Author Topic: Courageous win!  (Read 12354 times)

Offline Owl

  • Magnificent Bastard
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 7012
  • Bring me TWO chickens
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2010, 10:41:20 AM »
come on, people don't slap their balls on the tables to get em slapped later down the track when they got it wrong, well maybe just once or twice lol.  Glad I am such an oracle that I get it right all the time.  I wanted to remind everyone how stuffing awesome Deledio was to come back out and play such awesome footy after nearly having his stuffing arm snapped in half and it must of been partially dislocated, I had the same thing happen to me, hurt like all hell, but funnily enough you can use it after clicking it back in.  It is gonna be stiff and sore as hell on him later though so he might not be good for a week.
Lots of people name their swords......

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2010, 10:42:36 PM »

No you can't have your cake and eat it too Smokey - so if we come 9th and our first pick is 16, we end up with a wasted draft and we find the best we can ever achieve is a couple of quick finals visits before dropping back down again - I hope the anti-tankers remember that they thought a couple of extra wins at the end of the year was worth it.  :shh


Why will it be a wasted draft?  Why will our recruiters go from being very professional and very good 12 months ago to being incompetent and useless 12 months later?  What basis do you have for saying that because our first pick is #16 we can therefore only ever hope to achieve a "couple of quick finals visits before dropping down again"?  If you thought that Sunday's win was not worth it at any level - team, club, sponsor or supporter - then I don't know that you will ever be capable of seeing the positives.

Quote

You speak of the importance of learning and knowing how to win, how to do the little things in games and creating a 'winning culture' as the most important steps to our future success. I agree...almost  :P  I believe the players need to always fight and strive to win and to learn to do the little things but this can be achieved without winning every game. Would you argue that the Hawks game was not he most important game for us this year yet we didn't win. So is every loss a waste or can they be just as valuable to the growth of the players and team as a win? Which was more valuable, the West Coast win or the Hawthorn loss?


The Hawthorn loss was valuable only in the fact that it was a further step in proving the effort required to win and be successful at senior AFL level - it taught our team just how much further they had to go to actually win.  We had been learning the same lessons since Round 1 this year and the Hawthorn game was just an extension and further proof of what the team was already well down the path of learning.  You can't make the mistake of isolating a win or a loss as the single influential factor, you must look at the season in it's entirety to judge the improvement or otherwise.

Quote

A winning 'culture' is not created from winning but from learning and fighting to win. Anti-tankers don't seem to get it - we are developing, transforming and building for a premiership, not a few meaningless wins or even a finals appearance. To quote you smokey - it means no compromises, no shortcuts, no second bests from everyone involved - the players, the coaches, the boot studders, it means focusing on the big picture and wins don't necessarily equate to a winning culture no more than losses makes teams develop a losing one.


Please explain how you can create a winning culture by the club trying not to win?  Please explain to one of the anti-tankers that "don't get it" how we can develop, transform and build to a premiership without actually winning games of football?  What big picture am I missing by thinking that "wins don't necessarily equate to a winning culture" and that redemption and success will come by deliberately losing?

Quote

I'm as excited about every win this year as anyone, probably more than most for my son's sake, but I want the wins to last and I want us to win a flag and at present we just don't have the cattle to achieve that. We need to draft well and the better picks we get the better our chance of accomplishing this. I'm sick of the yo-yo ladder rises and falls from year to year - I want to be a consistent contender not a consistent under achiever and if that means a few extra loses this year then that's a pill I'm willing to swallow.

Stripes

Of course we don't have the cattle yet - we will need to draft another 10 or so recruits this season and probably at least another 8 or so the following year before we have the list that is a genuine chance of winning a flag.  But in the meantime it is absolutely imperative that the current list learn to win and to win at all costs.  It is stupidity of the highest level to think we can choose to lose for a period of time and then 'flick the switch' to start winning and watch it all fall into place.  When do we make the call to say - ok, we now have the list, let's start winning?  It takes a number of seasons for a club to develop a winning attitude and you would have us not work on that facet for the sake of one higher draft pick?  Sit back and listen to the screaming masses when we go through another 2 years of 'experimental development' and the realization sinks in that it will take another minimum 3 years to now learn how to actually win a game of football.  Newman is gone, Tuck is gone, Foley is gone, Deledio is approaching 30 and the club is still on a learning curve?

I remember some knobnut on here a year or so back preaching the virtues of Worsfold and his tanking strategy of a couple of years ago - how this was the smart way to go about football business and how we at Richmond had no idea.  I'm still waiting to see just how this tanking strategy is going to come together for Worsfold - I'm sure it will make damn fascinating watching over the next couple of years as they 're-tank' this year.  Is this part of the strategy that the pro-tankers see for us in the near future?

Offline dizza

  • Premiership Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2010, 12:05:47 PM »
This is definately one of the most satisfying wins i can remember being there to see. Absolutely fantastic to see them come back from 33pts down, something i don't think i've ever seen us do before.
Push up!

Offline Go Richo 12

  • Richmond tragic, bleeding heart, hopeless cricketer and terrible fisherman.
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 5410
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2010, 12:21:43 PM »
This is definately one of the most satisfying wins i can remember being there to see. Absolutely fantastic to see them come back from 33pts down, something i don't think i've ever seen us do before.
We come back from a mile behind against the Hawks once! Was it 2003? I think Stafford broke Everit's cheek in a ruck contest!

Offline dizza

  • Premiership Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2010, 01:24:04 PM »
This is definately one of the most satisfying wins i can remember being there to see. Absolutely fantastic to see them come back from 33pts down, something i don't think i've ever seen us do before.
We come back from a mile behind against the Hawks once! Was it 2003? I think Stafford broke Everit's cheek in a ruck contest!

ah yes, for some reason i don't remember that game too well (i was only 9 then, i guess that one just slipped my memory!) also come to think of it, i do remember us coming from 4 goals down in time-on to beat the Hawks in i think '05.
Push up!

Offline Stripes

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4264
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2010, 02:15:01 PM »
Why will it be a wasted draft?  Why will our recruiters go from being very professional and very good 12 months ago to being incompetent and useless 12 months later?  What basis do you have for saying that because our first pick is #16 we can therefore only ever hope to achieve a "couple of quick finals visits before dropping down again"?  If you thought that Sunday's win was not worth it at any level - team, club, sponsor or supporter - then I don't know that you will ever be capable of seeing the positives.


Why a wasted draft? - Well if our first pick is at 16 and our next in the 30s and so on our great team of recruiters are going to have their work cut out for them finding average players let alone the talent we need to inject into our structure at the moment. We don't need average battlers. The recruiters may find some 'diamonds in the rough' but we need more than one or two talents, we need a group of them for as we all know, the star teams are those who bring through a group of similar aged talented players. We can't afford another draft such as the one that brought us through gems such as Hughes, Casserley and JON. The more early picks we have the better our future chances to build together as a team. I think our time to lift is not here yet - we don't have the foundation in place to do it. I think our focus should be seeing who is worth keeping, where they are going to play and what are our strengths and weaknesses as a list.

As much as I loved the win on Sunday, I am trying my best to see past the excitment and euphoria of the present and make the hard decisions that will give us the opportunity to be a top 4 team for years to come. Winning or way to mid-ladder is not what we should aim to be and even if we have the best culture, endevour and structure, without the players that's all we can hope to ever achieve.

If you've read many of my posts over the years Smokey you would know I'm usually very positive, probably too positive and supportive in many ways. I am positive about our future but I think this year we have an opportunity to take advantage of our present position and a couple of wins at the end of the season will only disadvantage this. A few wins does not create a winning culture, the processes/structure and determination to win creates a winning culture.

Quote
The Hawthorn loss was valuable only in the fact that it was a further step in proving the effort required to win and be successful at senior AFL level - it taught our team just how much further they had to go to actually win.  We had been learning the same lessons since Round 1 this year and the Hawthorn game was just an extension and further proof of what the team was already well down the path of learning.  You can't make the mistake of isolating a win or a loss as the single influential factor, you must look at the season in it's entirety to judge the improvement or otherwise.

As far as the club goes, our season began after the Hawks game. A game in which we lost. Reading the Cotchin interview, he said the HAwks game was the single most important game of the season to date...yet we lost. Explain that?

Quote
Please explain how you can create a winning culture by the club trying not to win?  Please explain to one of the anti-tankers that "don't get it" how we can develop, transform and build to a premiership without actually winning games of football?  What big picture am I missing by thinking that "wins don't necessarily equate to a winning culture" and that redemption and success will come by deliberately losing?

Who said anything about the team no trying to win? I want the team to fight for every game. I want the players to fight for each other. I want them to fight for club and coach...but that should not be the clubs number one focus. The future success of the club should be the administrations first priority - not the present. If the selection panel can trial more players, try players in multiple positions and try different combinations then we could lose but we could also find out alot more about the list in a year whenthe win/loss record doesn't really matter.

Quote
Of course we don't have the cattle yet - we will need to draft another 10 or so recruits this season and probably at least another 8 or so the following year before we have the list that is a genuine chance of winning a flag.  But in the meantime it is absolutely imperative that the current list learn to win and to win at all costs.  It is stupidity of the highest level to think we can choose to lose for a period of time and then 'flick the switch' to start winning and watch it all fall into place.  When do we make the call to say - ok, we now have the list, let's start winning?  It takes a number of seasons for a club to develop a winning attitude and you would have us not work on that facet for the sake of one higher draft pick?  Sit back and listen to the screaming masses when we go through another 2 years of 'experimental development' and the realization sinks in that it will take another minimum 3 years to now learn how to actually win a game of football.  Newman is gone, Tuck is gone, Foley is gone, Deledio is approaching 30 and the club is still on a learning curve?

I remember some knobnut on here a year or so back preaching the virtues of Worsfold and his tanking strategy of a couple of years ago - how this was the smart way to go about football business and how we at Richmond had no idea.  I'm still waiting to see just how this tanking strategy is going to come together for Worsfold - I'm sure it will make damn fascinating watching over the next couple of years as they 're-tank' this year.  Is this part of the strategy that the pro-tankers see for us in the near future?

Stupidity at the highest level :o :P  Strong words smokey  ;D Is Lids going to take some sort of aging medicine to jump to 30 in a couple of years?  :whistle  Even Foley and Newman have a few years in them left as far as I know! Geelong was a basketcase the year before they began their march. The media was calling for Thompsons head and the whole rebuilding a failure, then all of a sudden 'flick the switch' and bang!

Now I don't actually think they did 'flick the switch' but I do think everything came together it that year. They finally had the cattle, had the understanding of each other and the game plan, grew in confidence and brought it all together. They would not have reached the heights they have unless they had the group of players they have. I think we can do a similar thing if we get the players first.

I think the Eagles will be a great team in the future but their younger stars are not ready yet. I think they will come together in future years but not until their midfield has matured. I hope they don't come together as well as us but you may be eatting your words when teams such as the Hawks, Saints, Freo, Eagles, Melbourne and even Carlskum begin to become powerhouses of the comptetion. I hope I'm wrong there but they made the decision to bottopm out to get the players to develop and if they can develop and educate them correctly then watch out. Do you think GC and GWS won't be successful if they lose in the first couple of years - the AFL vey much doubt it!

Stripes
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 04:28:31 PM by Stripes »

FooffooValve

  • Guest
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2010, 03:23:56 PM »
Stripes, your Hawthorn game point is a non-sequitor. Unless you believe that we tried to lose? The point is not the results of the games (ie wins and losses), it is the attitude the club and the players take towards them.

Belief is far and away more important than an extra draft pick. Tanking is a mirage.

Offline Stripes

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4264
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2010, 04:41:41 PM »
Stripes, your Hawthorn game point is a non-sequitor. Unless you believe that we tried to lose? The point is not the results of the games (ie wins and losses), it is the attitude the club and the players take towards them.

Belief is far and away more important than an extra draft pick. Tanking is a mirage.


Perhaps you missed this comment I made in the last post (it was rather long afterall) -
Quote from: Stripes link=topic=11554.msg196688#msg196688 date=1278476101
Who said anything about the team no trying to win? I [b
want[/b] the team to fight for every game. I want the players to fight for each other. I want them to fight for club and coach...but that should not be the clubs number one focus. The future success of the club should be the administrations first priority - not the present. If the selection panel can trial more players, try players in multiple positions and try different combinations then we could lose but we could also find out alot more about the list in a year whenthe win/loss record doesn't really matter.

I don't want the players to try and lose in fact I want them to try to win. I want the administration though to make the sufficent directions to unobtursively and subtly engineer loses while allowing us in the best position to have a clear undestanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the list and the steps we need to take to create the foundation we need to build from next year.

The Hawthorn lose is important because of the belief that the players obtained from the effort. Wins or loses are neither here nor there, so if we can maintain the belief of the side yet just miss out in some close losses then all the better for our long term future.

Stripes

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2010, 05:10:54 PM »
The hawthorn loss is not important because they lost, it is important because after getting flogged it showed that there is light at the end of the tunnel - that everything they were trying to do would get them what they strived for- a win.

How do you control the players playing to win, yet ensure they lose?  Do you think players would be happy to try their guts out knowing the club is doing everything to stop them winning?

Anyone that thinks a team can consistently lose without any affect on morale, desire, confidence etc has not played in a side that loses nearly every week, probably have not played footy or any competitive sport at all.

All competitive sport is as much about what goes on between the ears as natural talent. More often than not that is what  separates the truly successful from the 'could have beens', not just in sport but in so many aspects of life. A loser mentality will only ever bring one thing - FAILURE
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Judge Roughneck

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11132
  • Sir
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2010, 06:01:33 PM »
How do you control the players playing to win, yet ensure they lose?  Do you think players would be happy to try their guts out knowing the club is doing everything to stop them winning?

I think, for example,

Deledio would be more happy losing games by a goal or two early in his carrer with a young team full of 18-20 year olds.

Rather than win a few meaningless games late in the season with a murder of 27+ year old footballer as has been the case in the past - Hyde, Bowden, Simmonds, Graham, Knobel etc. etc.


Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2010, 06:33:25 PM »
did that answer my question you quoted?
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline WilliamPowell

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 40322
  • Better to ignore a fool than encourage one
    • One Eyed Richmond
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2010, 06:36:19 PM »
Who said anything about the team no trying to win? I want the team to fight for every game. I want the players to fight for each other. I want them to fight for club and coach...but that should not be the clubs number one focus. The future success of the club should be the administrations first priority - not the present. If the selection panel can trial more players, try players in multiple positions and try different combinations then we could lose but we could also find out alot more about the list in a year whenthe win/loss record doesn't really matter.


But stripes correct me if I am reading this the wrong way but you are saying if the selection panel do the things I've highlighted we are going to lose more than we win. I see that is as being the major flaw in your argument so to speak.

The RFC are currently doing what your suggesting and we've started to win.

We've played all but 3 senior listed players this season (McMahon, BrownE & Grimes), they've played all rookies who have been elevated aprt from Gourdis who only got elevated in the last coupple of weeks.

They've tried players in different positions - perfect example Astbury starts as a forward and is now being played in defence

And guess what we've started to win.

The focus has been clear all season, we were told all along that results didn't matter and it was all about development and learning (they call it transformation) but now because the development and what our players have learnt we've started to win.

The focus has not changed one iota since the start of the season and now we are simply witnessing the fruits of all that hard work

It seems to me (and again correct me if I am wrong) you want the focus to remain the same but the results to be different.

I don't think you can have it both ways.

You want them to fight for every game, play for one another, fight for the coach and club but you suddenly want the results to be losses for draft picks

To put it another way it seems to me that you now actually think we should suddenly change course and go out there and lose for draft picks

As I said you can't have it both ways. If you want them out there fighting for everygame then I don't think you put conditions on it

I've said it before we are going to finish bottom 3 or 4, that will get a good early pick considering the conscession to GC17 - let's have some faith in our recruiters that will find us some more gems
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

Offline Judge Roughneck

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11132
  • Sir
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2010, 06:52:51 PM »
did that answer my question you quoted?

How do you control the players playing to win, yet ensure they lose?

1. you play a poor footballer on a good footballer, ie. Andrew Raines on Nick Riewoldt

2. you play kids who might be good instead of old players who are average, ie. Simmonds did not play in 2010 and instead we gave Gourdis or Polak or Graham or Vickery or Westhoff more game time so in 2012/2013 they have more games at AFL under the belt

3. you send in players for early ops.

etc.

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2010, 07:14:55 PM »
Who said anything about the team no trying to win? I want the team to fight for every game. I want the players to fight for each other. I want them to fight for club and coach...but that should not be the clubs number one focus. The future success of the club should be the administrations first priority - not the present. If the selection panel can trial more players, try players in multiple positions and try different combinations then we could lose but we could also find out alot more about the list in a year whenthe win/loss record doesn't really matter.


But stripes correct me if I am reading this the wrong way but you are saying if the selection panel do the things I've highlighted we are going to lose more than we win. I see that is as being the major flaw in your argument so to speak.

The RFC are currently doing what your suggesting and we've started to win.

We've played all but 3 senior listed players this season (McMahon, BrownE & Grimes), they've played all rookies who have been elevated aprt from Gourdis who only got elevated in the last coupple of weeks.

They've tried players in different positions - perfect example Astbury starts as a forward and is now being played in defence

And guess what we've started to win.

The focus has been clear all season, we were told all along that results didn't matter and it was all about development and learning (they call it transformation) but now because the development and what our players have learnt we've started to win.

The focus has not changed one iota since the start of the season and now we are simply witnessing the fruits of all that hard work

It seems to me (and again correct me if I am wrong) you want the focus to remain the same but the results to be different.

I don't think you can have it both ways.

You want them to fight for every game, play for one another, fight for the coach and club but you suddenly want the results to be losses for draft picks

To put it another way it seems to me that you now actually think we should suddenly change course and go out there and lose for draft picks

As I said you can't have it both ways. If you want them out there fighting for everygame then I don't think you put conditions on it

I've said it before we are going to finish bottom 3 or 4, that will get a good early pick considering the conscession to GC17 - let's have some faith in our recruiters that will find us some more gems

It's funny isnt it WP? All season we have been doing what some peoples misguided idea of what tanking actually is and now we start to win games doing that, which they find disturbing or non beneficial.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Courageous win!
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2010, 07:25:30 PM »
did that answer my question you quoted?

How do you control the players playing to win, yet ensure they lose?

1. you play a poor footballer on a good footballer, ie. Andrew Raines on Nick Riewoldt
Honestly, if you were playing for a coach that did that, what would you think of them?

2. you play kids who might be good instead of old players who are average, ie. Simmonds did not play in 2010 and instead we gave Gourdis or Polak or Graham or Vickery or Westhoff more game time so in 2012/2013 they have more games at AFL under the belt
Specific examples, from last weeks team and who you would replace them with?

3. you send in players for early ops.
Any one in mind? Which players from last weeks 22 should go in for surgery?



Whoh back! Isnt Polak an older average player? He's definately not a kid who might be good
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI