Ranking Our Champions

[JohnF]

I was looking through an old Herald Sun newspaper from July 1999 (lmfaooo@me hoarding the Herald Sun) which listed the top 200 footballers of the 20th century.

Unless i'm mistaken there were 17 Richmond players who made the cut:

1.  Ian Stewart (# 6)
2.  Royce Hart (# 12)
3.  Kevin Bartlett (# 24)
4.  Francis Bourke (# 35)
5.  Jack Dyer (# 47)
6.  Jack Titus (# 86)
7.  Roy Wright (# 94)
8.  Bill Morris (# 99)
9.  Geoff Raines (#102)
10. Dale Weightman (#120)
11. Billy Barrot (#121)
12. Terry Wallace -lmfao @ including him (# 136)
13. Dick Clay (# 149)
14. Maurice Rioli (# 159)
15. Michael Roach (# 170)
16. Vic Thorp (# 188)
17. Kevin Sheedy (# 198)

Now, as you all know, anything that appears in the Herald Sun doubles up as toilet paper, but I just use this as a lead in to some discussion about our all time greats. I just wanted to know what any of you older more historically-inclined prix thought about this list. Are these our 17 best players? Do you agree with the order of the list? If the list was done today would anymore Richmond players be included? Some ommitted?

We can only wonder about the players we never saw, but to me, having Jack Dyer listed as our 5th best player and 47th overall is just plain WRONG!

LMFAOOOOOO@the Herald Sun having the likes of Peter Daicos, Gary Ayres and Dermott Brereton listed higher. stuff wits.

I'm also surprised that Royce Hart was so high on the list. The 12th best player of all time? Was he really that good?

[mightytiges]

It's not a bad list in terms of names. Ignoring Terry lol , the only ones there who didn't make our team of the century was Rioli and Disco:

B. Sheedy Thorp Green
HB. McCormack G.Strang Keane
C. Bourke Barrot Clay
HF. Richo Hart Dean
F. Weightman Titus Morris
R: Wright Dyer KB

I/C: Rowe Raines Stewart Knighter (no Cambo John lol )

From that best 200 list:

Stewart is in the right spot for his total footy career but he's not the number 1 Tiger. He only played 87 games for us. He just proved again at Richmond what everyone already knew when he played for the Saints - a superstar for his time.

Dyer is Richmond. 300 games when guys didn't play for that long back then. Coach for 12 years and captian during the 40s. 2 flags. 5 B&Fs. So he would be my number 1 Tiger  . He definitely not #47 of all time  .

KB would be the best player I saw although I only saw his last say 6 years. 403 games, almost 800 goals, 5 flags. Played midfield and then adapted to a forward role. Number 2.

Never saw Royce Hart play except old replays of GFs but he won big games off his own boot from the hardest possie on the ground. I'd guess that's why he's at #12. Leave it to our older folk here on OER lol to say how really good he was. Be top 3.

The Flea was a superstar IMO. If he played in good sides for most of his career he'd be one of the best of all time. Use to always star for Victoria in State of origin during the 80s when players took it seriously. Number 4.

Tie for fifth between Titus who kicked 970 in 17 seasons at FF and
Bourke was courage and class combined. Never forgot the time he had blood pouring down his face yet played on.

As always with these lists they are biased towards the modern era but so is our TOC. Now of course none of us saw these guys play (well maybe Moi lol) but how's this for continued success. From 1919-1944 we won 5 flags, played in 14 GFs (including 7 b/w 1927-1934) plus was runner up again one other time and only missed the final four 4 times in that whole period  . Yet there's only 3 names on this list from that time and only 5 in our TOC. At least double that amount come from our other successful period of 5 flags (and 7 GFs) - 1967-1982.

Just looking at their records blokes like Minogue (captain/coach for 6 years - 2 flags) and Bentley (captain/coach for most of the 1930s - 2 flags) would have got a mention if they spent their whole footy life at Tigerland - Minogue originally came from the Pies and Bentley got the flick and joined Carlton never to return after Dyer's dad wanted him replaced with his son after losing the 1940GF. We must have a heap of others to be such a dominant team for such a long time. Not having tv footage robs them.

I wouldn't have any Richmond players from recent times. The best players show their stuff on the biggest stage in finals, grand finals and S.O.O. Sadly our blokes haven't had enough of this opportunity to fit into a best VFL/AFL 200 list. At his peak Knighter was our classiest player of the modern era IMO.

Well that's my attempt at being a RFC history nerd. Reading "Tigerland" and researching newspaper articles for the OER's history page makes it all stick in your head.

[JohnF]

It's not a bad list in terms of names. Ignoring Terry lol , the only ones there who didn't make our team of the century was Rioli and Disco:

B. Sheedy Thorp Green
HB. McCormack G.Strang Keane
C. Bourke Barrot Clay
HF. Richo Hart Dean
F. Weightman Titus Morris
R: Wright Dyer KB

I/C: Rowe Raines Stewart Knighter (no Cambo John lol )

From that best 200 list:

Stewart is in the right spot for his total footy career but he's not the number 1 Tiger. He only played 87 games for us. He just proved again at Richmond what everyone already knew when he played for the Saints - a superstar for his time.

Dyer is Richmond. 300 games when guys didn't play for that long back then. Coach for 12 years and captian during the 40s. 2 flags. 5 B&Fs. So he would be my number 1 Tiger  . He definitely not #47 of all time  .

KB would be the best player I saw although I only saw his last say 6 years. 403 games, almost 800 goals, 5 flags. Played midfield and then adapted to a forward role. Number 2.

Never saw Royce Hart play except old replays of GFs but he won big games off his own boot from the hardest possie on the ground. I'd guess that's why he's at #12. Leave it to our older folk here on OER lol to say how really good he was. Be top 3.

The Flea was a superstar IMO. If he played in good sides for most of his career he'd be one of the best of all time. Use to always star for Victoria in State of origin during the 80s when players took it seriously. Number 4.

Tie for fifth between Titus who kicked 970 in 17 seasons at FF and
Bourke was courage and class combined. Never forgot the time he had blood pouring down his face yet played on.

As always with these lists they are biased towards the modern era but so is our TOC. Now of course none of us saw these guys play (well maybe Moi lol) but how's this for continued success. From 1919-1944 we won 5 flags, played in 14 GFs (including 7 b/w 1927-1934) plus was runner up again one other time and only missed the final four 4 times in that whole period  . Yet there's only 3 names on this list from that time and only 5 in our TOC. At least double that amount come from our other successful period of 5 flags (and 7 GFs) - 1967-1982.

Just looking at their records blokes like Minogue (captain/coach for 6 years - 2 flags) and Bentley (captain/coach for most of the 1930s - 2 flags) would have got a mention if they spent their whole footy life at Tigerland - Minogue originally came from the Pies and Bentley got the flick and joined Carlton never to return after Dyer's dad wanted him replaced with his son after losing the 1940GF. We must have a heap of others to be such a dominant team for such a long time. Not having tv footage robs them.

I wouldn't have any Richmond players from recent times. The best players show their stuff on the biggest stage in finals, grand finals and S.O.O. Sadly our blokes haven't had enough of this opportunity to fit into a best VFL/AFL 200 list. At his peak Knighter was our classiest player of the modern era IMO.

Well that's my attempt at being a RFC history nerd. Reading "Tigerland" and researching newspaper articles for the OER's history page makes it all stick in your head.

lmfaoooo! Moi, what was Jack Dyer really like?

I'll save my rant on Richo and Knights getting in the TOC before Campbell for another time.

Agree with your listing of the top 5, but I'd probably have Titus and Bourke above Dale Weightman, even though Dale Weightman was my favourite player and the reason why I started following Richmond. If you think I'm nuts about Campbell you should have seen me as a little kid about Flea!

Weightman always seemed to dominate on the biggest stage in the Big V games, but then, so did Collingwood's Gavin Brown (as my Collingwood supporting old man made me aware of many times when I was telling him that Flea would have been a champion in a better team).

I didn't see much of Roach, but for those who saw him week to week, was he better than Richo? Must have been a sore point with some that Richo made the team of the century and Roach didn't.

It's also interesting to see that Hart was ranked Higher than KB when KB played longer, kicked more goals, dominated finals just as Hart did and won 5 best and fairests to boot.

[froars]

Johneff said:  lmfaoooo! Moi, what was Jack Dyer really like?

MT head lol said: Now of course none of us saw these guys play (well maybe Moi lol)

I'll answer this thread when i'm not working so bloody hard - but i'm keepiing an eye on it very closely 

But how Stewart got rated ahead of Royce is mindboggling.

[WilliamPowell]

I didn't get to see Royve play live but do remember watching him on Seven's Big League replays when I was a little tike.

From what I can remember watching and hearing what some other great Tiger players have said about him - especially the fact he was playing CHF for his size then he'd come in at number 3 - possibly number 2.

I have been reading the Jack Dyer Story and Jack pays specail tribute to Mopsy Fraser and says he was the best player he's seen and Mopsy isn't even on the list

I didn't see much of Roach, but for those who saw him week to week, was he better than Richo? Must have been a sore point with some that Richo made the team of the century and Roach didn't.

Interesting question JohnF - I saw Roach play week after week  He and Flea Weightman were my favourites back then.

Is Richo better than Roach? If the question was is Roach a better set shot for goal than Richo - that's an easy question YES.

I would lean more towards Richo being the better player simply because of his ability to take contested marks. Roach never had to compete with the 2 or 3 (5) opponents that Richo does. Also, Roach had the likes of Weightman, Raines, Rioli, Wiley, Rowlings (need I go on) delivering the ball to him, coupled with having a decent CHF in Cloke for part of his career.

Richo hasn't had that luxury.

The other thing and I'll probably get howled down about this but on occassion against the better fullbacks in the competition Roach did struggle. He'd kick his bags of 6,7 and 8 goals against the low teams but would struggle at times against the likes if Rod Austin/Geoff Southby of Carlton, Marlarkey at Geelong even McCormack at C'wood (the one who ended up playing for us ).

Pitted agaisnt the best in the league today Richo IMO gets more of the ball than Roach did in the same situation.

[mightytiges]

MT head lol 

Took a few years but I was waiting for someone to make that play on my nic's initials lol 

But how Stewart got rated ahead of Royce is mindboggling.

3 brownlows spread across two clubs helps.

[froars]

The two Brownlows at St Kilda shouldn't count at RFC IMO.  I really can't remember seeing him a lot, so i might be a bit unfair. 

[JohnF]

Yeah the rankings were for their overall achievements, not for their contributions to a particular club.

Even so, amazing that they had Hart, Bartlett and Bourke ahead of Jack Dyer.

If anyone's interested of the players still active or just retired this year:

Wayne Carey # 5 (too high in my opinion)
Robert Harvey # 21 (just after he had won back to back brownlows, so perhaps a tad high)
Nathan Buckley # 87 (about right)
Chris Grant # 98 (absolute Bullschit!)
James Hird # 107 (lmfaoo, suck that Bomber fans)
Glen Jakovich # 115
Andrew McLeod # 178

[mightytiges]

I didn't see much of Roach, but for those who saw him week to week, was he better than Richo? Must have been a sore point with some that Richo made the team of the century and Roach didn't.

It's hard to compare the two as Roach was a true FF while Richo is more a CHF/HHF who played FF. I agree with WP's summary of both of them although I would add that Roach knew where and when to lead unlike Richo who leads towards the boundary line (although Richo IMO improved his  leading this year). You wouldn't see Disco kick 1.6 a number of times in his career either. Also the game was played differently back then. More one-on-one stuff with your direct opponent in the early 80s. No flooding or an extra man in defence in front of the full forward. I find it hard to split them as both had/have their weakness and strengths over each other. Almost complete opposites in a way. Roach was predictable as Richo is unpredictable.

If it was a contest of making a daggy item of clothing trendy amongst supporters then it's Disco by a mile . Bring back the dufflecoat with the number 8 on the back! 

[mightytiges]

I'll save my rant on Richo and Knights getting in the TOC before Campbell for another time.

The OER couch is now available for use. The post-2004 period is about burying the past so lie down and let it all out John 

If you think I'm nuts about Campbell you should have seen me as a little kid about Flea!

I can only imagine your reaction John when the Flea's #3 guernsey was passed onto Duncan 

[WilliamPowell]

If it was a contest of making a daggy item of clothing trendy amongst supporters then it's Disco by a mile . Bring back the dufflecoat with the number 8 on the back! 

Spot on MT bring back the duffle coat - the only difference is mine would have a big 3 on the back with a 8 on one sleeve and a 4 on the other until I ripped off the number 4 in 1983 . I don't remember ever replacing that number 4

[JohnF]

I'll save my rant on Richo and Knights getting in the TOC before Campbell for another time.

The OER couch is now available for use. The post-2004 period is about burying the past so lie down and let it all out John 

If you think I'm nuts about Campbell you should have seen me as a little kid about Flea!

I can only imagine your reaction John when the Flea's #3 guernsey was passed onto Duncan 

LOL, I think I've been chewing Wayne Campbell a little too much lately, I should give it a rest for a while (lmfaooo, as if I will).

LMFAOOOOOOOOO@the number 3 jumper passing from one of the most co-ordinated players we've ever had to one of the most motor-skill deficient players of all time. lmfaoooooo@being too ashamed to wear the number 3 on my jumper after seeing Duncan for a few seasons.

[mightytiges]

the only difference is mine would have a big 3 on the back with a 8 on one sleeve and a 4 on the other until I ripped off the number 4 in 1983 . I don't remember ever replacing that number 4

Poor old Mark Eustice  . At least one supporter per game would sing out "Eustless"!

Those numbers WP aren't a bad combo to have for next year though - Deledio, Tambling and Techno Roach.

[WilliamPowell]

Poor old Mark Eustice  . At least one supporter per game would sing out "Eustless"!

haha "useless Eustice" was the cry I remember

Those numbers WP aren't a bad combo to have for next year though - Deledio, Tambling and Techno Roach.

Tambling = excitement machine
Deledio = skill and looks classy 
Techno Roach = has bulked up acr9oss the shoulders but still looks a bit small - little legs - but there is a clear difference

Bring on the kids

[bluehouse]

William Powell, thanks for your comments. Like you no doubt I was a huge fan of Roach and really rate Richo. I think your comparative critique of the 2 forwards was quite enlightening.