Author Topic: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?  (Read 33380 times)

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #195 on: June 26, 2011, 09:42:50 AM »
Wouldnt be getting a game at those clubs IMHO.

Offline The Big Richo

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #196 on: June 26, 2011, 11:25:25 AM »
I thought I was the only one that disliked Jackson, everyone loves his attack and aggression on the ball, which is also a negative seeing as he gets reported 1 in 4 games. As much as I admire his courage the guy isn't AFL standard. Have always said we'll never be a top side when our best 22 consists of guys like Jackson and Tuck. It's just reality, fine blokes I'm sure and OK footballers. Not top 4 standard.

Ive never been a big fan either. For some reason the coach wants him in the side.

As a negating player he has value.

Would be very interested in the stat of how many games we won when Jackson had over 20 possessions. Should not be disposing the ball, certainly not from a handball receive.

Have to ask whether he'd get a game at Carlton, Hawthorn, Geelong or Collingwood.

I'd honestly doubt it.

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #197 on: June 26, 2011, 12:48:16 PM »
It's these blokes at 24ish who have been in our system for 7 seasons that we know won't take us to the next level that should be traded. He has media profile and is seen as a positive citizen. If we are smart he would be perfect to trade to for a decent draft pick to a club that has poor PR as Jako speaks well.
At somewhere like St Kilda, Dogs, North he would be perfect just as he would be to GWS or Port for Trengove and McGuane.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #198 on: June 26, 2011, 02:14:02 PM »
It's these blokes at 24ish who have been in our system for 7 seasons that we know won't take us to the next level that should be traded. He has media profile and is seen as a positive citizen. If we are smart he would be perfect to trade to for a decent draft pick to a club that has poor PR as Jako speaks well.
At somewhere like St Kilda, Dogs, North he would be perfect just as he would be to GWS or Port for Trengove and McGuane.

there are not man players 24ish on the list...

13 aged 24 or over.

Deledio. Keep.
Graham. Should be delisted but our ruck stocks very young. Weak.
White. 50/50. Not really good enough.
Mcgaune. Would rather thursfield in the team. Honestly.
Morton. Senior player and talented. Really hurting us he's got his finger up his ass and playing. Vfl.
Jackson. Leadership group.  Sposed to be a coach pet / gun player. I think he is bit poo and would make top 6 team best 22.
Thursfield. Playing coburg reserves.
Foley. Keep.
King. Forward line pressure appauling without the rat.
Moore.
Miller. Like a older fwd line mcgaune.
Newman. Keep.
Tuck. Oldest player on list can't get a game. Must be in trouble.

Offline The Big Richo

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #199 on: June 26, 2011, 02:26:04 PM »
I still reckon we need to move King on sooner rather than later.

He is what, 27? and for average players that try hard the end comes awful quick, especially when they have pace and not much else. I doubt he will play much past 30 which will when we are getting set for a sustained tilt at it.

It is a position that needs a successor being groomed in the next 18 months.
Who isn't a fan of the thinking man's orange Tim Fleming?

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Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #200 on: June 26, 2011, 02:39:48 PM »
We seem to lack mid tall toward options.

Both Newman or tuck would be worth a try but the coach doesn't pick tuck and wants Newman in the backline. Deledio would be near perfect option but the team isn't good enough to play without lids protecting thr goals as a defender/mid.

From the remaining senior players nahas is already in the team. Orelly. Houli. Webberly etc. All seem better suited to the backline.

Looking at the list Morton. Stands out but is not selected. Connors in the same boat.

It seems mcdonald has been drafted in the role of kings long term replacmnt. Given his draft postion and inablity to
make thr coburg seniors we need to look at drafting forward running players. You'd think thr will go for the most talented mid option.

I would consiter drafting high skilled mids and starting them on back flank and consiter playing deledio chf alongside griffits. Vickery. Riewoldt. Long term. Similar to Jameshird/kouta play attacking where ever thru most needed fwd / mid.


Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #201 on: June 26, 2011, 02:53:59 PM »
Jackson needs to wrk out what his future is.

Agree with this

I thought I was the only one that disliked Jackson, everyone loves his attack and aggression on the ball, which is also a negative seeing as he gets reported 1 in 4 games. As much as I admire his courage the guy isn't AFL standard. Have always said we'll never be a top side when our best 22 consists of guys like Jackson and Tuck. It's just reality, fine blokes I'm sure and OK footballers. Not top 4 standard.

Ive never been a big fan either. For some reason the coach wants him in the side.

As a negating player he has value.

Would be very interested in the stat of how many games we won when Jackson had over 20 possessions. Should not be disposing the ball, certainly not from a handball receive.

Have to ask whether he'd get a game at Carlton, Hawthorn, Geelong or Collingwood.

I'd honestly doubt it.

Would he get a game at those clubs - I'd say no

Problem shone like a beacon yesterday it is ihis decision making and disposal. Those "dinky" little along the ground handbalss are a joke and the times yesterday the choice of who to give it off to was awfual at best and terrible at worst

But while Dimma is coach Jacko is guaranteed a game 
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Re: Coburg vs North Ballarat - Saturday, July 23
« Reply #202 on: July 23, 2011, 11:17:51 PM »
MT,
if the club were fair dinkum
None of the above will be at Punt Road.
We might as well keep turning them over
I didn't recruit them Jack. Craig Cameron has been managing  ::) our list since 2008. Good luck turning them all over this year when GWS is hogging the top end of the draft. Not to forget Cameron missed out planning for priority picks b/w 2009-11 all for less than a handful of meaningless late season wins against other bottom sides ::). Seriously for just 4 wins less (and 2 draws) over a 3 year period we could have had an additional two pick 4s and pick 19 (Fyfe or Bastinac). That's how you (re-)build a list. The Club has never understood the draft system and taken advantage of it  :banghead.
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Offline RollsRoyce

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #203 on: July 23, 2011, 11:26:51 PM »
MT,
if the club were fair dinkum
None of the above will be at Punt Road.
We might as well keep turning them over
I The Club has never understood the draft system and taken advantage of it  :banghead.

You mean deliberately lose? It's called cheating. Leave that to Carlton and Melbourne. It suits those scumbags, and makes anything they achieve completely hollow and meaningless. Unlike ANY of our real wins that you are so quick to deride.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:57:08 PM by one-eyed »

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #204 on: July 23, 2011, 11:34:27 PM »
MT,
if the club were fair dinkum
None of the above will be at Punt Road.
We might as well keep turning them over
I The Club has never understood the draft system and taken advantage of it  :banghead.

You mean deliberately lose? It's called cheating. Leave that to Carlton and Melbourne. It suits those scumbags, and makes anything they achieve completely hollow and meaningless. Unlike ANY of our real wins that you are so quick to deride.

And Hawthorn, Collingwood, St Kilda, Bulldogs, Eagles, .... The only club that's had recent success that didn't 'tank' for priority picks was Geelong and they didn't need to with all their cheap father-sons being their bonus selections. It's not cheating if it's all within the rules RR.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:57:34 PM by one-eyed »
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Offline RollsRoyce

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #205 on: July 23, 2011, 11:47:54 PM »
It seems to be within the rules, because the AFL stick their head up their collective bum and pretend it isn't happening. Just like they are rife with double standards and corruption regarding unfair fixtures, disparity in umpiring and MRP decisions, giving new franchises an unfair leg up with the cream of the draft,and third party pay arrangements.
At the end of the day, if you run out and deliberately go through the motions to secure a better draft pick, IT'S CHEATING.Even if you try to dress it up by "resting" players, or sending them off early for operations that can wait until the end of the season. I will never be comfortabe with it. And if the AFL are fair dinkum, (which I know they aren't) neither should they be.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:57:56 PM by one-eyed »

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #206 on: July 24, 2011, 06:51:44 AM »
This belongs in a different thread, but I agree RR the AFL is in denial and the draft system needs to change to provide incentive for bottom sides to win. A NBA-style lottery for the bottom half of the ladder would help.

However, while the current system is in place, winning meaningless games against other bottom sides late in the season proves nothing. Moreso, if you have the chance to secure a bonus priority pick at or near the top end of the draft then any club which then misses out on one by just 1-2 wins is stupid.

In 2009 we were on just 2 wins when Wallace was sacked midway through the season. Under Rawlings we then beat Essendon by just 5 pts, a tanking Melbourne by a kick after the siren and drew with North when we were a goal down with a minute to play. So for a couple of goals extra we cost ourselves having a 10 year player of the quality of a Nathan Fyfe or even a Ryan Bastinac. Move forward to 2010 and we have just one win by the midpoint and we come from 33 down to beat Sydney by 3 points and scrape home against an inaccurate Adelaide who should have put us away by half-time. Again two narrow meaningless wins has cost us another 10 year player such as a Heppel or Lynch (Suns' young gun FF) or even a Andrew Gaff who will push his way into a fast improving Eagles line-up. Call it "cheating" all you want but that's how you need to play the off-field recruiting game because that's how the smart clubs play it. Sure we can stick to sitting on our high moral pedestal while we remain in the bottom 4 for 10 years and counting while other clubs fall down and then rise right back past us to the top of the ladder  :banghead. Sorry I prefer instead to build a strong classy list as quickly as possible within the rules allowed just as most other clubs do.  

ps. Just one stat for everyone to think about - if you just take the first half of the past 5 seasons, we have won a measely 10 wins from 55 matches  :help. That's on average just 2 wins by the season midpoint for the past 5 years straight. Our year has been over within the first two months if not the first month in each of those 5 years. Any club with that pitiful record needs additional help in gaining quality players to improve its onfield performance and the AFL actually has a system already in place if a club is smart to provide extra early-ish picks for clubs that hardly win a game year after year - it's called priority picks. Too bad that after the past 5 years of pain and crap we have NO priority picks to show for it when we had the chance to gain them ::). Compare that to the Eagles who just 4 years after winning a flag tanked to gain a priority pick which enabled then to add Darling. Our supporters like to put blame on the coach and/or the players but it is those higher up the chain that are at fault. Not a braincell between them when it comes to understanding how to take full advantage of the draft system  :banghead. That's not including either picking up recycled duds like Thomson, Hislop, Miller  under Cameron's watch and feeding supporters a whole lot of bulldust as to why they'll be good recruits   ::). As a club we only have ourselves to blame for continually doing things half-hearted and keeping us in mediocrity. Right now I must admit I have little confidence in the leadership of the Club as far as those connected with the footy dept  :-\.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:58:23 PM by one-eyed »
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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #207 on: July 24, 2011, 07:30:18 AM »
MT, as i have said for the past 5 years, the footy dept doesnt have much idea.
Even if we did have a priority pick, we would have buggered up the selection
How we actually picked Martn is beyond belief
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:58:47 PM by one-eyed »

Offline RollsRoyce

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #208 on: July 24, 2011, 09:57:02 AM »
MT, I am well aware of what being honest has cost us as a club in terms of draft picks. I just think it's contrary to the very nature of any sport for a competing team or individual to want to run out and deliberately lose. Can you imagine watching the Olympics and hoping Australia don't get any medals? If any sport gets to that stage, which the AFL clearly did some time ago, then its' integrity is in serious trouble. When the Pakistanis were caught deliberately throwing matches for bookies there was worldwide condemnation, and heavy penalties from  the ICC, and rightly so.
But what makes the AFL so insidious is that the game's administrators, instead of wiping this blight out, simply look the other way. The main reason is that they created this mess in the first place by implementing a system which rewards cheats. I understand your basic argument is, hey, the world's rotten and if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Certainly the rewards on offer support that argument, as Carlton storm their way to a top four finish, while we languish eternally at the bottom of the ladder. But I'm afraid this situation, combined with all the other inequities that we have to put up with from this rotten, crooked Demetriou/Anderson/Fitzpatrick administration (as mentioned in my last post) have gone a L-O-N-G way towards turning me off this game for good. I don't know if you still go to training. But if you do, you may have wondered why you don't see me there anymore.    
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:59:52 PM by one-eyed »

Offline Penelope

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Re: Tanking verses Belief, Structure and Faith?
« Reply #209 on: July 24, 2011, 05:05:08 PM »
yeah, actually agree with you there rolls

the only thing id add is that even if we had cheated, we were that incompetent we would not have benefited from it
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

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yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI