Sheehan rated Gaff one of the safest bets.

"He's driven, organised, disciplined. They are the traits of successful players and you cant help but think there are no faults here."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/the-loaded-gun/story-e6frf9jf-1225884688360

TigerTimeII

  • Guest
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2010, 12:06:38 PM »
we wont get pick 4 , we will not finish last!!!

and rightly so, tanking does not work

Offline Stripes

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4264
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2010, 01:00:11 PM »
we wont get pick 4 , we will not finish last!!!

I agree. As much as I hope we do finish last and engineer some loses on the back of onfield experimentation, I don't think it will happen. Part of Hardwicks coaching methodology is a simple, focused game plan and set of team rules which should be able to executed regardless of positional changes. I think the only way we will finish last this year is if Adelaide and West Coast decide wins on the board are the most important focus for them this year (doubtful to say the least  :'() and we have some bad luck with injuries to key players such as Martin, Gus and Riewoldt.

I actually believe that, even busting a gut, we will struggle to win more than 3 more this year. The last few wins against weak sides have coloured many of our judgements so all we will achieve with these wins is 14th spot rather than 16th! A great result won't you say!  :thumbsup

and rightly so, tanking does not work

The teams that have tanked are Hawthorn, Carlton and Melbourne in my books. It's worked for the Hawks because they have players of the right age, Carlton and Melborne have strong, young sides because of it but the proof won't be in the pudding until (like us) the majority of their list is at the mid-age range. Time will tell but its more about the amount of talent you bring through at once rather than a few star players. Star players are more the cherry on the cake and are elevated by those around them which is why Richo could never drag us into the finals. Melbourne is best positioned because they stayed down their long enough and chose well later in the draft with their early round selections.

'Tanking' is about playing the system that most clubs attempt to manipulate. To complete and win you need every advantage you can get and while we're in the position to take advantage of it - I think we would be crazy not to...

Stripes

TigerTimeII

  • Guest
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2010, 05:10:48 PM »
the hawks didnt tank, they just had a real poo yr and finished 2nd last, we got the sppon that yr but they recruited and traded real well, we didnt

cartlon melbourne and the saints have tanked and none of them will win a granny

1965

  • Guest
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2010, 06:25:48 PM »
we wont get pick 4 , we will not finish last!!!
and rightly so, tanking does not work

Maybe, Maybe not.

We can still win games, just hope that Adelaide and West Coast win as many as we do.

 :thumbsup

TigerTimeII

  • Guest
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2010, 07:45:45 PM »
we wont get pick 4 , we will not finish last!!!
and rightly so, tanking does not work

Maybe, Maybe not.

We can still win games, just hope that Adelaide and West Coast win as many as we do.

 :thumbsup
[/quote

true

Offline the_boy_jake

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
  • For We're From Tigerland
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2010, 07:49:29 PM »
If Jack or Deledio/Cotchin/Martin get injured we will struggle to win games....

In fact in the long run it might do the club hierarchy good to see it happen.

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98235
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #100 on: June 28, 2010, 01:50:17 PM »
Andrew Gaff is #6 for Vic Metro

Shaun Atley is #32 for Vic Country


Joel Wilkinson of Queensland, Steven May of the Northern Territory, Shaun Atley of Vic Country, Seb Tape of South Australia, Andrew Gaff of Vic Metro, Reece Conca of Western Australia, Anthony Miles of NSW/ACT and Josh Green of Tasmania pose for a photo at AFL House in Melbourne.


More pics here:

Andrew Gaff
http://images.slatterymedia.com/image/?image_id=211297
http://images.slatterymedia.com/image/?image_id=211297

Shaun Atley
http://images.slatterymedia.com/image/?image_id=211302
http://images.slatterymedia.com/image/?image_id=211303
http://images.slatterymedia.com/image/?image_id=211304

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #101 on: June 28, 2010, 02:13:35 PM »

Joel Wilkinson of Queensland, Steven May of the Northern Territory, Shaun Atley of Vic Country, Seb Tape of South Australia, Andrew Gaff of Vic Metro, Reece Conca of Western Australia, Anthony Miles of NSW/ACT and Josh Green of Tasmania pose for a photo at AFL House in Melbourne.


Is Seb Tape any relation to ex-RFC Jamie?

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98235
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #102 on: June 28, 2010, 06:22:36 PM »
The final round of the Under 18 Championships will be on Fox Sports this Wednesday from 12.30 AEST, on SEN 1116 or on the AFL website.


Vic Metro v Western Australia 12.35pm, Skilled Stadium
Vic Country v South Australia 2.45pm, Skilled Stadium

 

Kevin 'Shifter' Sheehan also had a live chat about the U18s this arvo on the AFL site discussing the potential draftees...

http://oneeyed-richmond.com/forum//index.php?topic=11527.0

Offline MikeetIGER

  • Future Richmond star
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • For We're From Tigerland
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #103 on: June 28, 2010, 07:05:49 PM »
I agree that it is exciting to see the kids developing and winning together but make no mistake I am certain we do not have all the pieces of the puzzle yet. Have we really kid ourselves into believing that we have enough quality midfielders? Do we look at Jack and say that our forwardline is set for the future? What about our ruck and backline?

Sure we have players developing and coming through all the time but we have equally as many that disappoint and never get there. We need another quality midfielder to work along with Cotchin, Martin and possibly Foley. We need talented outsiders and support players roating though the engine which we just don't have.

What about the forwardline - is Griffiths assured of remaining injury free and making it? What about Astbury - is he a backman or forward? Will Post or Westoff come in? Are our small man stocks sufficent with Taylor, Nahas, Nason and Collins/White?

What I am trying to say is that we still have a huge amount of holes which need to be filled and we need as many quality players on our list pushing for spots as possible because the reality is is that most won't make it. An early pick will almost always assure you of a quality long-term player while the further up the order you are forced, the smaller the chances are. Two players in the 20s would also increase our chances in finding successful players.

I just wish we weren't forced into this position where, being so success-starved, we struggle to see past the short term uphoria of a few meaningless wins instead of enduring the build a bit longer to give us the best chance we have beyond this year.

I doubt we will not win more than 3 but surely people can see beyond the 'team-building' hype and see you need quality materials to work with before you can build anything of exception - that's what early picks are.

Stripes

 

Quality, quality post.  Still can't believe people get sucked into the 'winning culture' crap argument.  My God, when will we ever learn.  Did alot of good last year winning 8 out of last 11.  Maximizing the draft while we can will give us the best chance to get the best possible players on our list.  I want premierships; not get crap meaningless wins at the the end of the year that will restrict us to being an average team stuck in the middle of the ladder for the next decade.

GO TIGES!!!

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: 2010 Draft Discussion thread [merged]
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2010, 07:33:09 PM »
I agree that it is exciting to see the kids developing and winning together but make no mistake I am certain we do not have all the pieces of the puzzle yet. Have we really kid ourselves into believing that we have enough quality midfielders? Do we look at Jack and say that our forwardline is set for the future? What about our ruck and backline?

Sure we have players developing and coming through all the time but we have equally as many that disappoint and never get there. We need another quality midfielder to work along with Cotchin, Martin and possibly Foley. We need talented outsiders and support players roating though the engine which we just don't have.

What about the forwardline - is Griffiths assured of remaining injury free and making it? What about Astbury - is he a backman or forward? Will Post or Westoff come in? Are our small man stocks sufficent with Taylor, Nahas, Nason and Collins/White?

What I am trying to say is that we still have a huge amount of holes which need to be filled and we need as many quality players on our list pushing for spots as possible because the reality is is that most won't make it. An early pick will almost always assure you of a quality long-term player while the further up the order you are forced, the smaller the chances are. Two players in the 20s would also increase our chances in finding successful players.

I just wish we weren't forced into this position where, being so success-starved, we struggle to see past the short term uphoria of a few meaningless wins instead of enduring the build a bit longer to give us the best chance we have beyond this year.

I doubt we will not win more than 3 but surely people can see beyond the 'team-building' hype and see you need quality materials to work with before you can build anything of exception - that's what early picks are.

Stripes

 

Quality, quality post.  Still can't believe people get sucked into the 'winning culture' crap argument.  My God, when will we ever learn.  Did alot of good last year winning 8 out of last 11.  Maximizing the draft while we can will give us the best chance to get the best possible players on our list.  I want premierships; not get crap meaningless wins at the the end of the year that will restrict us to being an average team stuck in the middle of the ladder for the next decade.

GO TIGES!!!

Tank away and want away - you'll be doing both for the rest of your life without any satisfaction if you think tanking will cure our ills.  Still haven't seen a premiership won by a team that did it and I doubt I ever will.  I can't believe that people still get sucked into the 'tanking rules' argument when tanking has not been the cause of one premiership flag since the notion raised it's pyrite-encrusted head.  We finish middle of the road because we do a hell of a lot of things wrong, not because we try to win meaningless games.  And tanking will not fix one poofteenth of those problems.